Omnimaga
General Discussion => Technology and Development => Other => Topic started by: Sorunome on November 19, 2013, 08:44:53 am
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So yeah, I want to get a desktop.
But the thing is: i have like no idea what to look for. What I want to do with it is here:
- Linux
- at least two monitors
- programming
- finally be able to watch full hd videos without the acting up like i have atm on my lappy
- I guess USB 3.0 would be cool
- Run emulations without a problem or much lag (like virtualbox or a virtual androis device or something from that area (I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:))
- A second monitor (already have one)
- Keyboard
- I guess a blu-ray drive would be cool but dvd is just fine (as long as i can burn dvds)
- SSD to boot quicker + start applications quicker
- At least 1TB hdd (or are SSDs so big and long-living by now that i could go full on ssd?)
Yep, no windows needed ;)
So, I wouldn't get anything before christmas now as i'm putting some money for this on my wishlist.
Any ideas/what I whould look for/should i buil on my own?
Thanks for any help :)
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You can find a great Linux based OS at http://www.debian.org/. :D
I would recommend AMD as they are typically cheaper but I find Intel to be more dependent. Well, that I know of.
Also get an okay GPU so you dont regret it later.
Finally, make sure everything is compatible with the motherboard of your choice. I cannot stress this enough.
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AMD processors these days are cheap because they're not very good. They might be good in terms of perf/cost, but that only matters if you're going to buy a whole server farm full of them. You're only going to have 1 CPU, so you can't compensate for it being shit by just adding more CPUs.
If you buy a top of the line AMD CPU, it'll be about as good as an i5. Meanwhile, it will use about twice as much power (so your cooling system had better be prepared for that). You can OC it easily to match an i7, and then it will of course use even more power.
Get an i5, or if you need more speed, an i7.
Ok, on to other stuff.
USB 3: just about every mobo supports it now.
More monitors: get a good enough GPU, and look at the specs specific to that exact supplier(!!) and model. That is, a model from Sapphire doesn't necessarily have the same number of connectors as one from Club3D, ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte, you name it. That's one of the things they differentiate their prices on (other things being RAM and cooling and free games, etc)
Storage: 1TB worth of SSDs (or a single one that big) is possible, but expensive. I'd get a nice but not very big one and put the OS and programs on it, dump big data on a slow hdd. Personally I only have a 256GB SSD and no conventional HDD, I don't store that much crap anyway.
Other: don't forget to get a powerful enough PSU (modular, to avoid a mess of wires), look at cooling a bit (stock coolers are kind of meh, fans that come with cases are usually meh), when selecting a case, make sure it's deep enough for your GPU (high end GPUs are bloody long).
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Linux distro of choice: Either Debian or Arch. That way when your friends come over, you can talk to them all about arch and debian even though they don't really care.
Two monitors: reddit.com/r/buildapcsales. Things are pretty low right now, although you may want to hold out until Black Friday.
Video, processor, etc.: Intel Core i5 4670 (or, if you want to overclock, i5 4670k). You don't really need an i7 unless you're doing heavy-duty virtualization crap, which I highly doubt you will be. If all you need is HD video as well, the integrated graphics on the i5 are far more than you need. There's no point in shelling out a truckload of money for a graphics card you don't really need. Most motherboards also have two video outs, so don't buy a gfx card just for that.
USB 3.0: Most modern motherboards support this now; I'm using a z87 Pro, which has usb3 for all its slots.
Disk drive: If you really need to burn DVDs, get a DVD drive. Blu-ray drives are impractical, expensive, and useless for the most part.
SSD: Samsung EVO is pretty nice, although their earlier models may be cheaper and not that far off.
If you're smart about how you spend your money, you can probably do this build in about 400 to 600 dollars. Use PCPartPicker to find similar builds, and browse r/buildapcdeals and slickdeals religiously :)
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Soru's an Arch user, already, iirc.
I think you should build your own. That said, get Window$ 7 and dual boot in addition to running Arch (not 8, b/c dual booting's a pain with Window$ 8). I say this because you will need some non-wineable programs for school, most likely. Also: if you take a CS class, and it's not Java or Python, you probably don't want to have to build a cross compiler just for a class. It's still your decision, but I personally wouldn't go full-linux until you're at least out of HS.
As for hardware:
Linux: Use Mint, Arch, Debian, or Ubuntu. I like mint best, personally.
Two monitors: I dunno. Make sure they work, and take the input type you want. Also make sure that you can daisy-chain the monitors (that is, plug one monitor into the other's output (output on one monitor is necessary for two monitors on one graphics card)).
Video: Depends on what you plan on doing.
If your heaviest usage will be video games @ medium graphics: Integrated graphics is fine.
If you plan on gaming constantly with high graphics settings (or do other GPU-intensive stuff): get a card for a gaming rig.
CPU: Depends on what you plan on doing. Just make sure it's 64 bit.
If your heaviest usage will be video games @ medium graphics: i5, Pentium Dual (which I have, and it's actually a really good deal), or AMD equivalents.
