Omnimaga

Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 11:03:15 am

Title: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 11:03:15 am
(http://mattias.refeyton.fr/Buwer.jpg)

Yup, seems there's a new TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition coming soon with a color screen akin to the Casio Prizm and the Nspire CX. This morning, Cemetech member 0rac343 leaked the first known picture of the new calculator (http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8429), saying his school got 2 full sets (24 calcs) to test it out. Outside the color screen, not much has changed in terms of functionality, it runs the latest Mathprint OS. Not much else is known, like app compatibility, if the programs written for older versions of the 83+ series will work correctly, if the z80 processor stayed the same, if there's still ASM support, etc. The screen is believed to be 340x240, according to Kerm Martian. A page on TI's website (http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/nonProductSingle/global_forms_ti84plusc.html) about it also have been discovered, confirming the news. Critor, who often get insider news directly from TI, also confirmed the news, saying it's not fake. He can't confirm anything else and points out those questions:

This is a pretty interesting move from TI, they likely wanted to offer a better competition to the Casio Prizm with CX-like functionality brought to their 83+ line, or to maybe even update their old outdated hardware with modern one. As I said, not much is known outside the fact it's a TI-84+SE with a color screen. We are eager to get more news about this, and we hope tons of new color games and utilities such as a color port of Reign of Legends 3 and color support in Axe will appear soon on Omnimaga :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Yeong on November 08, 2012, 11:08:06 am
wat O.O
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 11:16:30 am
Wohoo!
I might put this on deviantart :p

edit: figured that's not really smart or so XD
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Hayleia on November 08, 2012, 11:22:16 am
The xkcd no longer applies :P

But if there was compatibility with current calcs, maybe Axe will exist in color *.*
That would be AWESOME :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 11:25:36 am
It seems there is. But that's not my greatest concern. The biggest question to me is
(http://www.willitblend.com/img/logo.jpg)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 11:32:36 am
A bigger resolution screen would be nice. 96*64 is just too small for games. Give us at least 240*128
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Eeems on November 08, 2012, 11:35:15 am
What I want to know is how hard is it to work with the screen now? Displaying to the screen etc on the 83+/84+/SE was a PITA. Most programs were slowed down due to displaying to the screen and not due to their engine being slow.
In TBP I decided to skip 4 frames in order to get a good speed out of my game. So "physics" is perfomed 4 times before the screen is updated.

So, how big is the screen buffer going to have to be now? How long will it take to update the screen. How hard is accessing the screen memory going to be? All questions I want answered :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 11:36:45 am
well since it's at least going to be faster displaying stuff should be less PITAish.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 11:38:59 am
I assume since the screen is bigger, the processor will be faster to deal with this, pretty much like how Casio moved from B&W to color. The Prizm is similar in functionality to the fx-9860, IIRC, only with a color screen added. Looks like TI is doing pretty much the same.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 11:42:20 am
Any chance of an NES emulator on this thing?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 11:46:05 am
We don't even know how it is to be programmed, but seeing how stuff sounds I'd say yes.
And calc84maniac GBC emu+sound gogogo :3
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Eeems on November 08, 2012, 11:46:16 am
aeTIos: That is assuming it actually is faster at displaying on the code end. Most of the wasted cycles are us waiting for the screen to tell us it's ready for more data.
Keoni29: No idea. We don't know enough about the hardware and how open it will be.
Juju: That brings into question, will it still be a z80 chip or will it be a new ARM chip?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 11:50:29 am
Yeah, as Critor pointed out in the news, it might be a Nspire with a 84+ emulator and a permanent 84+ keypad.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 01:01:07 pm
Are these gonna be cheaper than regular nspires? If so: we might be able to hack it into a regular nspire for less money!
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: pimathbrainiac on November 08, 2012, 01:03:46 pm
The TI link was discovered by moi... Anyway, ME GUSTA!!!!!!
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Levak on November 08, 2012, 01:15:20 pm
So "physics" is perfomed 4 times before the screen is updated.
This also applies to computer programs. Thus, your argument is invalid :3
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Runer112 on November 08, 2012, 01:24:52 pm
Not that it matters much, but since I took the time to make it I may as well post it here in case anybody wants it. Here's my attempt at perspective-correcting the image: (maybe useful for screen measurements)



