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Calculator Community => Casio Calculators => Topic started by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 09:22:03 am

Title: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 09:22:03 am
I emailed the guy that responded to me to give me my free Prizm. Here's (the important part of) what I said:

Quote
1. Support for arbitrary-precision arithmetic. The Nspire family of calculators have this, and it makes them tremendously powerful. I also have an Nspire, and it is a tough decision for me to choose between the two calculators I own because while the Prizm has many advantages over the Nspire, the Prizm cannot perform operations involving very large numbers (say, 23200)
2. Showing what each function in the catalog takes in. When I use the catalog to select a function, I often don't know what inputs I should type in, or the order that they go in. This can become quite frustrating because I would then have to experiment with the function to see how to use it. Reserving a line in the catalog menu to display what inputs a function needs and the order they go in would be very useful.
3. A better font. You might think this is a minor complaint, but the font of a calculator contributes tremendously to the look and feel one gets when using it. I believe the font is too thick (it looks like everything is in bold), and also too large in most places. It also has serifs, which makes the calculator look a bit outdated, and characters such as the lower case "p" don't line up with the rest of the characters. Changing the font to something that is sans-serif and fixes the problems I mentioned would improve the look and feel of the Prizm significantly.
4. Fix the logarithm button. This is only a minor complaint, but pressing the logarithm button will give a log function that doesn't display what base it is in. However, if you go to the math menu, and then logab, you get to specify the base as well, which I prefer.
5. Allow third-party C and assembly development. Not doing so has been TI's greatest mistake, and it is one that you can take advantage of. Allowing third-party development will attract a large audience of programmers to buy the Prizm because they are tired of jumping through so many hoops to develop on the Nspire. The programs they will make will also benefit Casio - believe it or not, many of the programs made for calculators aren't games, but rather extremely powerful utilities that extend the capabilities of the calculator even further! Just look at what TI-84 developers have done over time: they made extremely fast prime factoring programs, added support for arbitrary-precision arithmetic, added the ability to type lowercase letters, and even allowed the calculator to recover from RAM clears! Opening the Prizm to third-party development will make the Prizm even more powerful, and it would be much easier for Casio to release an SDK than it would be to program all the features third-party developers would have added.

Implementing these suggestions, which can be done just through a software update, would make the Prizm a near perfect calculator, and it would be an easy choice for me, as well as others, to pick between this and an Nspire. I truly hope that Casio will listen to these suggestions.
I know the guy I emailed probably wasn't in the programming department of Casio, and that most of their important decisions are probably made in Japan (he's in Washington state), but it was worth a try. I at least got a response! Here's his reply:
Quote
Thanks for your feedback and detailed suggestions.  I'm glad you are enjoying your Prizm and I hope you share the word with other students and teachers; word of mouth is the best way to spread the news.
 
I will certainly pass your suggestions on to those that make the decisions, but wanted to take a minute to respond to a few of your points:
 
1. Arbitrary-precision arithmetic: I admit I'm not familiar with this, but you've piqued my interest.  I will be looking into it.
 
2. Catalog Help: An absolutely fabulous idea -- I don't make these decisions, but I'm going to push for this one.
 
4. The logarithm button: Have you tried the MATH soft-menu in Run-Matrix?  I think this is the button you're speaking about.  From Run-Matrix, just press F4, then F2 and you'll get the log-of-any-base template.
 