If you plan on gaming constantly with high graphics settings (or do other CPU-intensive stuff): i7 or AMD equivalent
DVD/CD Drive - any, so long as it reads and writes CDs and DVDs. leafy's right about the blu-ray drives.
USB 3: see leafy's post
SSD: no, No, and NO. Here's why: SSDs are flash memory, which has a limited number of Read/Writes. After a few years (depends on usage), the drive will either a: slow down immensely or b: stop working. This can happen to anything with flash memory eventually, such as flash drives and calculators.
Instead of SSD:
If you are willing to spend the money on multiple drives, all the same model: Get a bunch of drives and RAID them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID)). This makes Read/Writes super fast, depending on which level of RAID you do and how many drives you have (each level has different speeds and different levels of stability).
If you don't want to do that: Just get a typical Hard drive :P
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Maybe I should have mentioned that i wanted to stick to arch so that you guys don't have to tell studd about the linux distro, lol
Anywaysm, thank you for all the suggestions etc, but unfortunatley I can't really tell a lot apart from this now:
prozessor: i5
usb3.0
dvd rw drive
ssd and hdd (how much on ssd, how much on hdd, what do i need to pay attention to so that it is good/enough speed?)
Well, I am pretty much a hardware noob, and This still leaves tons of questions to me open:
'a good enough GPU' - what is good?
'a good cooling system' - same
how much ram? (my lappy currently has 6gb :3 )
what hdd/ssds are good?
What do i need to pay attention for on all the other stuff?
And probably some other stuff I can't think of right now, sorry for being such a noob on hardware :/
EDIT: this raid thing sounds interesting....
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels).
To browse the internet, watch movies, and get rick rolled .. well that crap GPU in an i5 is plenty for that. Just make sure you can actually connect two monitors to the mobo then.
How much RAM: well at least 4GB, but again it depends on what you're doing with it. VMs take a lot of RAM, and RAM doesn't cost anything really, so you might as well go for 8 to 16GB (more would be slightly silly, but most mobo's can take up to 32GB, if you're feeling silly)
Good cooling system.. well for an i5 that you don't OC, you don't need much. Stock cooler will work of course, but you can go for something quieter if you want.
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
That's why i said in the first post what i'd manly be doing with it ;)
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels).
Probably won't play games too much, and seing my fav games are the ones that don't really need anything (first anno game, majoras mask, stuff like that) I don't think it'll bee to much an issue
To browse the internet, watch movies, and get rick rolled .. well that crap GPU in an i5 is plenty for that. Just make sure you can actually connect two monitors to the mobo then.
Well, I am having with my lappy issues watching full hd vids and that bugs me :(
How much RAM: well at least 4GB, but again it depends on what you're doing with it. VMs take a lot of RAM, and RAM doesn't cost anything really, so you might as well go for 8 to 16GB (more would be slightly silly, but most mobo's can take up to 32GB, if you're feeling silly)
Oh, ok
Good cooling system.. well for an i5 that you don't OC, you don't need much. Stock cooler will work of course, but you can go for something quieter if you want.
what is a stock cooler? D:
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what is a stock cooler? D:
The cooler that comes with the CPU if you buy the boxed version (which you would buy).
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Seeing all the things you want to do, I recommend you build a computer the following way:
Note: Do not take all of this before someone correct me on any things that wont be good.
-Motherboard: I am not sure which one you would need to get, I would recommend a ASUS, as those
always worked fine, but you dont want a to new one, as the stuff you are going to put in your machine
is secondhanded, thus old, and wont fit in newer motherboards.
-AMD Athlon 4800: that one is pretty epic, I have it myself, and it was about 60 euros secondhanded a few years ago.
-Atleast 2 gigs ddr ram, however, the more, the better.
-GeForce video card, however, because you want 2 screens you need a fancy one, meaning that this part will most likely be the expensive thing.
As far as storage goes, you should head over to the nearest computer shop, and ask what they have to offer.
I almost dont know anything about these kinds of things, but I think you want around a 40 gig SSD to boot from, and 1 terrabyte HDD.
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Nice to see so many gracious contributions. Omnimaga is definitely a nice place.
Shall i add something too? Here it goes. Before making any more suggestions, it would be nice if you could tell us:
1. How much cash (€€) are you willing to pay for it?
2. What's exactly the main purpose of the desktop? Gaming, programming(?), server, internet browsing, etc ?
I guess (yeah, i like guessing :P) you should bet on a gaming engine. Sooner rather than later you'll regret it having decided otherwise, imho. I'd say that around 800€ you already can find a top notch gaming machine (no monitors included), if you are able to assemble the various parts (not a big deal for a smart guy like you). Then, do not be lazy and do surf a bit, eg: http://bucsaemanuel.hubpages.com/hub/Best-Gaming-PC-Computers
Happy Christmas,
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depends on how much money i can get togeather, but currently i'm thinking about like 550+
And i don't really play video games like at all, but i do tons of youtube (i know, that is a inet connection problem) but i sometimes also watch movies and my lappy currently fails at 1080p which sucks :(
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SSD: no, No, and NO. Here's why: SSDs are flash memory, which has a limited number of Read/Writes. After a few years (depends on usage), the drive will either a: slow down immensely or b: stop working. This can happen to anything with flash memory eventually, such as flash drives and calculators.