*Click for larger image*
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/ti84plusc.jpg) (http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/ti84plusc.jpg)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 01:25:52 pm
So "physics" is perfomed 4 times before the screen is updated.
This also applies to computer programs. Thus, your argument is invalid :3
Uhu, but the refresh rate is about 60-90Hz
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 08, 2012, 01:41:11 pm
Because I'm pessimistic and skeptical, I suspect it will have poor compatibility and be locked down. If it is based on a Z80 running software based on the TI-84+ OS, it will probably come with BOOT 1.04, which will feature 8192-bit encryption---not just signing---, and will take approximately half an hour to validate.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 01:43:11 pm
I'll try to determine the resolution using photoshop
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 08, 2012, 01:43:19 pm
A color screen on a Z80? Isn't the TI-84+ slow enough already?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 01:44:34 pm
Read the other posts. It's probably a nspire in disguise.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 08, 2012, 01:45:38 pm
Uh, even if it is, then it would not be using a Z80, would it? Because the Z80 is like maxed out in the 84+

-- EDIT: Oh nvm, " if the z80 processor stayed the same" - didn't read the "if"
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Lionel Debroux on November 08, 2012, 01:46:45 pm
At the time of this writing, nobody has sufficient definite information about the calculator, I'm afraid...
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: chickendude on November 08, 2012, 01:53:33 pm
An 83+ with higher resolution and non-shitty LCD would be awesome, much more exciting in my opinion than a hampered nSpire packaged as an 84+. I really doubt they'd take asm compatibility away from an 83+, i would totally get one if that's what it turns out to be!
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 01:54:06 pm
Me too.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 08, 2012, 01:54:55 pm
I'm betting it just runs a similar OS to the 84+, and really has an ARM processor. I wouldn't call that 'hampered' though, in the same way I wouldn't call a desktop running CLI linux hampered. A smaller OS leads to faster math.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 08, 2012, 02:00:47 pm
TI still has the option of upping to clock rate of the CPU to at least 20 MHz; supposedly, they experimented with clock speeds of up to 25 MHz on the TI-83+SE, which was, for the young folks, the beta version of the TI-84+/SE.

I also second the idea of it being based on the Nspire, with the OS user interface rewritten to look like the UI of the TI-83+ series so that it's more familiar to teachers, who are of course the people TI actually markets graphing calculators too.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 08, 2012, 02:03:21 pm
And maybe they'll just decide to stick a second Z80 in there for graphical purposes.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 08, 2012, 02:04:00 pm
20 mHz is deathly slow nowadays, though. It would be far easier for them to base it off of the nspire architecture, with a new OS.

On a side note, I hope it is based off the nspire, because that would mean it would be fairly easy to port the linux launcher to it!

Oh, and the fact that it's running a higher resolution, color screen means that it's almost definitely not running the old 84+ emulator. If it is, I will be.....displeased.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 02:10:20 pm
Linux on the 84+ all of my yes.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 02:15:18 pm
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/analyzation.jpg)
Judging from the analyzation I can conclude that they used the standard 83+ font. My guess is that it's scaled up 3 times. With that given we can calculate the resolution which is estimated at:
normal char width=4pixels
times 3
times 39 char that fit on the screen here
4*39*3= approximately 468 pixels wide

Now: if the aspect ratio of the image is correct we can easily estimate the height wich is about 355 pixels

From a programmers perspective I would say that the resolution is approximately:
480*320

Edit: it might just be a font twice as big. then the res is most likely the same as an nspire
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 08, 2012, 02:17:08 pm
the heckO.o
Adriweb said it was 320*240 and I'm tempted to believe that since that's also the nspire res so I bet it's the same screen (not sure tho)
edit: which is not possible.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 02:20:22 pm
Edited. It might be the same size as the nspire. The picture is not very clear. If the font it just 8 pixels wide then it's nspire size.
The thin graph lines might just be image compression.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: calc84maniac on November 08, 2012, 02:23:43 pm
That's definitely not the same font. Just look at the N.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 08, 2012, 02:25:24 pm
Well I quite believe it's 320x240.
Weird that you found differently, but I may be wrong ^^
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 02:27:44 pm
That's definitely not the same font. Just look at the N.
That's just windows scaling it big time. The shape of the other letters match.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: calc84maniac on November 08, 2012, 02:30:49 pm
No, I mean, a capital N in the normal small font is like:

XX
X X
X X
X X
X X
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 02:33:55 pm
Ah I see what you mean. Still it's 3 pixels wide plus one empty space in between chars. That's just obvious. The scale determines what the resolution is. Yes it might be a different font. That means that they might rewrite the GUI entirely.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 08, 2012, 02:42:53 pm
They already have to rewrite the entire gui. It's currently based around drawing routines that are extremely pixel-based, and for a very specific resolution.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: ben_g on November 08, 2012, 02:56:06 pm
I wonder if they have also increased the memory size. Well, they kinda have too, since a 320*240 graphic buffer is, assuming a very common 16bpp, 153600 bytes. This is way more than will fit in RAM. In fact, it's so much larger that this calc will probably have more RAM memory than the old 84+ has flash.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 02:57:58 pm
Why are they even calling this a ti84+? Because otherwise teachers will ban it from exams?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: ElementCoder on November 08, 2012, 02:58:01 pm
Now this reminds me why calculators are epic :P I want this 0.0
[edit]^ maybe because it would be too much work to add another calc to the chart of approved calcs because of all the tests etc?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 08, 2012, 03:05:05 pm
Crazy thought: They give it 32 MB and the old CPU, to use up all the chips left over from making non-CX nspires, but they're using the color screens from the CX, and the 84+ enclosure.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 08, 2012, 03:10:41 pm
No since this will probably have an internal battery and the screen area is different. The main black part is made up out of 3 sections whereas the original 84+SE has 2 main parts
(http://mathcs.albion.edu/~mbollman/TI84+SE2.jpg)
So they will be producing different enclosures. However TI recycled old hardware in the past, so it might be possible.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 05:25:28 pm
Most Epic News Ever.
I'll wait now before I'll buy a new calc :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 08, 2012, 06:24:20 pm
I guess it's kind of like the iPad mini, to please more people and getting rid of old hardware at the same time
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 08, 2012, 06:36:30 pm
Especially since calculator hardware gets them a higher profit margin than anything else they've ever sold.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 06:37:29 pm
Hopefully this will also power up the community activity/me stares at omnis low activity
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 08, 2012, 06:51:33 pm
I photoshopped the image quite a bit, and here's the result : (hosted here originally : http://tiplanet.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fichier:TI-84_Plus_C_Silver_Edition.png)
(http://tiplanet.org/wiki/images/7/78/TI-84_Plus_C_Silver_Edition.png) (http://tiplanet.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fichier:TI-84_Plus_C_Silver_Edition.png)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 06:54:18 pm
Haha, it looks cool IMO! awesome work :D
EDIT: How added the calc to wikipedia? ;)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Yeong on November 08, 2012, 07:15:12 pm
So is the still z80?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 07:16:44 pm
We don't know, it could be or it could be that it just emulates a z80
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 08, 2012, 07:20:01 pm
I created a page on TI-Planet's wiki : http://tiplanet.org/wiki/index.php?title=TI-84_Plus_C_Silver_Edition
But yeah, obviously it's quite empty.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: cooliojazz on November 08, 2012, 07:26:24 pm
Maybe they'll use an eZ80! =D Wouldn't that be awesome? haha
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 08, 2012, 07:32:12 pm
A MUL instruction! Pipe-lining! There would be orgasms amongst assembly programmers!
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 08:14:50 pm
Maybe they'll use an eZ80! =D Wouldn't that be awesome? haha
what is a ez80?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 08, 2012, 08:17:21 pm
According to Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZ80
Quote
The Zilog eZ80 is an 8-bit microprocessor which is essentially an updated version of the company's earlier Z80 8-bit microprocessor.

The eZ80 (like the Z380) is binary compatible with the Z80 and Z180, but almost four times as fast as the original Z80 chip at the same clock frequency. Available at up to 50 MHz (2004), the performance is comparable to a Z80 clocked at 200 MHz if fast memory is used (i.e. no wait states for opcode fetches, for data, or for I/O) or even higher in some applications (a 16-bit addition is 11 times as fast as in the original). The eZ80 also supports direct continuous addressing of 16 MB of memory without a memory management unit, by extending most registers (HL, BC, DE, IX, IY, SP, and PC) from 16 to 24 bits.