5. Third Party C Development: From a certain perspective, I'm totally with you.  I've got some programming background and I've seen what a nice community of modders there is out there.  And it certainly would, as you said, open up our calculator to a great deal of demand.  However...  we're a primarily a provider of calculators to the education market.  Can you imagine how teachers would react if calculators could be modified?  You and I both know that modifications would include things like faking a memory reset or other things that would facilitate cheating.  Until we figure out a way to allow modding AND keep calculators safe for testing purposes, we're at an impasse.
He didn't respond to my suggestion about fonts :( And he says that third-party development won't happen until they can keep it safe for tests  :'( I wonder if my other suggestions, especially catalog help, will be implemented in the next OS update though.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Spenceboy98 on March 03, 2012, 09:30:51 am
Cool. I hope they go for the catalog help. It gets a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Spyro543 on March 03, 2012, 09:38:18 am
There already is some third-party C development going on- some people have made third-party SDKs, but Casio endorsing it (or whatever the correct word is) would be nice.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 09:39:21 am
Yeah, that was what I meant.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: AngelFish on March 03, 2012, 09:42:41 am
1) I already released an ASM arbitrary precision math library with the basic functions awhile back, so...
2) I would like this
3) Meh, I'm fine with the font personally
4) The vast majority of people don't know the difference between Log() and Log_n(). Using Log_N() instead of the standard Log() would be confusing and strange to most users. I personally think it's better to keep it the way it is (and have an option to choose?)
5) It's already allowed though. All we really need is proper documentation.

Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 09:44:56 am
Where can I find your math library?
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: alberthrocks on March 03, 2012, 09:45:40 am
I don't know if they side with the 3rd party development, but they've been passive about preventing it.

Anyway, very interesting indeed. :) I will likely send a reply too sometime soon.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: AngelFish on March 03, 2012, 09:46:21 am
It should be in the "Libraries" topic in the subforum. If not, you'll have to get it from Ashbad or Kerm on Cemetech. I don't believe I have any copies.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: turiqwalrus on March 03, 2012, 09:48:53 am
Cool. I hope they go for the catalog help. It gets a bit confusing.
well, at least we're trying to document everything already :D
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: critor on March 03, 2012, 09:49:49 am
Let's all migrate from TI to Casio! :P
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 09:54:50 am
Ahhh, I see qwerty. Great work with the library, but a library ≠ a program, and it won't be as fully featured as if Casio themselves implemented all the catalog to support arbitrarily large numbers. Then again, that would be a PITA for them to do, so kudos to TI for having the patience to make their Nspire support arbitrary-precision arithmetic. :)
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 03, 2012, 12:20:58 pm
Like with TI, couldn't the community simply get together and not bother publicly making tools to cheat available? I noticed on the Nspire people stopped updating OSLauncher and I'm sure TI wanting to prevent cheating is a reason for that. On Casio cheating programs are not available yet and I'M sure the Casio community could work together as a compromise to not publicly advertise such program on their site and discourage users from cheating and this would be enough to help Casio, except maybe a few minority of students who might happen to find such program on Mediafire or P2P sites, and given most calc users are illiterate about programming and calc programs, I doubt a lot of people outside the community will even be able to install cheating tools, and the ones from the community probably won't bother using them if it means convincing Casio and TI to allow 3rd party development.

Currently Casio did not lock down 3rd-party APPs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried in the future.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Juju on March 03, 2012, 12:34:57 pm
For question 5, I think TI should have the same reaction, as in wishing to allow third-party development in C while keepimg calculators safe for testing purposes, but instead they are like, BLOCK EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Darl181 on March 03, 2012, 01:08:42 pm
Let's all migrate from TI to Casio!
Hm, maybe people could start putting these in their sigs if TI stays with the way they're traipsing along now.
:TI:

Also I sent him a question of my own a few days back, about the ability to install the emulator on a flash drive:
Quote from: Self
Hi, a question about the emulator, the license of which is offered in this promotion.  Can it be installed on a flash drive or similar, so you can bring it with you?
If not, is this planned for the future?
Quote from: Nathan (Casio)
Hi <snip>,
 
That's a fascinating question.  Let me respond with a question of my own, since I don't often install software on flash drives: wouldn't something like that require zero copy protection?  The ability to do something like that would clearly be useful, but if it short-circuited our ability to market our product then it would amount to shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Standard copy protection as I understand it would either require a registry entry (which would require installation on a machine, not a flash drive) OR would require a disc in the drive (which would make a flash drive installation pointless, I believe).  Am I missing other options?
 
I hope these questions make sense and I really am interested in your response.
 
