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Calculator Community => TI Calculators => General Calculator Help => Topic started by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 07:09:49 pm

Title: TI/Casio IO cables
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 07:09:49 pm
Hi, I lost my 84's IO link cable a month or so ago and have been looking for an alternative since.  I haven't been able to get a replacement.
Just today, I found the IO cable that came with my 9750.  I tried it with the TI calcs (math class ftw) but it didn't work.

So, I was wondering if there was a difference between ti's link cables and casio's link cables.  The plugs look just the same, but the TI calc always show "Error in XMit" as if nothing was plugged in.

TIA

Clarifying edit: I was meaning calc-calc linking

Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Deep Toaster on May 03, 2011, 07:14:48 pm
The two calculator models probably use totally different link algorithms, so the cables are probably different to match the calculator. I don't know much about hardware though, so I can't answer.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: qazz42 on May 03, 2011, 07:34:57 pm
and let us not forget you need the driver from the TI cable to work with the Casio one too :)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 07:36:35 pm
Just to clarify, I'm talking about calc-calc linking using an IO cable.  I'll edit that in.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: werekitty13 on May 03, 2011, 08:46:51 pm
It might be a simple wiring issue. Not sure, but I think that one might switch around the wires at the ends, so one's transmit is the other's receive, while the other is straight across, so there's a little more software interaction. Just a guess, but it seems likely to me.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 08:53:03 pm
So, what you're saying is the cords might be switched around?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on May 03, 2011, 09:38:17 pm
That's quite possible.  An easy way to test it (if you have two 83+-series calcs) would be to use Calcsys's link console and see if all the bits come out flipped (e.g., if one calculator sends 55, the other receives AA.)  If the ground is swapped with one of the data lines, though, you won't be able to send anything at all.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 09:43:19 pm
Well, I only have one calc and since I don't have a link cable I can't really send CalcSys to another's calc...
Random idea that just might work: would it be possible for an ASM program or hook to intercept the link port commands and switch them?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: calc84maniac on May 03, 2011, 09:44:34 pm
Well, I only have one calc and since I don't have a link cable I can't really send CalcSys to another's calc...
Random idea that just might work: would it be possible for an ASM program or hook to intercept the link port commands and switch them?
Wait wait, if you have no other calc, how are you testing linking?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 09:45:06 pm
I'm not :P

I'm kind of just guessing, taking stabs in the dark...

EDIT: i've tried it in the past with some of the various 83+'s and 84+SE's in my math class, hence the "(math class ftw)"
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on May 03, 2011, 09:58:26 pm
Well, I guess if you have Calcsys on your own calc, you could connect it to somebody else's calc and then have them attempt to send a variable.  The first thing you see should be (if I remember correctly) 73 68 00 00 - if the data lines are swapped, that would come out as 8C 97 FF FF.

You could, if you wanted to, write assembly programs to send and receive variables over a "twisted" cable (if that is, in fact, what it is.)  It wouldn't even be terribly difficult.  Getting the system I/O functions to work correctly, though, couldn't be done without modifying the OS.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 10:03:35 pm
Sounds like a plan, I'll try that tomorrow.
Thanks ;D
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: leafy on May 03, 2011, 10:05:21 pm
I thought I/O is a universal cable? So it wouldn't be any different? Or maybe it's modified.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on May 03, 2011, 10:09:48 pm
Well, all the TI calculators use the same low-level protocol, but it's not an official standard or anything - the only devices that use it are TI calculators, and devices like the CBL and calculator robot that are designed to work with TI calculators.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: willrandship on May 03, 2011, 10:21:51 pm
IO is usually expressed in single pins, on dev boards. there's no communication standard, it's just a bit mapped to in your memory. Arduino I/O pins work exactly the same way.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: Darl181 on May 03, 2011, 10:36:47 pm
I'll try the trick mentioned above, and if that fails then I'll try asking at HCWP or something...
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on May 04, 2011, 01:08:14 am
I think this was discussed before here somewhere. Something is different with the internals of the cables if i remember correctly. Not sure of the specifics.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's different?
Post by: willrandship on May 04, 2011, 01:22:36 am
well, the only difference there can be internally is changed wire positions inside. otherwise, there's not much to the cables, except the wire itself.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 04, 2011, 03:29:00 am
I've heard something about wires being crossed or switched or something, but I don't remember where it was from so it might not be a reliable source... :P