Just a quick note, this is not actually true any more. Early SSDs were prone to failure, but the tech has improved vastly since then. The average hard drive has a life of around 10-15 years; SSDs can now survive over 100 yrs. In addition, hard drives are prone to mechanical failure if you bump your case around a lot; my SSD's been dangling in my case (haha cable management) and has absolutely no problems. Since most OSes have support for TRIM nowadays, there's really no reason for write/read speeds to deteriorate over time as well.
Another note about RAID: I'd highly suggest not doing it, especially if it's your first time; for RAID0 (which pimathbraniac talks about), if any of the drives fail all your data is lost. Other RAID arrays provide redundancy, but decrease performance.
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels)
Skyrim also was not written to support multi-monitor and I've found multi-monitor hacks very unstable(especially when using mods)
Another note about RAID: I'd highly suggest not doing it, especially if it's your first time; for RAID0 (which pimathbraniac talks about), if any of the drives fail all your data is lost. Other RAID arrays provide redundancy, but decrease performance.
RAID 5 supports drive loss and increases speed, but it requires three drives and you cannot use one of them for storage
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels)
Skyrim also was not written to support multi-monitor and I've found multi-monitor hacks very unstable(especially when using mods)
How the heck can a game (other than online multiplayer games where more monitors gives an unfair advantage to the player, such as in Starcraft II) lack multiple screen support in 2013? Did the programmers take an arrow in the knee while implementing it?
SSD: no, No, and NO. Here's why: SSDs are flash memory, which has a limited number of Read/Writes. After a few years (depends on usage), the drive will either a: slow down immensely or b: stop working. This can happen to anything with flash memory eventually, such as flash drives and calculators.
Just a quick note, this is not actually true any more. Early SSDs were prone to failure, but the tech has improved vastly since then. The average hard drive has a life of around 10-15 years; SSDs can now survive over 100 yrs. In addition, hard drives are prone to mechanical failure if you bump your case around a lot; my SSD's been dangling in my case (haha cable management) and has absolutely no problems. Since most OSes have support for TRIM nowadays, there's really no reason for write/read speeds to deteriorate over time as well.
Another note about RAID: I'd highly suggest not doing it, especially if it's your first time; for RAID0 (which pimathbraniac talks about), if any of the drives fail all your data is lost. Other RAID arrays provide redundancy, but decrease performance.
Isn't SSD lifetime reduced only during defragmenting anyway? For TI calculators, the Flash chip was apparently weared out only by garbage collecting and defragmenting, not by archiving/unarchiving/flash unlock, from what I remember.
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels)
Skyrim also was not written to support multi-monitor and I've found multi-monitor hacks very unstable(especially when using mods)
How the heck can a game (other than online multiplayer games where more monitors gives an unfair advantage to the player, such as in Starcraft II) lack multiple screen support in 2013? Did the programmers take an arrow in the knee while implementing it?
SSD: no, No, and NO. Here's why: SSDs are flash memory, which has a limited number of Read/Writes. After a few years (depends on usage), the drive will either a: slow down immensely or b: stop working. This can happen to anything with flash memory eventually, such as flash drives and calculators.
Just a quick note, this is not actually true any more. Early SSDs were prone to failure, but the tech has improved vastly since then. The average hard drive has a life of around 10-15 years; SSDs can now survive over 100 yrs. In addition, hard drives are prone to mechanical failure if you bump your case around a lot; my SSD's been dangling in my case (haha cable management) and has absolutely no problems. Since most OSes have support for TRIM nowadays, there's really no reason for write/read speeds to deteriorate over time as well.
Another note about RAID: I'd highly suggest not doing it, especially if it's your first time; for RAID0 (which pimathbraniac talks about), if any of the drives fail all your data is lost. Other RAID arrays provide redundancy, but decrease performance.
Isn't SSD lifetime reduced only during defragmenting anyway? For TI calculators, the Flash chip was apparently weared out only by garbage collecting and defragmenting, not by archiving/unarchiving/flash unlock, from what I remember.
Skyrim does actually support double monitors, it only does this really badly, and you need to do some
video setting tingeling to make it work properly.
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Don't defragment an SSD. There's no reason to do it (there is no seek latency so making files contiguous doesn't help), it's just pointless wear.
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How good "good enough" is depends on what you're doing with it, of course.
To play Skyrim dual-monitor, you're going to need a pretty nice GPU (or enjoy looking at pixels)
Skyrim also was not written to support multi-monitor and I've found multi-monitor hacks very unstable(especially when using mods)
Another note about RAID: I'd highly suggest not doing it, especially if it's your first time; for RAID0 (which pimathbraniac talks about), if any of the drives fail all your data is lost. Other RAID arrays provide redundancy, but decrease performance.