Kind Regards,
Nathan
Aside from how amazing it is to get a response from an actual person rather than an auto-responder hooked up to Cleverbot or something (insert :TI: smiley again :P)..any ideas?  The only sort of thing I can come up with is some sort of ID that you register somewhere, kind of like the calc's serial number.  Perhaps part of the validation process would involve checking some db for the same ID?  But then that might require internet access...

I'm not too familiar with this sort of stuff :/
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 01:12:45 pm
By emulator you mean the Nspire Student Software right?
I don't know how it would be possible to install it on a flash drive, but I don't see much of a purpose - Goplat's emulator is perfectly fine for me.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Darl181 on March 03, 2012, 01:27:34 pm
By emulator you mean the Nspire Student Software right?
I don't know how it would be possible to install it on a flash drive, but I don't see much of a purpose - Goplat's emulator is perfectly fine for me.
I mean the Prizm emulator.  I don't have an Nspire, nor do I plan on getting one :P
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: sammyMaX on March 03, 2012, 01:41:18 pm
Ahh, didn't read properly :( But it would be hard for Casio to allow the emulator to be run off a flash drive and keep it from being pirated - this hasn't worked in the video game industry, so it probably won't work here.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: lkj on March 03, 2012, 01:45:55 pm
Nothing has worked in the video game industry yet.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Dingus on March 03, 2012, 02:57:32 pm
For question 5, I think TI should have the same reaction, as in wishing to allow third-party development in C while keepimg calculators safe for testing purposes, but instead they are like, BLOCK EVERYTHING.
That's because the Casio people are customer orientated and polite but while the TI people are a bunch of as oles so I wouldn't expect that to ever change.  They are what they are.  Evil is as evil does.  Btw,  People here don't like the way TI treats them but they still spend their money with TI.  Why is that?  In protest against the way ti treats me as a customer I didn't buy an nspire and I havn't bought one and I won't buy one.  I don't need their additude nor their nshit.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Scipi on March 03, 2012, 04:00:43 pm
I'll see if I can dig out my suggestions I sent him a while ago...

Quote

<...>

I have to say, I really was surprised by how well the Prizm handles
compared to TI calculators. There are a lot of functions and tools
that are more readily available on the Prizm than on a TI calculator.

Something I'd like to suggest however, is perhaps the inclusion of
some of your programming capabilities. There is a surprisingly big
community behind developing for these calculators, as you've probably
seen with sites like Cemetech. Furthermore, it would also serve to get
students taking your course to learn programming topics and ideas,
which can be very helpful in mathematics and beyond. Nowadays, there
aren't many opportunities for students to get introduced to
programming, and that could be cause for some concern. TI calculators
used to counteract that. Many students were introduced to programming
through TI Basic. However, with recent developments regarding the
Nspire and Ndless, TI has shown that they have more or less forsaken
that role. From what I know about Casio, you guys don't want to
suppress that. All I can really say is, capitalize on that.
Advertising that your product has excellent programming capabilities
is definitely a plus. ;) (You could also think of it this way. If we
can get Doom, video players, and Gameboy color emulators on a platform
that TI does its hardest to lock down, just think about what could be
developed for a platform that embraces advanced, low level
programming) :)

(^If that sounds incomprehensible, forgive me, I'm way too tired. lol) :P

Thank you.

His response:

Quote

<...>

 You are not the first to mention programming and we are
investigating the possibility but I am in no position to comment on the
likelihood of that happening.

Quote
Thank you for your response to my comments. It's nice to hear that
Casio is actively looking into the possibility. I hope for the best.
:D

Quote
Hello again,

My investigation was very quickly cut short.  I have been instructed to respond (and I quote): "Casio does not have a plan to release SDK for PRIZM"

That doesn't mean that I and a few others won't keep suggesting it or trying alternate ideas; but R&D is concerned with inappropriate use.

We will continue to hope for the best.