But it's looking more and more like that's the case.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: z80man on May 04, 2011, 03:50:17 am
I think I have heard of this before. So I'll need to keep this in mind on the Prizm's 84+ emulator project. To do so the emu would first have to test which cable type is connected then set whether an inverse of data needs to be done or not.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: critor on May 04, 2011, 05:57:18 am
Unlike Casio, TI doesn't use the standard "audio" plug.
Check:

(http://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/23/13/53/minija10.gif)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: JosJuice on May 04, 2011, 09:54:22 am
Unlike Casio, TI doesn't use the standard "audio" plug.
Check:

(http://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/23/13/53/minija10.gif)
I don't understand... What's the difference?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: critor on May 04, 2011, 09:55:41 am
Can't you just see ? . . .
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: JosJuice on May 04, 2011, 09:58:24 am
No, I can't see anything other than the black part being a bit thicker, but I don't understand how that would affect anything...
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: critor on May 04, 2011, 10:00:42 am
No, I can't see anything other than the black part being a bit thicker, but I don't understand how that would affect anything...

Maybe you should try.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: JosJuice on May 04, 2011, 10:06:52 am
Try to plug in a Casio cable in a TI calc? I don't have any Casio cables or calcs.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: critor on May 04, 2011, 10:10:56 am
Any standard audio plug is the same as the Casio plugs.

The problem is that you have to be very carefull when plugging it, or you'll get contact issues.


For example, the calculator does temporary freeze (cursor and keys) if it's not plugged correctly.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: Compynerd255 on May 04, 2011, 10:13:16 am
Wait - the Casio I/O cable is different from the TI I/O cable? Well that stinks. I just cut a Casio cable in half to use with my Arduino - does this mean it's not gonna work? I did find the expected red and white wires and the coil of ground wires, but are they wired differently beyond that?

Also, I do know that Casio link cables, since they are angled, do not fit in 84+ calculators (the indent around the port is too tall). That might be your problem as well.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: JosJuice on May 04, 2011, 10:21:37 am
Any standard audio plug is the same as the Casio plugs.

The problem is that you have to be very carefull when plugging it, or you'll get contact issues.


For example, the calculator does temporary freeze (cursor and keys) if it's not plugged correctly.
Hmm... When using my audio 2.5 mm plug (headphones) with my 84+SE, the issue of one sound channel disappearing is frequent. I have to move the plug a bit to make it work. The OS always freezes when headphones are plugged in, but I assume it would be different if a calc is plugged in instead.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 04, 2011, 11:19:30 am
Unlike Casio, TI doesn't use the standard "audio" plug.
Check:

(http://i73.servimg.com/u/f73/13/23/13/53/minija10.gif)
Oh...So, because the recessed ring is further down on the plug, does that mean it's likely to fall out and/or the contacts may not match up?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: calc84maniac on May 04, 2011, 11:31:11 am
Any standard audio plug is the same as the Casio plugs.

The problem is that you have to be very carefull when plugging it, or you'll get contact issues.


For example, the calculator does temporary freeze (cursor and keys) if it's not plugged correctly.
Hmm... When using my audio 2.5 mm plug (headphones) with my 84+SE, the issue of one sound channel disappearing is frequent. I have to move the plug a bit to make it work. The OS always freezes when headphones are plugged in, but I assume it would be different if a calc is plugged in instead.
The reason that the OS freezes is that the headphone lines are always low, so the OS thinks another device is starting a transfer.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 04, 2011, 03:20:52 pm
Well, I guess if you have Calcsys on your own calc, you could connect it to somebody else's calc and then have them attempt to send a variable.  The first thing you see should be (if I remember correctly) 73 68 00 00 - if the data lines are swapped, that would come out as 8C 97 FF FF.

You could, if you wanted to, write assembly programs to send and receive variables over a "twisted" cable (if that is, in fact, what it is.)  It wouldn't even be terribly difficult.  Getting the system I/O functions to work correctly, though, couldn't be done without modifying the OS.
So, what port should I be watching?  I was watching the first one, labeled "link" and it just changed from 3 to 2 for a bit and back to 3 again.

