Author Topic: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)  (Read 10064 times)

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Offline kevinkore3

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 05:54:37 pm »
Yeah, but ARM doesn't have compatibility with Z80 and I don't think ARM makes any processors that slow :P

Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 07:54:26 pm »
Take a look at the cortex m series. Actually this gave me an epic idea.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 01:24:48 pm »
They already have a fully functional z80 emulator for ARM. Why aren't they using it to make new calculator designs, if they want to continue the 84+ series?
If anything, I would hope they don't re-use the emulator from the TI-Nspire, risking breaking compatibility even more with older models. I bet that some parts of the emu are already slowed down, so they could remove speed restrictions, but like the HP 50g, it would still be a waste of a processor power. However, I would rather see those calcs stick to Z80 family so they remain compatible.

Offline DrDnar

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 08:25:55 pm »
It's probably just a French version of the TI-84 Plus C SE. The dimensions might be smaller, but the internal hardware will most like be the same old thing.
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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2014, 03:30:57 pm »
Earlier, I removed the 84+CSE faceplate and it's incredible how few things TI would have to change on the current calc case to do a French re-release as the 83 CE. Just change the top text near the LCD and the F1-F5 keys and you're done. For the text on the faceplate and keys they just have to translate the text then they can leave the rest of the calculator case intact. I seriously don't get the need to rename calcs, though. Casio is doing it with their older models in France and it's confusing.

Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2014, 06:12:35 pm »
I simply don't get why we have the privilege of having our own models, which in the case of Casio are not even in French.

Offline willrandship

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2014, 06:17:55 pm »
I would bet it's for Canada more than France. No offense to France, but Canada is close to the US, a fair amount bigger, and depends heavily on US merchandise, especially in technology. (Wherever it doesn't come from China, anyway :P) Plus, Quebec has, from what I hear, a bunch of social rules about using French. That would make demand for French equipment (on the label, not just as a setting) higher demand than in France, which handles international language issues more, being a part of Europe.

Just a thought.

Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2014, 06:29:09 pm »
French people barely speak English anymore actually. This is not true in Quebec where the CSE is already officially available, while in France it is not.

Offline willrandship

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2014, 09:50:19 pm »
Well, I was probably wrong then. Wouldn't be the first time :P

For the record, ARM implementations are cheaper than Z80, especially at low speeds, and they take less power. The nspire's hardware does cost a fair amount more than the 84+, but keep in mind it runs code well over 200 times faster. (The Z80 has very poor cycle density when compared to ARM. I don't even have to take word size into account.) It also has significantly more RAM. 32 MB vs 32 KB addressable at any time.

Let me make a quick cost sheet.

MCU: $4.14 (Cortex-M3 w/ built-in 44 MHz oscillator, 32 KB RAM, 256 KB Flash, and it can execute from RAM, not to mention you can write for it in C without worrying as much about code bloat)

ROM: $0.52 for 4 MB of Flash in an SPI chip (the internal flash is small and inconvenient to write to, and we can just copy data from this to the RAM for execution, leaving the internal flash for the OS) An SD card slot would be a completely reasonable addition as well, since it is basically the same style of device. (SD cards can use SPI as a communication protocol, although it's slower than their normal protocol)

Since the ARM MCU implements internal timer interrupt mechanisms and its clock is about 3 times faster than the z80, there's no real need to put in the external crystal timers present on the 83+SE and above.

I'm not going to bother comparing things that would be almost exactly the same, like the keypad (which can just hook to 16 I/O pins) and the screen (the same screen would work fine, but other options would be cheaper and better)

Now, for the existing Z80 systems:

CPU: A SMD 20 MHz-capable CPU costs $10.12, and as it does not include an internal oscillator, it would need an external crystal (just a few cents, really) This is the cheapest 15 MHz capable Z80 I could find on my distribution site. (you don't ebay production parts)

RAM: Since the Z80 does not have internal RAM, you need to get parallel synchronous SRAM. A suitable 128 KB chip costs $0.94

ROM: Once again we need a parallel synchronous interface, meaning more expensive parts. $0.99 for a suitable 2 MB Flash ROM

So, assuming the architecture is otherwise similar, we come to $12.05 for the Z80 without including most of the unnecessary peripherals, vs $4.66 for a much faster, simpler ARM-based solution. Granted, that's no nspire, which would be significantly better, but even without considering the time saved on the math (Cortex M3 has hardware multiply and divide, handles 4x the math at once) the ARM version would vastly outperform the Z80.