The processor has a 24-bit ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit) and overlapped processing of several instructions (a so called pipeline) which are the two primary reasons for its speed. Unlike the older Z280 and Z380 it does not have (or need) a cache memory. Instead, it is intended to work with fast SRAM directly as main memory (as this has become much cheaper). Nor does it have the multiplexed bus of the Z280, making it as easy to work with (interface to) as the original Z80 and Z180, and equally predictable when it comes to exact execution times.

The chip has a memory interface that is similar to the original Z80, including the bus request/acknowledge pins, and adds four integrated chip selects. Versions are available with on-chip flash memory and on-chip zero wait-state SRAM (up to 256 KB Flash memory and 16 KB SRAM) but there are also external buses on all models. The eZ80 supports a free TCP/IP stack and operating system based on the Xinu operating system, as well as a real-time kernel.


Indeed, that would be pretty darn cool :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 08:25:44 pm
Oh, nice! Let's have a 50MHZ calc :D (compared to 16 MHZ)
and I'm wondering if ti reads along all this....
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: cooliojazz on November 08, 2012, 08:25:54 pm
eZ80 is what was planned for the Z80 OTCalc (http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=122.0) before that whole project died =(
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 08:32:01 pm
Why did it die? D:
And i wonder if there will be a non-silver edition of the 84+c
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 08, 2012, 08:33:29 pm
Oh, nice! Let's have a 50MHZ calc :D (compared to 16 MHZ)
and I'm wondering if ti reads along all this....
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure they do :D
(also, a LOT of visits from TI on tiplanet actually come from Omnimaga (referral))
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 08, 2012, 09:43:37 pm
O EM GEE. WUT DON'T FUCKING TEASE ME TI, IS IT APRIL 1 AND I SOMEHOW MISSED IT?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 09:44:21 pm
O EM GEE. WUT DON'T FUCKING TEASE ME TI, IS IT APRIL 1 AND I SOMEHOW MISSED IT?
That was exactly my first thought when seeing this XD
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 08, 2012, 09:45:55 pm
It has a memory screen right? Can't we at least see how much memory that thing has?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 09:47:40 pm
Where it all comes from on cemetech (http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8429) and if you read through discussion you'll see that Orac's (http://www.cemetech.net/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1949) school has some of them as testing and that he wants to look into doing that.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: annoyingcalc on November 08, 2012, 09:55:29 pm
NO F****** WAY! THIS IS AMAZING

(what will the price be)

I WILL SO BUY THIS
/me high fives TI
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: pimathbrainiac on November 08, 2012, 09:56:30 pm
YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 08, 2012, 10:48:49 pm
Darn that looks quite great. I'm really curious about some stuff though:

-The most important thing is if old programs will run or if there will be a compatibility mode? With 84 Plus being part of the name, I would assume TI is not stupid enough to break compatibility with previous 84+ 2.55MP programs or add a way to allow them to run, but again we already saw what they did with the TI-82 STATS (it's basically a 83 in disguise so it won't run 82 games)

-I assume that TI-BASIC programs will at least run and that the speed will not be much slower than it is on the 84+, given TI's record of not pulling BASIC languages slower than Casio. However, how will the Line(), Pxl-On, Pt-On, etc commands will behave? Remember how shitty FX-9860G graphical games looked like on the PRIZM...

-Will it finally part ways with TI-Connect/linking softwares, allowing us to use the calc in mass storage device mode by default like the PRIZM?

-Is the processor the same? If that's the case, then maybe porting games might not be too hard.

-How much TI will charge for that calc? If they want to cater to 83+ users, they definitively will have to charge much less than the 84+SE, especially if they have plans to phase out the 83+ and 84+ one day. In Quebec, a TI-83+ costs $130, a TI-84+ $150, a TI-84+SE $175 and TI-Nspire CX (without the CAS) $185.

-And of course, will it be locked down like the Nspire?

