Omnimaga
Calculator Community => HP Calculators => Topic started by: northern_snow on August 16, 2013, 02:32:13 am
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According to the HP China agency, the students of Beijing NO.15 Middle School tests the HP Prime in the last month.
http://eduhp.cn/News/Detailed/80
The article said that on June 12th, 2013, a summer camp named "Travelling Through Mathematics and Technology" supported by HP was held in Beijing NO.15 Middle School. In the summer camp, the HP Global Education Manager Tony introduced the HP Prime.
(The translation might not be accurate at some point, but I think it's better than Google translation XD)
And yesterday, two testers appeared on cnCalc.
http://www.cncalc.org/thread-9240-1-1.html
http://www.cncalc.org/thread-9239-1-1.html [Blue Screen photo inside~]
They reported that some DVTs are unstable while others are a bit better. They also mentioned the "Blue Screen", which reminds us the blue screen on NSpire Color. Mutiple-touch is still disabled.
It seems that the biggest problem of the DVTs are they will be automatically turned off. And no settings can disable the feature. :(
I think the DVT is more like a prototype with the pre-release version software. So hopping HP can do better on the production version.
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We already heard of blue screens on the HP Prime :)
HP has introduced a large amount of new code for the Prime, and it is not rock-solid yet... but they're working on it, there have been multiple important firmware upgrades since two months ago, the latest one just last week.
Some developers communicate directly with the community, and they're pretty receptive and eager to fix bugs.
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That actually is more of a marketing activity and not really a testing type activity.
Anyone complaining/worrying about stability before the final version that arrives with the calculator is just unfamiliar with the way things work. In fact, debugging in the ROM wasn't turned off until recently. Generally, when active development for the first version of a software product is happening, anything prior to the first release are development builds or marketing samples. Usually the ROM builds run through a quick automated test to ensure they don't immediately crash with basic operations, and are supposedly sent to a selected set of people who know how to update the units and are aware of the possibility of large issues in order to give feedback on specific things.
However, sometimes those units end up in the hands of people who don't receive the update information, fail to update, choose not to or really never should have received them in the first place.
After a first release of a product things are much more stable and any sort of evaluation versions that go out are much, much more thoroughly tested because there is actually a stable location on which everything else is built upon.
Rest assured, the shipping firmware is very stable. Perfect? No. That is essentially impossible. I am sure there will be bugs found as all software of any marginal complexity will have them, but it is a very good product.
We already heard of blue screens on the HP Prime Smiley
Basically, what that shows is a dump of all the ARM registers. Allows you to track down where it crashed. If I remember my computing history, blue screens were used for error/crashes long before windows, but microsoft definitely made them famous. ;D
I think the DVT is more like a prototype with the pre-release version software. So hopping HP can do better on the production version.
Datamath actually has a very relevant writeup that explains it quite well (http://www.datamath.org/Story/Phoenix.htm). EVT, DVT, and PVT are standard terms in product design. It is very common to have multiple stages of them as well. For example, an EVT unit might have the near final shape, but the plastic molds don't have texturing, there are missing components, etc. It usually is at this stage that they begin testing EMI. DVT is usually the stage where the unit basically looks final and complete. This is when the final testings/certifications are usually done. PVT is for final checks to make sure the production lines are working properly and consistently. Usually, little is done here - however sometimes issues can be discovered and need resolving.
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Thanks for the post Tim. It's very nice to have a bit of insight into the process. :)
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That actually is more of a marketing activity and not really a testing type activity.
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Yeah, it very much sounds like it!
How about offering the Omnimaga community a couple of HP Prime samples so that experts here can test it more thoroughly and provide HP with some valuable end-user feedback. Wouldn't that be also a nice marketing gesture? ;)
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Some people around the TI graphing calculators development community do already have samples, even if their handling feels different to them ;)
So far, HP has done a good job creating interest about the Prime in communities traditionally focused on TI productions, and more samples would indeed be another win-win move wrt. creating interest and garnering feedback, indeed.
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I like the idea of HP showcasing the calc to students. Hopefully this convinces some to choose that calc over others.
As for bug complaints, you are right when it comes to those students, but in the TI community we saw how unstable the HP 39gII could get, even 1 year after its release (even when not running any game. For example, deleting a program would freeze the calc 100% of the time even after a fresh OS reinstall), so people here are probably worrying that the Prime will just be as unstable. That said, that one (which the Prime is based on) had a brand new OS rather than a Saturn OS from the HP 48G era, so obviously it was gonna have more bugs to discover than a 84+CSE OS based heavily on the 84+SE. I guess in some ways the HP 39gII could almost be a beta of the Prime lol.
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That would be nice to give out to Omnimaga staff HP Prime prototypes so they can review it, that would indeed help spark interest on the Prime on Omnimaga.
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Well, the thing right now is that the calc is coming out near the end of September, so with the shipping delays and stuff, it would give very little time for testing, not to mention HP might be more willing to get the calc tested in terms of school related stuff rather than programming, since school stuff is the most important part of the calc. But of course it would definitively be nice to be able to test it so we can send suggestions or bug reports.
