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General Discussion => Music Talk and Showcase => General Discussion => Topic started by: ruler501 on July 29, 2012, 11:18:41 pm

Title: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on July 29, 2012, 11:18:41 pm

I currently play saxophone/clarinet and am going to learn how to play piano probably. I would like to learn how to write good music. What would be a good way to learn how to write good music? I have messed around with musescore before and gotten some success but they never sound quite right. I would also like to know how to understand how music works when listening to it. I would be very thankful for any free online resources for learning.

Attatched is one solo i tried to write about a week ago so you have an idea of what i know(just enough to play the instrument :P )
EDIT temporarily removed pdf so i could remove my real name

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: squidgetx on July 30, 2012, 12:12:43 am

All you need really (for a classically oriented tune) is a basic understanding of keys and maybe chords and chord progressions.

Basically one way to write/analyze music is to first determine the key of the music. Your solo looks like it wants to be in D major, judging by the F#,C#, and occasional Bnaturals. However, some parts flirt with being in harmonic D minor (F natural, C#, B flat). The reason it "doesn't sound quite right" is because of the inconsistency and mixing of the two keys. You're 'allowed' to modulate between D major and harmonic D minor, but you have to be consistent in which parts of which phrases are which key. I would recommend adding some F naturals OR B naturals to passages that don't sound quite right. Notice that the last 3 measures are in a consistent harmonic D minor and that they sound perfectly fine.

In writing other pieces, pick a key and stick to it. Remember that even though they're called "accidentals," they're not accidental at all. Accidentals mark a foreign chord or key modulation that is consistent across all the parts (if you're writing for more than one part).

One other random thing, powers of 2 aren't just for computers and calculators. Baroque-era music commonly used phrases of 4,8,or 16 measures for a reason--it sounds 'complete.' Try seeing if you can divide your pieces into phrases-- musical sentences--that have a start, middle, and end (the end typically being the tonic note, in the case of your solo it's D). And it's easiest to do it in powers of 2.

If you wanna get fancier (and this is important for writing pieces with multiple voices) i can talk about chords and chord progressions if you like

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on July 30, 2012, 12:14:39 am

If you could talk about chords that would be nice. I want to learn as much as I can

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: squidgetx on July 30, 2012, 12:43:37 am

Sure.

So, let's say you want to write something in D major. There are two ways to approach music writing: the first being outlining the chords to fit the melody, and the other fitting the melody to the chords. Both ways are fine. I'll start with what I favor, which is writing the chords first.

So in a major scale, there are 7 notes, hence there are 7 chords you can use. The convention for naming these chords: roman numerals I-VII, uppercase means major, lower case means minor. So in order, they are
I ii iii IV V vi vii^o
The seventh chord is diminished, don't worry about what that means, I'll get into it later. But try playing each chords' triad (aka arpeggio). A major triad/chord is major because the 2nd note is 4 half-steps higher than the root, or first note (this distance, or interval is called a major third). A minor third is a distance of 3 half steps. A major triad is built out of (with respect to the root note) a root, a major third, and a fifth.
I: D F# A D (sounds major)
ii: E G B E (minor)
iii: F# A C# F (minor)
IV: G B D G
V: A C# E A
vi: B D F# B
vii^o C# E G C# (notice this one sounds different- it's root, minor third, diminished fifth)

So let's write a phrase to match a I chord in D major. The basic 'rules' are that the first and last note of the chord duration must be "in" the chord, or one of the 3 notes that make up the triad. If we took the first 4 notes of your solo, D A B C# and made it D A B D that would 'fit' in the I chord structure. (As a side note, DABC# does fit into a chord, which is the I7 chord or major seventh, but we'll get into that later)

Try playing D A B D in unison with any other measure that follows the same rules (first, last note part of chord I, other notes part of key) and you'll notice it sounds surprisingly good.