The great news though is that there will at least be a TI color calc that uses an interface that is almost identical to the old z80 models, so it should be far easier for people to switch, like people switching from older Casio calcs to the PRIZM (the PRIZM has the exact same interface as the FX-9860G, but with color and higher resolution)
Oh, nice! Let's have a 50MHZ calc :D (compared to 16 MHZ)
and I'm wondering if ti reads along all this....
Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure they do :D
(also, a LOT of visits from TI on tiplanet actually come from Omnimaga (referral))

About 98% of TI-Planet visits are from Omnimaga? :trollface:
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 08, 2012, 11:01:25 pm
oh, and will it have extra ram? (probably not, lol)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: calc84maniac on November 08, 2012, 11:02:17 pm
oh, and will it have extra ram? (probably not, lol)
It's gotta have more RAM if it's going to be handling all those pixels.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Juju on November 08, 2012, 11:03:19 pm
(http://soshable.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
Unless they mess up everything.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 08, 2012, 11:09:57 pm
SOmething I just saw that I like a lot: See attachment below, which shows the calc fonts zoomed in. Notice how they look very close to the standard small TI fonts? To me, it seems like that calc might be trying in some ways to not break graphical compatibility too much. And if the image quality happens to be poor and the fonts are actually pixelated IRL, then that's even better.

I hope to see more info and if possible some tests.

The good thing is that according to calc84maniac, the guy said Asm commands were still present in the CATALOG.
Why did it die? D:
And i wonder if there will be a non-silver edition of the 84+c

EDIT: Nvm got confused with Cooliojazz file editor project. Anyway OTcalc died because it could only progress during Summer due to school work.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: annoyingcalc on November 08, 2012, 11:14:41 pm
:trollface" TI is probably gonna screw it up like getting rid of asm support
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 12:01:57 am
I hope it doesn't come with OS 2.71 MP... (well, it wouldn't due to AsmComp/prgm being present, but I mean all the bugs...) O.O
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 12:37:25 am
I still wonder whether it tries to emulate an 84+ at all, or is just a rewrite of the OS. IMO, the latter is far preferable. (Don't make me use emulated assembly! Let me use REAL assembly! Arm assembly is so much easier!)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 09:44:48 am
Something I wonder is if it actually has two processors like the Game Boy Advance, which had an ARM processor for GBA games and a z80 one for GBC games? Maybe when launching a 84+ ASM file it tries to emulate it? In any case I have doubts that an ASM game would run at all if it's a totally rewritten 84+ OS for a different processor, and if it's a compatible processor, I am sure that some parts will need to be changed like we had to do between the TI-83/82 STATS and the 83+
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 09, 2012, 09:47:08 am
I wonder, is the z80 very expensive? if not, that would be the best solution for them. (IMAO)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Dark_Sunrise on November 09, 2012, 10:29:24 am
YAY!!!! I can't wait... it will probably be expensive, but it looks pretty :)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Eeems on November 09, 2012, 11:05:20 am
aeTIos: z80 chips are dirt cheap compared to an ARM chip.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 09, 2012, 11:23:57 am
SOmething I just saw that I like a lot: See attachment below, which shows the calc fonts zoomed in. Notice how they look very close to the standard small TI fonts? To me, it seems like that calc might be trying in some ways to not break graphical compatibility too much. And if the image quality happens to be poor and the fonts are actually pixelated IRL, then that's even better.

I hope to see more info and if possible some tests.

The good thing is that according to calc84maniac, the guy said Asm commands were still present in the CATALOG.
Why did it die? D:
And i wonder if there will be a non-silver edition of the 84+c

EDIT: Nvm got confused with Cooliojazz file editor project. Anyway OTcalc died because it could only progress during Summer due to school work.
I stated this earlier. It became apparent that the there is just one character that differs from the standard small font which is the N. Assuming that the font is scaled up twice the resolution is about 320 x 240pixels which is the same as the nspire.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 09, 2012, 11:28:05 am
Zilong does not manufacture most Z80s; rather, they licensed the design to many other companies royalty-free. It is this license that lets TI manufacture calculator ASICs with an embedded Z80. Basically, TI paid a free for the Z80 design once more than a decade ago, and can now manufacture as many Z80-based graphing calculators as they want without having to pay anything more to Zilog. Also, the ASIC probably contains no other IP cores, so TI essentially manufactures ASICs for the literal silicon cost only. (And the LCD controller costs about a dollar a piece, and the flash chips are less than two dollars a piece, and the calculator contains no other digital ICs.)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 09, 2012, 11:29:34 am
Soo it might be safe to say that a z80 might cost $5 at max?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 09, 2012, 11:31:59 am
Soo it might be safe to say that a z80 might cost $5 at max?
A z-80 costs 20 cents at max :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 12:18:40 pm
They have manufacturing rights for their ARM chips too. Once you have the tools set up to manufacture a silicon chip, the cost for more chips drops by a significant margin. Keep in mind they make the chips themselves. They don't buy them from someone else.