EDIT: or is it the "link console"
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 05, 2011, 07:52:25 pm
Tried it again, and the link console just seemed to freeze.  A few times, an "FF" appeared on the bottom half inverted, so I'm guessing it was part of the
8C 97 FF FF

Can someone say what port I'm supposed to watch, or is it the link console.  TIA

btw I did try asking at hcwp, but I didn't really get any useful answers so yeah :P
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 07, 2011, 03:16:29 am
I was wondering if someone who has two TI calcs and a Casio cable would be able to test this, since I only have one TI calc.
An easy way to test it (if you have two 83+-series calcs) would be to use Calcsys's link console and see if all the bits come out flipped (e.g., if one calculator sends 55, the other receives AA.)
TIA again :)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: jnesselr on May 07, 2011, 03:56:05 pm
Whoa, triple post.  I'm pretty sure Qwerty.55 has both calcs, and has messed with that.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Munchor on May 07, 2011, 03:56:56 pm
@Darl181, even in most extreme conditions, I think triple post should be avoided.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 07, 2011, 03:57:46 pm
Triple post over the course of 4 days, check the dates :P

Spoiler For getting sort of annoyed...:
If you're easily offended, feel free to not read this.  Not trying to offend anyone anyway, but JIC ;)

How about if you made a topic about a question you needed answered and as soon as you ask the question the topic dies.  Even after you bump it.  Twice.  Maybe you even ask at HCWP and barely get any help at all other than "it should work", after you explicitly say it doesn't.  It's like that MSD8X thread, where I had to bump it ~3 weeks later and only because of an IRC convo I got an answer.  (also, I wasn't the only one who benifited from an intelligible answer, try going through the rest of the thread) So yeah, that's where the triple post came from.

Also btw, you'll notice some triple posts in the Tio thread, of various updates and such.  Nobody pointing it out there.

Spoiler For Spoiler:
After reading this through, it does sound kind of rude, but I'd just like to put it out there, because it seems like a recurring thing.  So yeah :P

I'm pretty sure Qwerty.55 has both calcs, and has messed with that.
I talked with him on IRC last night, he didn't mention messing with it but when I can I'm going to get a multimeter and find out what input for what part goes where.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables--what's the difference?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on May 09, 2011, 10:34:00 pm
Tried it again, and the link console just seemed to freeze.  A few times, an "FF" appeared on the bottom half inverted, so I'm guessing it was part of the
8C 97 FF FF

Can someone say what post I'm supposed to watch, or is it the link console.  TIA

Yes - I was referring to the "Link Console", not the "Port Monitor" - sorry I wasn't clear.

If you're only seeing FFs, that would seem to indicate it's not working properly.  On the other hand, if critor's right about the plugs being different, that could be causing problems as well, and maybe if the plug were seated differently it might be made to work.  It'd be interesting to test it with two TI calculators, and see if the individual lines can be controlled as expected.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 09, 2011, 10:38:58 pm
I'm hoping it's something as minor as the plug needing to be sanded a bit...

Just got a multimeter today, mint-condition, from Radioshack.  Doesn't work :P
So yeah, I'll try returning it and getting a new one tomorrow and/or seeing if there's a continuity tester in-store that I would be able to use.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: z80man on May 10, 2011, 12:02:22 am
I have both a Casio and a TI if you want me to test something. I don't have two TI's but I could borrow a friend's for a test.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 10, 2011, 08:41:12 pm
Got a working multimeter today ;D and was able to test it.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Jack_plug.png/300px-Jack_plug.png)
Details of a Casio cable:
The sleeves (labeled as 1) are connected.
The tip (3) is connected to the ring (2) on the other side.  Same both ways.

Looks to me like the 'data lines' are swapped...


EDIT: ndless to say I don't have a TI cable to do the same test with...but I'm suspecting that with TI cables, the tip on one side is connected to the other and the ring is connected to the ring.  w00t.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 16, 2011, 06:28:15 pm
Bump.
I think, what might make it work, would be some sort of hook that intercepts the stuff sent to/received from the link port, and virtually swap the tip and ring.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: calc84maniac on May 16, 2011, 07:51:21 pm
Bump.
I think, what might make it work, would be some sort of hook that intercepts the stuff sent to/received from the link port, and virtually swap the tip and ring.
You can't cause the input from port 0 to change, though. That's how the OS gets the state of the link lines, after all. And also, you would have to switch the inputs/outputs on exactly one of the calculators.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 16, 2011, 07:54:28 pm
True.  looking at the picture above, the parts labeled 2 and 3 would have to be switched, and most likely on my own calc.

I'm hoping those are ports 1 and 2?