Now that you can write a melody line to a chord, we'll move onto chord progressions. Chord progressions are just patterns of chords put together. One of the most common is I-IV-V-I. You can write any of your own progressions, though some flow more smoothly than others.

So, try writing two lines that, for one measure each follow the chord progression I IV V I. The second line can just be whole notes if you want, but you'll notice immediately that there is now a much stronger structure and resonance to the piece.

Now, matching chords to a prewritten melody can be a bit more difficult just because there are a lot of other types of chords and stuff that you (and I) don't know about. But we can try, and once we've got the chord progression from the melody, we can begin to write other lines that follow the same progression. Often pieces are developed using both methods; chord-first offering a stronger structure, and melody-first offering more variations and freedom.

Anyway let's take Twinkle Twinkle and figure out the chord progression.
D D A A B B A
G G F# F# E E D
A A G G F# F# E x2
D D A A B B A
G G F# F# E E D
So let's see... It is in D major judging by the ending on D and the F#. The first line looks to be a I chord. Then..IV chord (G and D both lying in the G-B-D triad)..Next..V chord (A, E lying in the A-C#-E triad) for 2 lines. Then back to I and IV for the end. Notice that matching a chord to a melody is quite flexible. We could've said that only the G-G in the last line is a IV chord and the rest is a I chord. Either way works with what information we do have. Try writing another line that follows the first progression and matching it with Twinkle. Then try using a different chord progression and see how the sound changes.

Once you get the hang of writing with chord progressions, try making up chord progressions of your own. Each chord doesn't have to last the same amount of time as the others, and mix up minor and major chords from the 7 options you have available. Or just mess around with all the variations one set can give you. Half of popular music these days only uses 4 different ones; those being I,IV,V,vi (there was another thread about that somewhere).

Note that there are also much more than these 7 chords, there are chords for the 3 variations of minor scales if you wanna write in minor, augmented, diminished, and about 50000 types of seventh chords as well as something called neopolitan.

Spoiler For more complicated chords:

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: AngelFish on July 30, 2012, 01:03:47 am

What Squidgetx is talking about is a field called music theory. If you want to get more involved in it, there's a tremendous amount of literature on the subject available at libraries and online. Here's a more in-depth introduction to it http://www.whitakerblackall.com/blog/music-theory-for-beginners/ (http://www.whitakerblackall.com/blog/music-theory-for-beginners/)

Now, here's some advice that I'm going to ask that you ignore until you fully understand what I mean with it:
Music is an art and so is its composition. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to compose music. Music exists to say something. Learning the theory will not allow you to make "music," it will allow you to make pleasant arrangements of sound, as well as analyze and understand the detailed structure of compositions by others. The theory teaches you how to express yourself, it is not a creative force in and of itself.

Good luck with your studies. This is an interesting field.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: squidgetx on July 30, 2012, 01:06:33 am

Quote from: Qwerty.55 on July 30, 2012, 01:03:47 am

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to compose music...The theory teaches you how to express yourself, it is not a creative force in and of itself.

This is definitely true. Don't worry too much about all the rules I just spouted. The rules are meant to be broken. They are only guideposts to set you on your way :)

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on July 30, 2012, 03:20:03 am

I'm working on adding this into the solo I'll post the fixed up version tomorrow(well technically today now)

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 30, 2012, 11:27:14 am

Unfortunately, I do not know much about the musical notation, because I use DAW's that are grid-based and am more visual, but one thing I notice is that for more complex music, where there is more than one track, a lot of people have troubles getting the bassline key right. I'll use one of your song Squidgetx, as example:

What I am talking about is, for example, at the 0:06 mark in this video, one bass note is off-key. In some cases, this can destroy the song melody completely. In this case it isn't too bad, however, but I often saw happy hardcore and trance remixes of popular songs on youtube that sounded good until the bassline became off-key. Things need to fit together. It's all about experiementing and trial and error, though.