As for the interest, one thing I hope I keep motivation, health (and time) for is making some more games and maybe starting some bigger projects. If the calc already has a small library of games at release time this could be enough to get some students interested in buying it. Although they buy the calc for maths, they might also want to play some games on it during their spare time. Of course in United States it will be harder to sell the calc, though, because it has a CAS, so the userbase will be generally older, unless they get the calc only to code, and in general older people tend to have moved on from calc stuff long before.
As for games, though, I am not as much into the big classics like Frogger and Snake so someone else will have to do them. :P
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Well, the thing right now is that the calc is coming out near the end of September, so with the shipping delays and stuff, it would give very little time for testing, not to mention HP might be more willing to get the calc tested in terms of school related stuff rather than programming, since school stuff is the most important part of the calc. But of course it would definitively be nice to be able to test it so we can send suggestions or bug reports.
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I'm afraid i do not completely agree with your take on the 'HP Prime Gift to Omnimaga' idea. Here are some arguments that cross my mind:
1. Quite possibly the first HP Prime version to be released will include some bugs; 2. Detecting those bugs will require a lot of testing and some expertise that most of the target school students simply do not have.
3. Adding gaming features to a calc is IMO a strong selling point from HP's POV. Developping good calc games is not for noobs; 4. Publicizing HP Prime usage through free third party reviews including performance evaluation
is quite a good (cheap) deal in exchange for a couple of calc samples; 5. The Omnimaga community (with due respect to other companion sites) is already worldwide known and does attract lots of both end-user students and some more seasoned calc programmers as well; 6. Last but not least, IMO you are being too modest here. Let HP read these requests and let them decide what's best for both parties.
Maybe we get lucky. ;)
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Yeah true. My worry was more about the extremely short timeframe between when Omni staff would get a sample and the calc release, though. Assuming a canadian staff got the calc, count at least three weeks of shipping, no matter what shipping service is used, then the one who got the calc would only have like two-three weeks to test it, between school and/or work D:
Also I think the Omnimaga banner will need another update, maybe to add a second batch of calcs to the left or something, including the HP Prime. :P That and a front page navigation update, because it hasn't been updated since 2011 >.< (Yunhua's projects are still listed there, even though he retired a long while ago and the HP sections are still missing)
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Also I think the Omnimaga banner will need another update, maybe to add a second batch of calcs to the left or something, including the HP Prime. :P That and a front page navigation update, because it hasn't been updated since 2011 >.< (Yunhua's projects are still listed there, even though he retired a long while ago and the HP sections are still missing)
I like the banner update idea! :)
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They also mention that the touch screen isn't that accurate and that the key-pad can only move horizontally/vertically, no diagonal movement when moving a cursor, for example.
Btw, is there an exact release date set? Does "September" mean the 1st? If there's ASM support i'll definitely be picking one up :)
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If there's ASM support i'll definitely be picking one up :)
Well, it has been made clear that there's no ASM support, sadly.
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That actually is more of a marketing activity and not really a testing type activity.
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Yeah, it very much sounds like it!
How about offering the Omnimaga community a couple of HP Prime samples so that experts here can test it more thoroughly and provide HP with some valuable end-user feedback. Wouldn't that be also a nice marketing gesture? ;)
I agree, that would be pretty sweet. :) I'm not sure how likely that is though.
@Chickendude: There isn't any (ARM)ASM support out of the box, but it seems likely in the future...
but oh well... many employees of calculator manufacturers, especially in the management chain, see openness as a threat to the business model, instead of seeing it as the asset that it always has been...
If the platform is popular enough, arbitrary native code execution and Linux will eventually come to the platform. It's only a matter of interest and time.
Nah, he was just making a rather poor joke that really didn't come across well. He definitely doesn't think that way.
Personally, I will be surprised if someone doesn't have an embedded Linux kernel booting on it a few weeks after wide availability. (S3C2416)
TW
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They also mention that the touch screen isn't that accurate and that the key-pad can only move horizontally/vertically, no diagonal movement when moving a cursor, for example.
Btw, is there an exact release date set? Does "September" mean the 1st? If there's ASM support i'll definitely be picking one up :)
the touchscreen can't be worse than the iPod Touch, though. On the iPod you must zoom in until the link text fills the entire screen height in order to accurately click it. As for the keypad, I noticed in a Youtube video that someone made that scrolling could be diagonal. It is possible that there might be diagonal movement inside programs, just not outside, such as menus.
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They also mention that the touch screen isn't that accurate and that the key-pad can only move horizontally/vertically, no diagonal movement when moving a cursor, for example.
Hi,
No such problem with my pre-release unit. Touch screen accurate (for my fingers ;) ) , and the key-pad moves diagonal :D
There is a MOUSE command for use touch screen in program...
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They should update the firmware - of course, if they have access to it.