Quote from: IRC
[17:58:58] <+OmnomIRC> <calc84maniac> I don't think that would be possible without a hardcore OS patch
Ok, might it be possible to make a program or app that simulates the OS'es linking?  xMit, I think it's called?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 16, 2011, 08:13:13 pm
Darn, I wish the cables were the same. My old 83+ cable is almost completely broken now so if it stops working forever, I'm gonna be stuck with like 4 Casio cables.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 16, 2011, 08:16:18 pm
Yeah x.x
This looks like another one of those things that multiple people would benefit from ;D
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Deep Toaster on May 16, 2011, 11:44:08 pm
DJ, you need a new cable D:

It'd be cool to be able to switch back and forth between TI and Casio cables though.

This looks like another one of those things that multiple people would benefit from ;D

It does seem that way :)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Compynerd255 on May 17, 2011, 10:27:54 am
Darn, I wish the cables were the same. My old 83+ cable is almost completely broken now so if it stops working forever, I'm gonna be stuck with like 4 Casio cables.
I would like to know: Are standard audio patch cables switched like the Casio cables, or straight-through like the TI cables?
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: What's the difference?
Post by: Darl181 on May 19, 2011, 01:08:45 am
That's an idea.  I don't know though...
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Darl181 on July 19, 2011, 01:17:47 am
Bump.  With the contest over, hopefully there's more time for someone to do something like this. ;D

Got a working multimeter today and was able to test it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Jack_plug.png/300px-Jack_plug.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Jack_plug.png/300px-Jack_plug.png)
The sleeves (labeled as 1) are connected.
The tip (3) is connected to the ring (2) on the other side.  Same both ways.
Looks to me like the 'data lines' are swapped...
EDIT: ndless to say I don't have a TI cable to do the same test with...but I'm suspecting that with TI cables, the tip on one side is connected to the other and the ring is connected to the ring.  w00t.

And yes, I'm aware of ↓↓
I think, what might make it work, would be some sort of hook that intercepts the stuff sent to/received from the link port, and virtually swap the tip and ring.
You can't cause the input from port 0 to change, though. That's how the OS gets the state of the link lines, after all. And also, you would have to switch the inputs/outputs on exactly one of the calculators.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: AngelFish on July 19, 2011, 02:27:55 am
I'm pretty sure Qwerty.55 has both calcs, and has messed with that.
I talked with him on IRC last night, he didn't mention messing with it but when I can I'm going to get a multimeter and find out what input for what part goes where.

I did mess with the IO cables a bit and got them to send signals. The TI kept freezing up for some odd reason while it was connected. Unfortunately, I appear to have lost my cable, so I'll have to buy a new one.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: JosJuice on July 19, 2011, 04:04:33 am
Bump.  With the contest over, hopefully there's more time for someone to do something like this. ;D
The contest started a few days ago. We're busy. :P
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Darl181 on July 20, 2011, 11:04:44 pm
I was meaning the axe contest was over so hopefully an 8x programmer would be able to focus on something new :P

I was thinking more along the lines of a bit of software that virtually switches tip and the ring.  Which part of the plug is the ground btw? /me hopes it's the sleeve)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Darl181 on November 18, 2011, 06:51:44 pm
*necrodoublepost*
I finally got around to converting a Casio cable..now all the parts connect directly to each other. (tip-tip, ring-ring, sleeve-sleeve) ;D
Haven't tested it with a calc yet, but the multimeter says it's working so whee ^_^
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: renatose on November 18, 2011, 07:45:19 pm
It would be funny to get TI an Casio calculators to communicate with each other in any way ;)
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: aeTIos on November 18, 2011, 07:50:58 pm
Not possible due to 200% different link protocol
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Juju on November 18, 2011, 09:17:11 pm
So TI cables and Casio cables aren't wired the same? Odd.
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Darl181 on November 30, 2011, 10:15:58 pm
Ok, I tested it with a classmate's 83plus and it didn't work :/

Question:
Can someone with a multimeter and TI cable check which part of the plug is attached to what part on the opposite end?  (ie tip <-> tip etc)
reference: (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Jack_plug.png/320px-Jack_plug.png)
1 = sleeve
2 = ring
3 = tip
Title: Re: TI/Casio IO cables: Inter-compatibility?
Post by: Darl181 on December 16, 2011, 12:20:07 am
2-week bump? :P

I keep trying to make HCWP to ask there but stuff keeps happening at the house x.x