Also, if you got for a multi-track song, with beat, basslines, melody, choir pads, for example, you need to do a minimum of equalizing or balancing, so that 1) Sounds don't get drownded out by others and you can barely hear the beat, for example. Or the opposite can happen, where everything is recorded low except one sound channel, so the user has his volume up, then all of a sudden, R.I.P. headphones.

Also, don't use a potato to record your music. If you can record directly into your computer, it's even better, although some mics are quite good too.

One thing to remember, however, is that music making is often trial and error. You may need to try different instruments or melodies before you are satisfied with your work. Also using real instruments requires practice, so at first it's best to practice with existing songs (easier ones first). You won't play Steve Vai solos on your first attempt at playing guitar. Also, you need to learn a bit about the structure of certain music genres if you are going to make music similar to that. For example, when I made trance, I listened to some popular european artists first to get familiar with the genre. You don't have to stick to mainstream genres, though, since music, after all, is a form of inspiration and freedom.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Yeong on July 30, 2012, 11:39:23 am

For me, equalizing is kinda hard part since different equalizing can change the song complete. (my v1 of battle against fate... It was more awful than current version lol bc all the guitars were in same loud volume. Now it's better except that loud drums D:)

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 30, 2012, 12:12:53 pm

Quote from: DJ_O on July 30, 2012, 11:27:14 am

Also, don't use a potato to record your music. If you can record directly into your computer, it's even better, although some mics are quite good too.

Lmao! Best Advice Ever. :D This is a really cool topic, and something I'm going to be getting into as well. :) I love music, but I don't understand the technical side of it very much.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: squidgetx on July 30, 2012, 08:49:18 pm

Quote from: DJ_O on July 30, 2012, 11:27:14 am

Unfortunately, I do not know much about the musical notation, because I use DAW's that are grid-based and am more visual, but one thing I notice is that for more complex music, where there is more than one track, a lot of people have troubles getting the bassline key right. I'll use one of your song Squidgetx, as example:

What I am talking about is, for example, at the 0:06 mark in this video, one bass note is off-key...

Yeah that was a mistake that I got too lazy to fix lol since it didn't sound that awful. Technically the bass note does fit into a (diminished) chord, although that's not what I intended :P.

I did make a slight edit of that song actually though for other stuff, you can find it on my soundcloud (see sig)

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: boot2490 on July 31, 2012, 04:32:25 am

Technically speaking, as in method and execution and not the actual theory of composition, here's what I do:
I compose in Anvil Studio, then re-render the midi with high quality sounds using Synthfont, and then master the audio with Audacity, spreading the stereo and bass boosting and all. Note - all free programs. Maybe I will make a post regarding some hints and tips later or something... but oh my gosh it is four in the morning here I really need some sleep

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Yeong on July 31, 2012, 09:41:08 am

Well what I use to make music is MuseScore because I'm more familiar with notations and whatnot. After MuseScore, I save it as midi and convert to mp3 with Direct MP3 Converter since it has awesome soundfont. :D

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on July 31, 2012, 10:35:05 pm

Quote from: yeongJIN_COOL on July 31, 2012, 09:41:08 am

Well what I use to make music is MuseScore because I'm more familiar with notations and whatnot. After MuseScore, I save it as midi and convert to mp3 with Direct MP3 Converter since it has awesome soundfont. :D

While I've been playing around with musescore I found this soundfont http://www.musescore.org/download/fluid-soundfont.tar.gz
With it and .ogg exporting i never have to export it out of musescore for rendering.

Also I still dont get how chord progression works with solo parts. I see how it works with parts that can play multiple notes at once(I think) but how does it work when the instrument can only play one note at a time?

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: squidgetx on August 01, 2012, 12:04:20 am

All you really need to do is match the chord to the solo part- remember, the rule of thumb is first and last note ending on a note in that chord.

So if you said, I'll have the first chord be D major for 1 measure, you could write a melody that goes D E G A (quarter notes) and that fits.