RAID 5 supports drive loss and increases speed, but it requires three drives and you cannot use one of them for storage
I was talking about RAID 5, in fact. RAID 0 is stupid if you don't know what you're doing. That said, I was stupid about the triple no on SSDs. My dad has been spitting out garbage about them, and so I did the same. Then I read about how they only get bad when defragmenting, and I feel stupid about it.
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There still is addressing latency: sequential addressing is faster.
However this is vastly negligible since fragmentation doesn't usually get so bad that sequential data isn't the norm while defragmenting does introduce wear. It's still something to be aware of when working on a low level.
Since the topic is on desktop systems - ignore I even said something.
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^truth. since he's not going to be using NTFS, though, it's not a big issue either way.
as for advice. get a haswell processor and an amd graphics card. when looking for haswell, don't discount xeon in favour of i5s either. the biggest differences between the latter and the former are going to be a lack of new integrated graphics, which you won't need because of your discreet card, overclocking, which you won't need for your purposes either and will be better without because power consumption and lifespan, and 25% more L3 cache. as for the graphics card, you don't need screaming performance there either, so AMD will suit your needs much better because you can stick with the open-source drivers and not have to worry about nvidia removing support for things from their linux drivers to appease windows like they have been.
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So yeah, I want to get a desktop.
But the thing is: i have like no idea what to look for. What I want to do with it is here:
- Linux
- at least two monitors
- programming
- finally be able to watch full hd videos without the acting up like i have atm on my lappy
- I guess USB 3.0 would be cool
- Run emulations without a problem or much lag (like virtualbox or a virtual androis device or something from that area (I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:))
- A second monitor (already have one)
- Keyboard
- I guess a blu-ray drive would be cool but dvd is just fine (as long as i can burn dvds)
- SSD to boot quicker + start applications quicker
- At least 1TB hdd (or are SSDs so big and long-living by now that i could go full on ssd?)
Yep, no windows needed ;)
So, I wouldn't get anything before christmas now as i'm putting some money for this on my wishlist.
Any ideas/what I whould look for/should i buil on my own?
Thanks for any help :)
Definitely build your own. MUCH cheaper.
depending on how much money you have you can get certain parts for certain things.
You will need/want/what I suggest for the core components.
PSU - atleast 600w. but 700w+ is pretty good to have too.
Graphics Card (you want a good one) - GeForce GTX Series's I prefer the GTX 760 (getting that soon, brother has it)
Processor - INTEL (NOT AMD, because AMD is good for cheap processors and if you are going cheap they are fine, but intel is sturdy it will last and there is a slight difference between them that make me like intel better, cant remember what though) Quad-Core processor of atleast 3.00 GHz
Motherboard - anything that is compatible with all your parts, doesn't need to be too great.
RAM - If you don't really care or it doesn't matter than do 4 gb if you need a little extra then 6 is good. you probably wont need 8 or 16 for a couple years so don't bother.
I'm not a hardware or even software for that matter genius so don't credit me for my likes and dislikes. I'm just trying to help out :P.
If your price range is smaller than this that's fine. You can always get lesser parts but remember your GPU and CPU REALLY matter on the computers performance.
And don't forget you can always download more RAM. :P
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So yeah, I want to get a desktop.
But the thing is: i have like no idea what to look for. What I want to do with it is here:
- Linux
- at least two monitors
- programming
- finally be able to watch full hd videos without the acting up like i have atm on my lappy
- I guess USB 3.0 would be cool
- Run emulations without a problem or much lag (like virtualbox or a virtual androis device or something from that area (I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:))
- A second monitor (already have one)
- Keyboard
- I guess a blu-ray drive would be cool but dvd is just fine (as long as i can burn dvds)
- SSD to boot quicker + start applications quicker
- At least 1TB hdd (or are SSDs so big and long-living by now that i could go full on ssd?)
Yep, no windows needed ;)
So, I wouldn't get anything before christmas now as i'm putting some money for this on my wishlist.
Any ideas/what I whould look for/should i buil on my own?
Thanks for any help :)
thats a lot
if you have a heavy wallet then go for a mac
it is similar in context with linux---------------> both are based on unix
multi display and everything is there
except for dvd drive you have a separate one for that
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So yeah, I want to get a desktop.
But the thing is: i have like no idea what to look for. What I want to do with it is here:
- Linux
- at least two monitors
- programming
- finally be able to watch full hd videos without the acting up like i have atm on my lappy
- I guess USB 3.0 would be cool
- Run emulations without a problem or much lag (like virtualbox or a virtual androis device or something from that area (I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:))
- A second monitor (already have one)
- Keyboard
- I guess a blu-ray drive would be cool but dvd is just fine (as long as i can burn dvds)
- SSD to boot quicker + start applications quicker
- At least 1TB hdd (or are SSDs so big and long-living by now that i could go full on ssd?)
Yep, no windows needed ;)
So, I wouldn't get anything before christmas now as i'm putting some money for this on my wishlist.
Any ideas/what I whould look for/should i buil on my own?