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I know it's been confirmed that the current models don't have asm support, but the models that have been sent out weren't packaged with the final software. I know they're still fixing things up before release into stores, i wasn't sure if that was something that would possibly change before the final release or if they'd already mentioned that they weren't going to add in support for native code.
Also, it's available for pre-order here:
http://eduhp.cn/Products/Index/49
It's listed at nearly 2000 RMB, around 250€ O.O I'm hoping that's not the suggested retail price. On another site, however, someone from HP mentioned that it'll be more reasonably priced than the 50g when it came out:
http://es.engadget.com/2013/04/22/hp-prime-calculadora-video/
We believe that it'll be more accessible than the Nspire CAS CX and that when it comes out to the market it'll be better-priced than the HP50g when it first came out.
EDIT:
They also mention that the touch screen isn't that accurate and that the key-pad can only move horizontally/vertically, no diagonal movement when moving a cursor, for example.
Hi,
No such problem with my pre-release unit. Touch screen accurate (for my fingers ;) ) , and the key-pad moves diagonal :D
There is a MOUSE command for use touch screen in program...
That's great news :)
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No such problem with my pre-release unit.
That's pretty interesting! Would you mind telling us how did you get a pre-release unit? Thanks.
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You should contact HP and introduce yourself ;)
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Given what was told by Tim a week ago, although the calcs lacks ASM support, I don't think it will be really as hard as the Nspire to add it ourselves and maintaining it might not be as hard either. However, the minute that ASM programs dedicated to mess with the teacher mode becomes too easy to access, you can be assured that HP will do the same thing as TI.
As for retail price, we have to keep in mind that many companies usually charges much higher outside United States. For example in Canada, which is just next to USA border, a TI-89 Titanium will cost $50 higher than south of the border. Also, most Casio calcs in France are about $60 higher than in United States.
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We still don't know (at least, i don't) the exact hardware architecture of the calc, except for a few details that have surfaced: a touch-screen, a 400MHz ARM cpu, 256Mb of flash and 32Mb of ram. It looks to me it shouldn't be too difficult to install on it some sort of Linux variant, namely Android. The minute this is achieved, students can install whatever cheating software they can find. So, no matter how good these 'Examination Mode's are, in the long run, they will be completely overtaken by some smart student(s). Furthermore, programming in general will be open to almost any computer language you want and there are quite a number of good open-source mathematic/scientific packages out there.
Depending on the classe's size, being myself a teacher, i find it very unrealistic to implement an effective way to prevent cheating. At first, it will scare some, i concede that. Instead, you have to train yourself during some years to detect the cheater looking into his/her facial expression and gestures. So, i see it more as yet another school directed marketing feature more than anything else.
As for the price, unfortunately, i find the minimum price of $150 rather expensive for such a device. Unless forced by the school/lecturer to buy such a device, students are much better off buying an Android mobile phone (maybe to "show-off in Starbucks - Keoni29" ;) ) instead and a much cheaper calc for the examination needs. Of course, they can always lower it later if the actual selling numbers fall behind the expectations.
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Yeah, the thing we need to do is see if it's possible to install a 3rd party OS on it and if not, then see if it's possible to created hacked apps (if it's possible to install apps) and finally, see if there are bugs inside the OS that allows one to launch ASM code.
As for the price I wonder how much was the HP 50g when it launched? Now it's $149.99, which is almost as much as a TI-Nspire CX. However, the HP 39gII, despite having a much faster OS, is like $105. I can't see how HP will be able to charge $200 for a calc in USA. They'll probably have to drop their price to the same as competition, even if their hardware is better, or let stores run many sales.
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I'd expect the Prime to be priced similarly to the Nspire. I think it was mentioned in one of these articles that the MSRP in Europe was projected to be about the same as the Nspire. I would expect no less in the United States.
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We still don't know (at least, i don't) the exact hardware architecture of the calc, except for a few details that have surfaced: a touch-screen, a 400MHz ARM cpu, 256Mb of flash and 32Mb of ram. It looks to me it shouldn't be too difficult to install on it some sort of Linux variant, namely Android.
Samsung S3C2416, as posted elsewhere by tw, and that chip does indeed already have good Linux support ;)
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Actually, HP Prime is still quite a bit new for the majority of the people (me included). After some more googling we can find a lot of scattered info, though. Yesterday, i found the HP Prime Wiki (http://tiplanet.org/hpwiki/HP_Prime) which is already a good starter. What i haven't found yet is a good "HP Prime for Dummies" sort of tutorial, which would spark further interest and increase the number of potential users. For developers, perhaps some of our HP programming gurus will find some spare time to write a more entertaining/convincing demo. ;)
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The Quick Start Guide is a must read and the manual is a recommended read, I'd say :)
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Yeah the quick start guide and the instruction manual are the best place so far, then if you want to learn further on programming, the HP Prime wiki. Keep in mind that some versions of the manual are outdated, though (they're merely HP 39gII manuals renamed to HP Prime)