Since TI clearly doesn't care about assembly compatibility, the best way I would see for them to use this style of design would be to rewrite the 83+ BASIC interpreter for ARM, such that programs are cross compatible. Then the vast majority of their users' programs would still function. To an extent they did this on the platforms they have. They're not 100% compatible, but if you know 84+ BASIC you won't be very lost in the 89, except perhaps by the new interface.

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2014, 11:31:28 pm »
In Quebec, while there are rules about using French, I think they are not enforced or valid on electronics, because of the threat of companies refusing to sell their merchandises here and I doubt that people would like that. Also, only one political party really enforce language rules hardcore, and that political party recently lost elections by a wide margin. As long as people offer customer service in French they are fine. Quebec market is much smaller than France and a lot of Quebec people speak English well too, even if their native language is French, simply because we are surrounded by English speaking states and provinces.

For video games, most games that we get here are the same name as in USA, while in France, they are often renamed (eg Lylat Wars vs Star Fox 64 or Illusion of Time vs Illusion of Gaia). On the other hand, in Quebec, movies are often renamed entirely when translated (the most notable example being Naked Gun series), while in France, the title is sometimes translated literally (eg Terminator 3)
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:33:23 pm by DJ Omnimaga »

Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2014, 03:41:08 am »
On the other hand, in Quebec, movies are often renamed entirely when translated (the most notable example being Naked Gun series)
That actually happens in France too.

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2014, 11:51:35 pm »
Yeah true, although I noticed that the titles are sometimes closer to the original than in Quebec, now. Eg:

US: Terminator 3: Rise of the machines
France: Terminator 3: Le soulèvement des machines
Québec: Terminator 3: La guerre des machines

Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2014, 03:40:04 am »
Yeah indeed.
Oh by the way : another reason why it would be weird that it's for Québec : TI never released Québec only models AFAIK.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2014, 12:26:22 pm »
Yeah over here the only difference is that the standard 83+ comes with the Francais app pre-installed.

Offline DrDnar

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Re: Imagine if the 84+C was 6 MHz (color 83+ coming soon?)
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2014, 10:42:15 pm »
Now, for the existing Z80 systems:

CPU: A SMD 20 MHz-capable CPU costs $10.12, and as it does not include an internal oscillator, it would need an external crystal (just a few cents, really) This is the cheapest 15 MHz capable Z80 I could find on my distribution site. (you don't ebay production parts)

RAM: Since the Z80 does not have internal RAM, you need to get parallel synchronous SRAM. A suitable 128 KB chip costs $0.94

ROM: Once again we need a parallel synchronous interface, meaning more expensive parts. $0.99 for a suitable 2 MB Flash ROM

So, assuming the architecture is otherwise similar, we come to $12.05 for the Z80 without including most of the unnecessary peripherals, vs $4.66 for a much faster, simpler ARM-based solution. Granted, that's no nspire, which would be significantly better, but even without considering the time saved on the math (Cortex M3 has hardware multiply and divide, handles 4x the math at once) the ARM version would vastly outperform the Z80.
This analysis is wrong, if for no other reason than that TI manufacturers their Z80s and SRAM themselves. In fact, they're embedded into the ASIC along with the USB controller and most other peripheral logic. TI no doubt pay licensing fees for the USB controller core IP and they may or may not pay for the Z80, but regardless, they don't pay $10 for them, and I highly doubt it's more than a dollar or two total. TI simply mass-produces their own SoC ASICs using their own factories.

The point about XIP flash memory is valid, however. (Wouldn't it be neat, however, if they replaced that flash chip with some embedded FRAM in the ASIC, for a one-chip system-on-a-chip? (Probably wouldn't be worth the re-masking costs.))
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