An arm chip would cost them around $1 to include in something like this. Not a huge price increase considering that they'll be selling it for at least $100.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Nosferatu Arucard 1983 on November 09, 2012, 01:41:19 pm
The ZX Spectrum had a old Z80 processor and was capable to draw 8 colours in a 256×192 matrix pattern, but it use several hacks to save memory. This new TI84 may be a ARM machine with all code rewritten in native ARM.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 09, 2012, 01:50:04 pm
You cannot compare the ZX spectrum to a modern calculator. The ZX spectrum did not have a dedicated graphics chip. These calculators however will have state of the art better lcd drivers.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: AngelFish on November 09, 2012, 01:57:46 pm
A driver would be necessary no matter what the system is like. Even your computer with a fancy GPU has a screen driver to handle the low level hardware management. It's also not that big of a difference, since even the current z80s could handle a color screen with a proper driver, albeit slowly. The difference is speed and cost of production. Rewriting the OS in ARM/C, debugging it, and then making sure a new hardware platform works well with the OS is expensive. I would not be surprised at all to find that this calculator is a derivative of the Nspire for no other reason than development costs on TI's end, especially considering that any production costs they have are passed onto the consumer at a steep markup.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 09, 2012, 02:12:02 pm
Btw is the calc on the photo a production model or a prototype? Will the consumer OS feature the same GUI?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Lionel Debroux on November 09, 2012, 03:32:07 pm
Quote
Btw is the calc on the photo a production model or a prototype?
Probably a prototype reasonably close to the final model. Back in the day, the pilot classes were equipped with Nspire CAS+, before they scrapped that model.

Quote
Will the consumer OS feature the same GUI?
Probably something close to it, unless it has something incomplete / wrong enough (or whatever other defect) for TI spending another year to fix it up. AFAWCT from observing the dates, that's exactly what occurred with the Nspire CAS+.

EDIT: fix tag pairs.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 09, 2012, 03:32:25 pm
Btw is the calc on the photo a production model or a prototype? Will the consumer OS feature the same GUI?
Good question but I believe that if this is some "final prototype", it wil lstill look the same, and that pretty much applies to the OS look too. But of course, for the OS, that can change over time anyway.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 04:49:00 pm
One problem is if TI uses a much more powerful processor, will they finally drive away from their XKCD #768 mentality or will the cost of the calc be proportional to 83+ specs? :P

Also I hope that if the calc in the pic is a prototype that it will remain the same in the final release. It would suck if for example they scrapped Asm at the very end.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: apcalc on November 09, 2012, 06:49:04 pm
Wow, this is incredible news! :D ;D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 07:04:28 pm
By the way I'm buying it the second it comes out over here. That's of course if the calc doesn't cost something like $192 or so. <_< (seeing how high TI charges for calcs in Canada)

Quote from: http://business.financialpost.com/2012/09/13/wii-u-release-date-price/
Nintendo has confirmed that the Wii U console will have the same price in Canada and the United States.

TI... why can't you do like Nintendo? D:
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 07:12:37 pm
I don't see why so many people think it will be z80 based. That option just seems very unlikely, considering how TI has significantly better options. Why on earth would you make a graphics chip that can interface with a 16-bit processor, but can run a true color, 320x240 display, when you can replace both with an ARM processor that you just happen to already manufacture, not to mention having the OS backend all set up.

They don't care about assembly compatibility. At all.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 08:07:08 pm
Well, to be honest I am not too sure if TI would be willing to recode the TI-OS entirely unless they've been doing so for a few years already. The only other way it won't be a z80 is if the 84+ C Silver Edition is actually the Nspire 84+ emulator, but modified for the higher resolution and colors.