For example, in Bach's famous cello suites (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yuR8efotI), you can visibly see and easily hear that a lot of the notes fall into very obvious chord patterns.

However, chords and chord progressions aren't as visibly important in solo writing compared to writing for multiple parts, so it can seem relatively arbitrary at first. Try just experimenting on your own and see what can come up.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on August 01, 2012, 12:18:29 am

Quote from: squidgetx on July 30, 2012, 08:49:18 pm

Quote from: DJ_O on July 30, 2012, 11:27:14 am
Unfortunately, I do not know much about the musical notation, because I use DAW's that are grid-based and am more visual, but one thing I notice is that for more complex music, where there is more than one track, a lot of people have troubles getting the bassline key right. I'll use one of your song Squidgetx, as example:

What I am talking about is, for example, at the 0:06 mark in this video, one bass note is off-key...

Yeah that was a mistake that I got too lazy to fix lol since it didn't sound that awful. Technically the bass note does fit into a (diminished) chord, although that's not what I intended :P.

I did make a slight edit of that song actually though for other stuff, you can find it on my soundcloud (see sig)

You should actually put them in the downloads section or update the existing files too, so that Juju can accept them in the radio and Omniplayer :D

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: nitacku on August 01, 2012, 12:58:10 am

When I create music, I don't worry about music theory. I only focus on how it sounds. (I do happen to know music theory though :P)

I can offer some tips for creating music with software:

1: Create a 16 measure loop (Assuming you're using 4x4 time, 16 measures will create a complete phrase)
2: Create your bass chord progression with single notes. Think Pachelbel's Canon. The opening does exactly this.
3: Insert a new instrument. Add notes to chord progression. This would be the harp & violin you hear in the beginning of Pachelbel's Canon.
4: Flush out the chords if you want.
5: Be creative! Copy that 16 loop and tweak with the note lengths.

Eventually you will have 16 measures that you're satisfied with. This should be your chorus. The entire song focuses around this 16 measure loop. You also know what instruments you're going to use now. You can create an intro and ending by layering instruments for example: A-> A&B -> A&B&C -> A&C -> C

I hope this helps. This is roughly the process I use when creating music.
Also, if you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong :P

EDIT: Pachelbel's Canon for reference

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on August 01, 2012, 01:56:26 am

Nice tutorial Nitacku. That can be another way. I personally prefer to have the bass chord progression first, since it acts as a guide, sort of.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Adriweb on August 01, 2012, 02:55:41 am

This reminds me of my 2-year music theory courses I took (I had to stop doing so because of school, though :/) for my Computer Music degree a few years ago (compositing more than computer, though, for the 3rd year) (btw, first year was focused on using VST instruments and Finale to create pieces, - I was using Plogue Bidule vst host and Crystal vst, mostly, and some Cubase and Kontakt sometimes. Second year was more oriented on Midi controllers, especially from Finale and Kontakt, and the goal of the year being the ability to create as well as possibel a classical piece (the most real-orchestra-alike sounding))

I did learn Bach's [complex] theory and techniques on how to start pieces, from basic ones to much more complex (4-5 instruments, quartet/quintet, with Counterpoint and Fugue theory).

I will see if I have any files/stuff left :P

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Yeong on August 01, 2012, 09:26:02 am

Quote from: ruler501 on July 31, 2012, 10:35:05 pm

Quote from: yeongJIN_COOL on July 31, 2012, 09:41:08 am
Well what I use to make music is MuseScore because I'm more familiar with notations and whatnot. After MuseScore, I save it as midi and convert to mp3 with Direct MP3 Converter since it has awesome soundfont. :D
While I've been playing around with musescore I found this soundfont http://www.musescore.org/download/fluid-soundfont.tar.gz
With it and .ogg exporting i never have to export it out of musescore for rendering.

Also I still dont get how chord progression works with solo parts. I see how it works with parts that can play multiple notes at once(I think) but how does it work when the instrument can only play one note at a time?

