Author Topic: When A.I. cheats  (Read 13373 times)

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Offline Zera

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When A.I. cheats
« on: February 12, 2010, 04:49:30 pm »
First and foremost, this is something of a rant.

When you're playing computerized versions of tabletop games or puzzles, you usually have the option of playing against a computer opponent. Admittedly, some A.I. will have the advantage of knowing the most underhanded strategies to win; but as long as these strategies are legitimate plays, I wouldn't necessarily complain about the difficulty. When the A.I. blatantly cheats or breaks the fundamental mechanics of the game, then I have an issue with the game itself.

I recently downloaded a computerized version of Hnefatafl. Since I doubt many people are familiar with the game, the objective and play is fairly simple: You begin by playing either the attacking or defending side of two armies. If you're playing the defending side, then your objective is to move your king to any of the four corners to safely escape to board. If you're playing the attacking side, your objective is to capture the other army's king. Pieces can move any number of spaces in a straight line, provided their path is not obstructed. An enemy piece is captured by sandwiching it between two of your own pieces, but the king may only be captured by surrounding it from all ends. At the end of the first match, you switch sides and play the opposing army. The outcome is determined by who won both matches, or if there's a draw, who made the most captures overall.

Now, in this version, you sometimes have to play multiple games against the same NPC. In particular, there is one NPC who requires you to play three whole games. (six matches total) Should you lose even one of these games, the NPC automatically wins. Even if you have two flawless victories and lose the third game, the NPC still wins. The first two games are fairly simple. After that, the NPC blatantly breaks the game mechanics by "summoning the power of the Norse gods." This effect *destroys* a piece from your army -- usually a piece that you've strategically placed to prevent the NPC from winning. Right at the end of the match, he will successfully destroy any piece you use in attempt to obstruct the escape route of his king; thus, even if you won the last two games, you lose the entire campaign.

These kind of abilities were never present in the actual Hnefatafl board game. They, infact, undermine the entire element of strategy. No matter how you arrange your pieces, the NPC can destroy them at its own discretion. It's like if you were playing a board game with someone in-person, and they just started removing your pieces from the board because they wanted to. Would you even bother to play against them? No. I don't think so. So why do some game developers think that this kind of slap-in-the-face approach to implementing difficulty is going to work in a computerized version of the game? :P

For reference, this is a Hnefatafl setup:

« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:56:39 pm by Zera »

Offline Tribal

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2010, 05:19:37 pm »
That does sound completely stupid that such a ability would be allowed  :-X
The game(although I have no idea why) kinda reminds me of the game of Go, I guess just because of the way pieces are captured XD

Offline {AP}

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2010, 05:40:44 pm »
I feel ya, mate.
Though, I hate the underhanded strategies too. (YEs, even the one's that are legal moves in game.)

However, I've learned something from your topic...
I learned that I want to play Hnefatafl. Really badly.

So...
Thank you. =)

Offline jsj795

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2010, 07:38:27 pm »
lol i really want to play Hnefatafl too. haha great name that I cannot pronounce
But the game does seem to be really fun o.o
I love those kind of games


Spoiler For funny life mathematics:
1. ROMANCE MATHEMATICS
Smart man + smart woman = romance
Smart man + dumb woman = affair
Dumb man + smart woman = marriage
Dumb man + dumb woman = pregnancy
2. OFFICE ARITHMETIC
Smart boss + smart employee = profit
Smart boss + dumb employee = production
Dumb boss + smart employee = promotion
Dumb boss + dumb employee = overtime
3. SHOPPING MATH
A man will pay $2 for a $1 item he needs.
A woman will pay $1 for a $2 item that she doesn't need.
4. GENERAL EQUATIONS & STATISTICS
A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband.
A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.
A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
A successful woman is one who can find such a man.
5. HAPPINESS
To be happy with a man, you must understand him a lot and love him a little.
To be happy with a woman, you must love her a lot and not try to understand her at all.
6. LONGEVITY
Married men live longer than single men do, but married men are a lot more willing to die.
7. PROPENSITY TO CHANGE
A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't.
A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change, and she does.
8. DISCUSSION TECHNIQUE
A woman has the last word in any argument.
Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

Girls = Time * Money (Girls are a combination of time and money)
Time = Money (Time is money)
Girls = Money squared (So, girls are money squared)
Money = sqrt(Evil) (Money is also the root of all evil)
Girls = sqrt(Evil) squared (So, girls are the root of all evil squared)
Girls = Evil (Thus, girls are evil)
*Girls=Evil credit goes to Compynerd255*

Offline {AP}

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2010, 07:39:57 pm »
Zera, when you get the chance, can you type out how to pronounce that?

I've tried like 40 things in my head and nothing's coming out right.