Quote
Ok, I under stand the means to keep the calculator appropriate for
schools. Personally, in my own opinion there wouldn't need to be a
proper SDK released for future calculators. I think many people would
like to see perhaps just the ability to run more powerful languages on
calc, or to see a beefed up version of CasioBasic. Although that might
be the same as an SDK now that I think about it. :S However, something
that could be suggested, is improving the performance of CasioBasic as
well as, perhaps, making it closer to OO languages seen all around
today. I know that, since I stated programming with TI Basic, while it
whetted my appetite for programming, it severely hurt my ability to
transition into computer languages like C/C++... Luckily I managed to
catch on and now I'm working towards a Bachelors Degree in Computer
Science. However, others might not be able to catch on like I did and
because Basic is so different from modern languages, it can hurt their
understanding. So moving towards a more OO paradigm can help a lot.
Also, I wonder if CasioBasic could ever be modified to be compiled
rather than interpreted. Steps would have to be taken to ensure it
can't hurt the calc, but from what I've seen with Axe and Grammar
(although Grammar is interpreted) it's a very popular choice, and it
can speed up the language dramatically.

I also know that a lot of people chafe sometimes at the memory
capacity of calculators. There have been some quite large applications
developed for previous products that have forced some users to remove
other applications due to space requirements. I know that RAM is
relatively cheap nowadays (I can get a 1 Terabyte 3.0 USB Portable
Hard Drive for about $130 off of newegg) So I know that increased
memory storage could possibly be a viable option that would go well in
your favor. :)
Although that's just my idea... I've always wondered what it would be
like if there were to be a device meant specifically for developers
that would allow them to program and work on code on the go. Now quite
a miniature computer, but not just a cheap toy. :) But I digress. :P

Hopefully, at the very least, future products don't completely forsake
the programming capabilities. TI did that with the Nspire series and
it hurt them quite badly. :P

Thanks for looking into it, I appreciate it.

Quote
Very good suggestions, <:trollface:>.  I think the best hope is that we'll somehow improve the programming feature set.  I have some programming background and am familiar with C++, Java and Python and I agree that the existing Basic functionality is tough to return to.

When we are working on the next iteration of our technology we'll see what we can do!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 03, 2012, 11:40:20 pm
Did he really reply with a trollface? O.O
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Scipi on March 04, 2012, 12:50:11 am
No. I replaced my name with one XD
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 04, 2012, 01:16:48 am
Lol ok :P. It's nice that they actually responded to your suggestions, though. Hopefully if they decide to not support 3rd-party programming, at least if they continue not trying to block it, then it will be just good enough.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Scipi on March 04, 2012, 01:56:52 am
Yeah, my own idea would be to have some kind of compromise. Perhaps in the form of a very fast (possibly compiled) form of Basic (or other language) and perhaps even make it OO.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: SimonLothar on March 04, 2012, 02:59:11 am
Quote
2. Catalog Help: An absolutely fabulous idea -- I don't make these decisions, but I'm going to push for this one.
These CASIO guys are funny. They had a Catalog Help implemented on the fx-9860 slim and dropped the idea with the following systems.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 04, 2012, 03:00:06 am
Really? Wow I wish they still had it. It would have been useful when I tried learning BASIC lol. There's an add-in that adds such feature on the TI-83+.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: JosJuice on March 04, 2012, 03:19:23 am
Also I sent him a question of my own a few days back, about the ability to install the emulator on a flash drive:
Quote from: Self
Hi, a question about the emulator, the license of which is offered in this promotion.  Can it be installed on a flash drive or similar, so you can bring it with you?
If not, is this planned for the future?
Quote from: Nathan (Casio)
Hi <snip>,
 
That's a fascinating question.  Let me respond with a question of my own, since I don't often install software on flash drives: wouldn't something like that require zero copy protection?  The ability to do something like that would clearly be useful, but if it short-circuited our ability to market our product then it would amount to shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Standard copy protection as I understand it would either require a registry entry (which would require installation on a machine, not a flash drive) OR would require a disc in the drive (which would make a flash drive installation pointless, I believe).  Am I missing other options?
 
I hope these questions make sense and I really am interested in your response.
 