There's a 4 squares with different colors in the top menu somewhere. That's the one you're looking for. You'll realize that when you first edit stuff, your line is blue. If you click the squares, it changes color, which means different chords. :)

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on August 01, 2012, 01:49:28 pm

Quote from: yeongJIN_COOL on August 01, 2012, 09:26:02 am

Quote from: ruler501 on July 31, 2012, 10:35:05 pm
Quote from: yeongJIN_COOL on July 31, 2012, 09:41:08 am
Well what I use to make music is MuseScore because I'm more familiar with notations and whatnot. After MuseScore, I save it as midi and convert to mp3 with Direct MP3 Converter since it has awesome soundfont. :D
While I've been playing around with musescore I found this soundfont http://www.musescore.org/download/fluid-soundfont.tar.gz
With it and .ogg exporting i never have to export it out of musescore for rendering.

Also I still dont get how chord progression works with solo parts. I see how it works with parts that can play multiple notes at once(I think) but how does it work when the instrument can only play one note at a time?
There's a 4 squares with different colors in the top menu somewhere. That's the one you're looking for. You'll realize that when you first edit stuff, your line is blue. If you click the squares, it changes color, which means different chords. :)

Actually I believe they call them voices and the guide says that they are used to write multiple notes of different length on the same line. On the saxophone/clarinet though you cant play both so i was wondering how chord progression works with that

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Keoni29 on November 18, 2012, 09:03:08 am

Go mainstream: build your way up from a simple kickdrum to a quite decent repeating tune that will get stuck in your head. Then, when you expect it to happen, make it drop and start all over!

Let's just forget about that :P I never really think about chord progressions, keys and all those good things while making music. Just play around with a tune you just thought up and the rest will follow soon! It's only a matter of hours before you have a solid tune. Sometimes you just have to step away from it for a few days and inspiration will come!

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on November 18, 2012, 10:03:27 am

holy necropost batman

I had forgotten about this topic. I've worked a lot with music since then and I know a little more then I did, but I still have some questions though these I think are more dependent on how you write music. What are good ways to create specific feelings in the music you write? How do you release tension you build up in a piece without it sounding weird? How do you know when/where to release tension.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Keoni29 on November 18, 2012, 10:05:03 am

You can feel when to do so. There are rules for that, but who likes that?

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: ruler501 on November 18, 2012, 10:07:04 am

I'm one of the people who likes some rules. The outline of what to do that you can change is nice imo.

I see rules as something that can guide you, but you can always go a different way if you want to whatever is best.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Jonius7 on November 18, 2012, 05:41:31 pm

Quote from: ruler501 on November 18, 2012, 10:03:27 am

holy necropost batman

I had forgotten about this topic. I've worked a lot with music since then and I know a little more then I did, but I still have some questions though these I think are more dependent on how you write music. What are good ways to create specific feelings in the music you write? How do you release tension you build up in a piece without it sounding weird? How do you know when/where to release tension.

There are quite a lot of ways to create specific feelings.

Major or minor tonalities to a particular phrase can change the feeling you get from a piece. Especially if you mix tonalities together a bit eg: Major chord one bar, minor chord next bar. In this way creating a chord progression can help. You can release/create tension by changing the rhythm, melody, articulation, instrument.

This is very vague, but you can use rules/structure, or just go with how you feel, or somewhere in between.

EDIT: May expand later.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: SpiroH on November 19, 2012, 09:26:21 am

Music, poetry, feelings, touch and women/man do have a lot in common, really. The hard part is always the explanation, because there's no such thing. You just feel it, period.

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Yeong on November 19, 2012, 09:35:58 am

For basic, one could go I, V, IV, V. It's really simple chords to use. :D

Title: Re: Learning to write music
Post by: Adriweb on November 19, 2012, 10:37:48 am

III, VI, II, V, I :D

Also... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_progression