Thanks for any help :)
thats a lot
if you have a heavy wallet then go for a mac
it is similar in context with linux---------------> both are based on unix
multi display and everything is there
except for dvd drive you have a separate one for that
Even If he has a heavy wallet right now, I would never go for Mac because they are very unreasonably priced for their hardware. Not only that but custom build is cheaper than any pre-built computer. Putting my hatred for Macs aside, I respectfully disagree with you entirely.
Later in life If I have a ton of money that I have nothing to do with I might get a mac just to experiment with its OS because I have never used one. XD
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So yeah, I want to get a desktop.
But the thing is: i have like no idea what to look for. What I want to do with it is here:
- Linux
- at least two monitors
- programming
- finally be able to watch full hd videos without the acting up like i have atm on my lappy
- I guess USB 3.0 would be cool
- Run emulations without a problem or much lag (like virtualbox or a virtual androis device or something from that area (I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:))
- A second monitor (already have one)
- Keyboard
- I guess a blu-ray drive would be cool but dvd is just fine (as long as i can burn dvds)
- SSD to boot quicker + start applications quicker
- At least 1TB hdd (or are SSDs so big and long-living by now that i could go full on ssd?)
Yep, no windows needed ;)
So, I wouldn't get anything before christmas now as i'm putting some money for this on my wishlist.
Any ideas/what I whould look for/should i buil on my own?
Thanks for any help :)
Definitely build your own. MUCH cheaper.
depending on how much money you have you can get certain parts for certain things.
You will need/want/what I suggest for the core components.
PSU - atleast 600w. but 700w+ is pretty good to have too.
Graphics Card (you want a good one) - GeForce GTX Series's I prefer the GTX 760 (getting that soon, brother has it)
Processor - INTEL (NOT AMD, because AMD is good for cheap processors and if you are going cheap they are fine, but intel is sturdy it will last and there is a slight difference between them that make me like intel better, cant remember what though) Quad-Core processor of atleast 3.00 GHz
Motherboard - anything that is compatible with all your parts, doesn't need to be too great.
RAM - If you don't really care or it doesn't matter than do 4 gb if you need a little extra then 6 is good. you probably wont need 8 or 16 for a couple years so don't bother.
I'm not a hardware or even software for that matter genius so don't credit me for my likes and dislikes. I'm just trying to help out :P.
If your price range is smaller than this that's fine. You can always get lesser parts but remember your GPU and CPU REALLY matter on the computers performance.
And don't forget you can always download more RAM. :P
AMD has just been cranking up their clock speeds and stacking on more cores to increase their speeds. Intel, on the other hand, has been optimising the crap out of everything, meaning that they are *much* better in terms of power consumption, lifespan, and overall performance (from 8 to 16 flops per cycle with the move to haswell =D). also, like i said above, one should stay away from nvidia when using linux. they're under the sway of wondows to a much greater degree, and nouveau is not very usable.
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Definitely build your own. MUCH cheaper.
I'm not sure if that's really the case outside United States, especially in Europe, where shipping is expensive. If he builds his own, he better buy all parts online from one single place and combine shipping, else, like in Canada a few years ago (back when the exchange rate was $0.80 USD) he might end up paying much more than a pre-built computer.
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(http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg)
Facepalm.
I always forget to consider shipping. >_<
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[...]
if you have a heavy wallet then go for a mac
it is similar in context with linux---------------> both are based on unix
multi display and everything is there
except for dvd drive you have a separate one for that
ew, you'd have to brainwash me for me even thinking about that, sorry :P
Anyways, out of your posts it seems as if AMD is not that good at all.....(lol, i have an AMD cpu in my lappy)
Also, graphic card, yeah, i heard about nvidia and linux......so i guess no GeForce card. Any suggestions? (other than saying, hm, decent because i don't know what the hay to pay attention for to get 'decent' GPUs)
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While you can't do much when problems arise since nvidia drivers are binary blobs they still work pretty good. If you are planning to run any 3d games at all go with nvidia.
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[...]
if you have a heavy wallet then go for a mac
it is similar in context with linux---------------> both are based on unix
multi display and everything is there
except for dvd drive you have a separate one for that
ew, you'd have to brainwash me for me even thinking about that, sorry :P
Anyways, out of your posts it seems as if AMD is not that good at all.....(lol, i have an AMD cpu in my lappy)
Also, graphic card, yeah, i heard about nvidia and linux......so i guess no GeForce card. Any suggestions? (other than saying, hm, decent because i don't know what the hay to pay attention for to get 'decent' GPUs)
with what you're saying, i honestly think and ATI card will be fine. if you were going with just one screen, i'd even say to leave out the card entirely and just use high-end intel graphics.
EDIT: for specific ATI cards, i don't know much; maybe you could ask Eeems?
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That's the problem though. ATIs performance last I checked was horrible. And since AMD opened up their GPU documentation their non-free driver got to the point were it's not worth trying.
ATI/AMD performance compared to intel graphics better than to nvidia graphics.
I'm a Linux user since more than 15 years and have been using nvidia most of the time but went through matrox, s3, intel, via, and ati, too. I really wanted to switch to a more free option several times and I did try. It just was never worth the performance loss.