Kind Regards,
Nathan
Aside from how amazing it is to get a response from an actual person rather than an auto-responder hooked up to Cleverbot or something (insert :TI: smiley again :P)..any ideas?  The only sort of thing I can come up with is some sort of ID that you register somewhere, kind of like the calc's serial number.  Perhaps part of the validation process would involve checking some db for the same ID?  But then that might require internet access...

I'm not too familiar with this sort of stuff :/
Well... There aren't really any effective methods of copy protection for files that can be put on flash drives freely. In fact, the removal of copy protection (and the installer) is exactly what makes it possible to put it on flash drives. Less DRM = more convenience for the user.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Eiyeron on March 04, 2012, 04:47:43 am
Quote
2. Catalog Help: An absolutely fabulous idea -- I don't make these decisions, but I'm going to push for this one.
These CASIO guys are funny. They had a Catalog Help implemented on the fx-9860 slim and dropped the idea with the following systems.

Yup, go see the Test mode, in a menu, you can change all the options, but just see the Syntax Helper, not turn it on
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: fxdev on March 04, 2012, 08:31:49 am
Quote
These CASIO guys are funny. They had a Catalog Help implemented on the fx-9860 slim and dropped the idea with the following systems.

This is Casio's policy for years. The help functionality is an exclusive fx-9860G Slim feature.
Or compare this with the fx-7400GII series: The predecessor had 20k of RAM and a crappy display. What did Casio? Took a totally crippled fx-9860GII code base and a piece of sh** of LCD, just to "convince" people this is a refresh of a legacy design.
They could have used an fx-9750GII without USB instead.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: GB on March 04, 2012, 10:21:44 am
One thing I think would go well on the Casio Prizm is a "Custom" menu like what's on the TI-85 and the TI-86, where you can look things up in the catalog and place them in a menu for your own use.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Jonius7 on March 04, 2012, 08:49:29 pm
Overall, Casio's response to sammyMaX's is much better than TI would offer. I think I emailed TI about 2 or 3 times on various issues and they never responded. And some other people's responses back from TI were just lame, if I can find them in the Omnimaga forums somewhere...
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Adriweb on March 04, 2012, 11:13:27 pm
Yes, that's a sad point about TI-Cares.... on some stuff, they juste aren't good.

Hopefully, since I'm having good relations with high up people at TI, I can ask stuff directly to the right people and submit bug reports etc.... Like everywhere in any other situation at life, "knowing people"/"having contacts" helps...

Do you want to send me stuff you wanted an answer on ? I can forward them to TI and then email you back their answer :)




Also, I just read the original post of this topic, and it seems casio still has a long way to go to catch up with the Nspire stuff.
At least at a Math level (eg : catalog, log, font etc.)
Maybe they have some few good people at the support team to balance with the not-so-good rest of the Prizm ? :P

I'm actually not really trolling, here, as some people might think, but it's just some ideas I'm having when I see some suggestions about the prizm platform like that.

But prove me wrong about that if you want, it can only be better for me, I don't know the prizm platform since I don't own one :P
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 05, 2012, 12:34:59 am
Adriweb, do you also do 84+ stuff? There's a big topic on Omni listing many TI-OS bugs that have yet to be fixed.

As for the Prizm I think the reason why it's much inferior to the Nspire CX in terms of math functions and specs (although Kerm is working on a 3D grapher) is because all Casio wanted was to make a new FX-9860G calc but with color and a bit more archive, keeping it similar to all their old models and appealing to 83+ users, but introducing colors.
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Adriweb on March 05, 2012, 01:51:45 am
Adriweb, do you also do 84+ stuff? There's a big topic on Omni listing many TI-OS bugs that have yet to be fixed.

I don't have much relations with the z80 people, but maybe I can try...
Title: Re: Casio's Response to My Suggestions
Post by: Jonius7 on March 06, 2012, 06:31:16 am
I would have liked to get a 84+ Keypad for my TI-nspire (black is ok, but the original blue is of course preferable). Apparently I heard it isn't available in Australia though, and the only other option is Ebay.