Offline jsj795

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 07:46:17 pm »
I'm thinking H is silent, so it's like, Nefatafatle?
idk -_-;;;


Spoiler For funny life mathematics:
1. ROMANCE MATHEMATICS
Smart man + smart woman = romance
Smart man + dumb woman = affair
Dumb man + smart woman = marriage
Dumb man + dumb woman = pregnancy
2. OFFICE ARITHMETIC
Smart boss + smart employee = profit
Smart boss + dumb employee = production
Dumb boss + smart employee = promotion
Dumb boss + dumb employee = overtime
3. SHOPPING MATH
A man will pay $2 for a $1 item he needs.
A woman will pay $1 for a $2 item that she doesn't need.
4. GENERAL EQUATIONS & STATISTICS
A woman worries about the future until she gets a husband.
A man never worries about the future until he gets a wife.
A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend.
A successful woman is one who can find such a man.
5. HAPPINESS
To be happy with a man, you must understand him a lot and love him a little.
To be happy with a woman, you must love her a lot and not try to understand her at all.
6. LONGEVITY
Married men live longer than single men do, but married men are a lot more willing to die.
7. PROPENSITY TO CHANGE
A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't.
A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change, and she does.
8. DISCUSSION TECHNIQUE
A woman has the last word in any argument.
Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument.

Girls = Time * Money (Girls are a combination of time and money)
Time = Money (Time is money)
Girls = Money squared (So, girls are money squared)
Money = sqrt(Evil) (Money is also the root of all evil)
Girls = sqrt(Evil) squared (So, girls are the root of all evil squared)
Girls = Evil (Thus, girls are evil)
*Girls=Evil credit goes to Compynerd255*

Offline ztrumpet

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 09:13:54 pm »
Bad AI!!!  Go play by the rules! :P

Sounds like a fun game!  I also would like to play this. ;D

Offline Zera

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 10:15:29 pm »
Neh-pah-tah-pull

If it helps, English would probably spell it more like "Nepataple." You can just call it "King's Table," since that is a common translation.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 11:48:35 pm »
I hear you Zera. This happens a lot in Starcraft. In Starcraft, when you send units to an expansion base, the computer will know it. The computer will also often build in function of what you build, so if you fill your base with cannons, prepares to be sieged by tanks with longer range attacks.

In some RPGs, some enemies or bosses also seems to read your mind. If you revive dead characters, the boss will kill them again afterward. If you attempt restoring HP to a low HP char, the boss will attack first and attempt to kill the character afterward. I also noticed that certain mini-games included in games manipulates luck. In Star Ocean The Second Story, when you do the bunny races and Bunny Shoes is one of the prizes, save state on the emulator and try choosing another prize to bet on. The Bunny shoes prize bunny will win! Then reload your state (which resets the random seed to right when you saved state) and select the bunny shoes prize. You'll lose!

Offline Builderboy

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 01:46:27 am »
Pshhh lazy programmers :P they couldn't program a good enough AI so they had to cheat!  Well at least I am now interested in this game :) (and it's pronunciation XD)

Offline Zera

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 08:20:33 am »
I hear you Zera. This happens a lot in Starcraft. In Starcraft, when you send units to an expansion base, the computer will know it. The computer will also often build in function of what you build, so if you fill your base with cannons, prepares to be sieged by tanks with longer range attacks.

Forget that. Any time you fight against a CPU, they rush you before you can even build any structures. :P

When a friend introduced me to the game, we always had a 50/50 win / lose ratio with CPU players, because they rushed weaker units into our bases before we had time to build anything. I always had to go the route of immediately building canons around both our bases to deal with the units, or canon-rush the CPU bases and end the match within a couple of minutes.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2010, 01:09:25 pm »
actually not all the time. If you build some defense or weak units early sometimes you're safe from early rushes. Sometimes the comp won't even rush in my case. I notice when you build no denfense or units they tend to know and attack, though x.x

Offline Zera

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2010, 02:23:56 pm »
I notice when you build no denfense or units they tend to know and attack, though x.x

Maybe that's why they keep rushing me. I try not to waste any time with weaker units. I try to go straight for upgrades and advanced structures. I had never considered the possibility that the A.I. would somehow know what I was up to, and adjust its strategy dynamically.

My usual strategy (since I play Protoss) is to go straight for a mass production of dragoons and rush them into enemy bases. Most games, I have to fortify my own base with at least a few canons to prevent early rushing. If I'm feeling particularly vengeful, I move my drones straight into the enemy bases and build canons there. :P

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2010, 02:38:34 pm »
yeah in RTSes it's always a bad idea to tech up without defending, else often you get attacked when not ready. I always try to keep a few defense in case an eraly attack occurs, then build some units to help the defense. Upgrades can wait a bit, altough they eventually become essential.

Offline Galandros

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Re: When A.I. cheats
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 07:47:49 am »
While playing against computer I always feared cheating...
I like the idea of the board game! I am going to play it... I enjoy table games and I was looking something new like that one.

About A.I.
There are some RTS that the computer gets extra resources outcome to have advantage.
Some AI only attack you if they have more points/army than you. Coward AI... Even in fog playing. :P
Hobbing in calculator projects.