So what from a user perspective are the problems with nvidia graphics day to day? Of course the drivers are non-free, unless you use nouveau but then you are better off with AMD. So let's say you are fine with running nvidias non-free drivers - what problems will arise?
There is no kms and it doesn't work to use framebuffer drivers together with the nvidia driver. So no high resolution text mode.
Switching between X and Text virtual consoles is flakey. Sometimes you loose text virtual console visibility. On a Desktop however 99.9% of the time you stay in X. On very rare occasions This switching left me with no graphics whatsoever and only a reboot helped.
RANDR support is there. Since this happened multi-monitor support is decent using the distributions own configuration tools. no need to change your Xorg.conf file.
Sometimes after a kernel update or a graphics driver update there is a mismatch of driver versions and X won't start. DKMS and other infrastructure by the distributions mostly takes care of that.
On the other hand when it works, and it usually does, the experience is unmatched. You get reliable and fast graphics with opengl just working. There are apis and api support for video playback acceleration and cuda. And there is infrastructure to actually use it.
In my opinion not using nvidia graphics for a Linux desktop is a very bad idea. Unless you value the freedom of your systems software over it working.
Edit: I did some more reading about the non-free amd/ati drivers. Apparantly the situation improved a lot. So non-free AMD/ATI can now actually be compared to non-free NVIDIA. That being said I'd have to try myself to actually see wether installing the ATI drivers has become something that can be done without hours of cursing nowadays. The ratio of nvidia/fglrx problems I've seen strongly suggests prefering nvidia.
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People always say you can't get high-res consoles because of the lack of KMS, but in my case at least, the default resolution is native. I think nvidia provided its own method for text-mode resizing, since AFAIK the KMS issue has not yet been addressed.
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With the newer 3.12 kernel the open source radeon driver is almost (90%) as fast as the proprietrary fglrx.
With fglrx the console is at the native resolution sometimes, sometimes it isn't. But with the open source driver you won't get annoying flickering if you switch the tty.
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Isn't SSD lifetime reduced only during defragmenting anyway? For TI calculators, the Flash chip was apparently weared out only by garbage collecting and defragmenting, not by archiving/unarchiving/flash unlock, from what I remember.
SSD lifetime is reduced when you delete something from it. On TI calculators, deletion only happens when you defrag/GC (since variables only are marked as deleted otherwise). On PCs, things are a bit different. Instead of copying everything, deleting the original and then writing everything back, PCs can delete individual files pretty much whenever. This is much more efficient since you're just erasing a small part of flash. Also, since PC file systems are more advanced than VAT, files can be split up into multiple segments and still work just fine (though this is pretty slow on regular hard drives because of seek times, and that's why those need defragging).
I hope it'll be able to run Wabbitemu D:
Maybe it'll even be able to beat my Pentium 4 that manages to run Wabbitemu at full speed :P
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That's the problem though. ATIs performance last I checked was horrible. And since AMD opened up their GPU documentation their non-free driver got to the point were it's not worth trying.
ATI/AMD performance compared to intel graphics better than to nvidia graphics.
I'm a Linux user since more than 15 years and have been using nvidia most of the time but went through matrox, s3, intel, via, and ati, too. I really wanted to switch to a more free option several times and I did try. It just was never worth the performance loss.
So what from a user perspective are the problems with nvidia graphics day to day? Of course the drivers are non-free, unless you use nouveau but then you are better off with AMD. So let's say you are fine with running nvidias non-free drivers - what problems will arise?
There is no kms and it doesn't work to use framebuffer drivers together with the nvidia driver. So no high resolution text mode.
Switching between X and Text virtual consoles is flakey. Sometimes you loose text virtual console visibility. On a Desktop however 99.9% of the time you stay in X. On very rare occasions This switching left me with no graphics whatsoever and only a reboot helped.
RANDR support is there. Since this happened multi-monitor support is decent using the distributions own configuration tools. no need to change your Xorg.conf file.
Sometimes after a kernel update or a graphics driver update there is a mismatch of driver versions and X won't start. DKMS and other infrastructure by the distributions mostly takes care of that.
On the other hand when it works, and it usually does, the experience is unmatched. You get reliable and fast graphics with opengl just working. There are apis and api support for video playback acceleration and cuda. And there is infrastructure to actually use it.
In my opinion not using nvidia graphics for a Linux desktop is a very bad idea. Unless you value the freedom of your systems software over it working.
Edit: I did some more reading about the non-free amd/ati drivers. Apparantly the situation improved a lot. So non-free AMD/ATI can now actually be compared to non-free NVIDIA. That being said I'd have to try myself to actually see wether installing the ATI drivers has become something that can be done without hours of cursing nowadays. The ratio of nvidia/fglrx problems I've seen strongly suggests prefering nvidia.
i have a modern nvidia card and nouveau handles my set up just fine doing the sorts of things sorunome said he'd be doing. i'd much rather have an ATI card, though, because of the better performance and less ambiguity about the future. what things are you doing that *require* the proprietary drivers' speed?
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I use the AMD(not sure if free or not) drivers on my install and they work just fine(triple monitor with xrandr). I haven't done much with testing performance comparison versus windows, but it seems to work well.
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Shmibs, do you do any gaming? Nouveau's 3D support was still crap last time I checked.
Also, the benchmarks don't lie: Nouveau is crap compared to the native driver.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau_nvidia_win81&num=2
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[...]
if you have a heavy wallet then go for a mac
it is similar in context with linux---------------> both are based on unix
multi display and everything is there
except for dvd drive you have a separate one for that
ew, you'd have to brainwash me for me even thinking about that, sorry :P
Anyways, out of your posts it seems as if AMD is not that good at all.....(lol, i have an AMD cpu in my lappy)
Also, graphic card, yeah, i heard about nvidia and linux......so i guess no GeForce card. Any suggestions? (other than saying, hm, decent because i don't know what the hay to pay attention for to get 'decent' GPUs)
with what you're saying, i honestly think and ATI card will be fine. if you were going with just one screen, i'd even say to leave out the card entirely and just use high-end intel graphics.
EDIT: for specific ATI cards, i don't know much; maybe you could ask Eeems?
Ew! :P Intel GRAPHICS CARDS would never rank higher than last on my list. >_<
I love Intel but their graphics cards are not very good.
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Ew! :P Intel GRAPHICS CARDS would never rank higher than last on my list. >_<
I love Intel but their graphics cards are not very good.
yup nvidia is 10000x better
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The thing about Intel's GPUs is that, while they aren't so good, the drivers for linux support them fully. The GPUs in the newer ones aren't THAT bad, and they have great linux support with open source drivers.
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For Linux you are probably right, I wouldn't know. I tried Ubuntu, couldn't figure out anything and then switched back to windows because I'm just way to lazy and I've had 16 years of experience with windows only (My dad works for Microsoft)
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I'm popping in a bit late but here are some tips :
-CPU : Intel 4670k (~€200) or 3770k (~€300)
-Mobo : Asus Z87 pro (~€180)
-CPU cooler : Cooler Master Hyper 212 evo (~€30)
-RAM : no brand in particular, but pick some PC3-14900, CAS 9 RAM, a dual channel 16GB kit is about €120 and is well worth it (make sure not to choose "value" RAM though at this speed you prolly wont find any)
-GPU : definitely one with an AMD chip. Much better price:perf ratio than Nvidia (like, a lot cheaper). For the board any brand will do, just pick one of the latest gen within your budget.
-SSD : I'm no expert so I can't help much but 64 or 128GB should be enough to hold your system partitions. I don't have one.
-HDD : Much faster than an SSD for bulk reads (SSD is better at random access hence why people use them for their sys partition but not mass storage). I have a Seagate Barracuda and it's very fast at random access too. Pick a 7200 RPM one.
-Optical drive : Up to you. BD reader/DVD burner combos are ~€50 nowadays. Since I barely ever use optical disks I have a no-name DVD burner that I didn't even use yet.
-Case : You want one with good cooling. The more fans, the better. ~€50-60
-PSU : Don't neglect it. 750W should be plenty, modular is better and if it's 80plus certified it's even better though it's not needed (I have an Akasa Cobra 750W which is not certified but it works quite well)
For the display, IPS all the way. 1080p of course and anything between 22 and 27 inches is the most comfortable.
For Linux, I guess you're pretty much settled with Arch so stick with it. :P
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I feel like this topic is to come here and bash on each others like's on computer hardware. XD
We are probably confusing the heck out of Sorunome.
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I feel like this topic is to come here and bash on each others like's on computer hardware. XD
We are probably confusing the heck out of Sorunome.
That :P
CPU - i5?
RAM - 6GB+
SSD - 128GB
HDD - 1TB+
GPU - ?
Mobo - ?
PSU - ?
meh
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Yeah I guess you got it.
CPU : i5, or i7 if you're gonna build massive software often. In any case chose the Haswell K series (model number 4xxxK). These are the latest and K means you can OC it so you can freely upgrade. Also get a good cooler, Intel's sucks ass.
RAM : 8 or 16GB. 6 is definitely not enough and should only be used with triple channel setups anyway. PC3-14900 is the speed you should take as it's a good speed:price ratio.
SSD and HDD : You pick. A typical setup is SSD for the OS and HDD for mass data storage, so 64 or 128GB and 1 or 2TB.
GPU : If you don't plan on gaming (recent games) at all, then none. The new IGPs in Intel CPUs are very good. Else AMDs are cheaper than Nvidia so if you don't have a personnal preference go for AMD. Pick the best one that fits your budget.
Mobo : The key to chosing a good mobo is the chipset. You probably want the Intel z87 since it's the best one for custom built PCs. Then any brand will do. Your budget and the specificities each mobo has will help you picking the right one.
PSU : http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp will help you pick the right wattage. Give yourself some upgrading margin in the specs you input. Looking for 80plus certified PSUs is also a good idea but not necessary. Also please don't pick a random no-name one.
Hope it boils down what you wanted to know. I tried to be as objective as possible here.
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I don't want no GPU as i want at least two screens, probably more later on.
Also, I want to be able to watch vids on full HD without lagging what they do on my lappy >.<
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What budget would you want for this?
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like 550€, it is in the posts somewhere.... :P
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I was just looking at the last couple posts and that would probably run higher than that. Should the cost include monitors, keyboard, mouse?
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it includes one monitor (already have the second one) and a keyboard (already have a mouse)
I also already have speakers, so no need for that too.
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If you are going with two monitors the best experience would be to have them both be the same kind.
Here is an example of a build with some of the specs already mentioned http://pcpartpicker.com/p/27NPS
some of that stuff should probably be cut down to a more reasonable level for you to get anywhere near your pricepoint. What parts are most important to you?
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like 550€, it is in the posts somewhere.... :P
Arf, this is quite a tight budget. :/
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Indeed this is a very tight budget. Especially since I'm convinced that the parts you should not compromise on are the PSU and the human interface devices (display, mouse, keyboard).
So let me say that I'm very, very pleased with my golden silent fanless PSU. It doesn't get hot to the touch despite being fanless, it's 500W with a platinum power efficiency rating and allows being used as a 650W PSU, but then the platinum rating doesn't apply. It's not expensive, either.
So after a display and a PSU that leaves you with like no money. Isn't that the kind of situation where the AMD APUs make sense? Decent graphics and processor in a single package, so you don't have to live with intel GPU performance and still don't need a dedicated graphics cards. I'd look for price of the APU/mainboard combo first and invest what's left in RAM. That could still be recycled on an upgrade. HDD and especially SSD prices will probably drop so much that investing here doesn't make any sense.
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You could try getting parts from people's busted computers. After 3 years I actually have a really nice computer that actually works.
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That's quite some can of worms to open. Before you know what happened you have a garage full of electronic junk and a power bill that makes you weep.
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@Street I find it odd that you acknowledge the price/perf advantage on AMD/Nvidia, but not on AMD/Intel.
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@Street I find it odd that you acknowledge the price/perf advantage on AMD/Nvidia, but not on AMD/Intel.
Well for starters AMD GPUs are actually made by former ATI engineers, and you can consider that it's not the same branch. I have an AMD 7970 and it's quite powerful and far cheaper than the equivalent from Nvidia as far as benchmarks go. On the other hand a quad core i5 ROFLPWNs an eight core AMD FX and it's not that much more expensive here so yeah... IMO the difference in price is not what should make you choose an AMD over an Intel. Plus now the IGP is no longer an argument as the one in Haswell CPUs is pretty good from what I heard.
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On my end, an i5 with a haswell core is >$200 USD. The FX series starts at around $120.
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Here it's €200 vs 130 to 180. But the lower end ones are not even able to compete.
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Hmm! What an interesting topic! About getting a cheap computer... Ask me, for I am the master of computer cheapness. Don't ask me actually, for few of my computers work well. :)
Anyway, these low-end specs you guys post would be amazing! I've been reasonably happy with a 2 GB RAM, 140watt, 2.4 GHz AMD Athlon 64 computer, made by eMachines, with built in nVidia graphics. It ran Windows Vista, Minecraft, and Wabbitemu simultaniously without a problem. It had a 160 GB HDD that we never came close to filling, and lasted 5 years.
I did buy value RAM, I did get most of my pieces from assorted dumps... not saying its a good idea though...
Say, maybe you should try Windows! Seems pretty efficient!
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Ya I'd personal agree with you on trying windows, but Linux is open to editing. He can do whatever he wants to it. AKA programmers dream, if you can figure out how to use it well and/or compensate for the lack of game releases on it. (But hey that's what Virtual Machines are for right?)
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The only hardware difference I'd recommend for Linux vs. Windows when building a desktop is to get an Nvidia GPU. AMD's cards do not perform as well, due to really crappy drivers. Nvidia's proprietary drivers work extremely well.
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I have good experience with AMD GPU's on linux.
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I have good experience with AMD GPU's on linux.
Me too. Also AMD has been contributing to the open source driver recently.
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And you can expect to see big improvements in the Linux driver now that there are Steamboxes.
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Hm, i should really start looking for parts.
My budget is pretty much 550€....
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Current ideas:
GPU: http://www.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?adp=0&aid=72029&agid=1165&apop=3
CPU: http://www.hardwareversand.de/Socket+1150+%28XEON%29/78087/Intel+Xeon+E3-1220v3+Bx%2C+LGA1150%2C+ohne+K%C3%BChler.article
Still need to find more stuff.
And xeon because why get a CPU with a graphical unit if you have a seperate GPU?
thoughts?
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There are more benefits to the i5/i7 line than just the GPU. I'd think you could get an i5 for the same price.
The GPU looks good though.
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What other benefits are there?
Because, as far as i know, the xeon is quicker than the i5....
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Actually looking online it seems that they are pretty much the same(though you can't overclock the xeons it seems).
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Never felt the need to overclock so far.
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yeah, overclocking is basically the only difference. the newer haswell xeons don't have hyperthreading either, though, i don't think, so that might be something you'd care about.
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if it's an i5 or a xeon hyperthreading shouldn't really matter