But yeah maybe they didn't care about ASM compatibility at all and it will totally be a new emu. But then they'll lose a lot of users because one reason why the 83+/84+ are so popular is the large amount of programs already available for it.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 08:15:43 pm
Well, we'll see. Recoding the GUI on top of the nucleus RTOS wouldn't be that much work, though, compared to the work of recoding an OS from scratch.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: calc84maniac on November 09, 2012, 08:19:52 pm
Well, we'll see. Recoding the GUI on top of the nucleus RTOS wouldn't be that much work, though, compared to the work of recoding an OS from scratch.
They're apparently recoding the GUI either way. The question is whether they're really recreating the meat of the OS "from scratch", even if it's on top of Nucleus or whatever.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 09, 2012, 08:25:25 pm
I think they are making it on top of the old stuff, i mean, why should your rewrite all the functions like sin etc.?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 08:27:09 pm
I hope they make it a double-buffered display for BASIC and graphing.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 09, 2012, 08:27:52 pm
But if they won't it will still be possible with asm libs :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 08:28:22 pm
I'm thinking of people who have to use them for math, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 09, 2012, 08:29:16 pm
They don't need double buffering for BASIC, because it is just for math and not for games so random rendering is irrelevant.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 08:36:55 pm
I was referring to the problem with speed. double-buffered graphing would be significantly faster than current graphing. Keep in mind that it refreshes the screen for every pixel the screen is wide. (it might be twice, depending on if the line-drawing mode also draws the pixels) This is because of how TI's bcalls for drawing are set up:

Draw to the buffer
Render to the screen
Return from the call.

It's not an issue of random updates. It's an issue of performance.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 09, 2012, 08:39:31 pm
Oh, that's right, it would speed stuff up then >.>
Maybe it is also possible to speed rendering up by just using b/w ?
I'm new to color stuff :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 09, 2012, 09:02:20 pm
I hope they make it a double-buffered display for BASIC and graphing.
What would be double-buffering in that case? Do you mean it would be faster to switch between screens or do you mean split screen? I personally don't want BASIC games to be windowed like in TI-Nspire BASIC D:

Also if it's built on top of Nucleus and kinda partially emulated, I hope that TI won't use a slower ARM processor, because then TI-BASIC will be even slower than on a 84+. X.x (in 84+ mode on the Nspire, if you have OS 2.0 or higher, the speed is exactly the same as a real TI-84+). Remember what happened to Casio BASIC on the PRIZM? D: (Although I seriously doubt it will deteriorate that drastically on TI's new color calc)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 09, 2012, 11:38:10 pm
Have no fear, DJ. Double buffering has nothing to do with split screens.

LCD displays require dedicated RAM to store their current image. This is their first buffer. Single-buffered drawing writes directly to it. However, since this involves dealing with the display controller, it's slower than normal RAM access, and it results in screen flickering.

In Axe, and most Assembly programs, we use a 'double buffer' which is simply a copy of what will be displayed stored in RAM. This is copied over once all drawing actions on it are finished, resulting in only one slow copy, rather than one for every action.

TIOS, however, is even worse: It runs a double buffer setup, but it copies it to the single buffer every time it does a drawing action. Since these drawing actions are very small (well, except bitmap) the resulting performance is as bad as a single-buffer solution in every way, but also takes up the extra RAM of a double buffer solution.

The best place to see this in action is in TI's apps, like the periodic table. You can see each line being drawn, with significant delay. A double-buffered display would draw it in RAM, then copy the picture over to the display RAM, resulting in a far smoother application.


And yes, it would be terrible if they make no improvements and just use the old emulator plus some color.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 12:14:43 am
Also TI-OS routines are slow to display stuff in the first place. No wonder why some ASM/Axe coders use custom font routines x.x
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: ralphdspam on November 10, 2012, 12:15:35 am
If this is an ARM processor, I can't wait to see how long it would take to hack the Nspire OS onto it.

That would be a terrible waste to make it an emulator for its opperation.  I really hope it has an eZ80 core.  The faster clock speed and single-cycle instruction execution would be a great enhancement to existing assembly programs.

Let's hope they don't mess this up.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 12:21:28 am
Well an emulator is plausible, given TI record on being kinda lazy  (eg: how they used a pre-made software for most of the Nspire OS and did not bother removing unused stuff). If it's really an emulator, I wouldn't be surprised if we found Nspire OS leftovers in the OS disassembly.

Also nice to see you around Ralph :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 10, 2012, 01:08:49 am
There's pretty much no chance of the ez80, since AFAICT Texas Instruments never licensed it from zilog. In fact, it doesn't look like anyone did.

It would be really cool if we could get the nspire CAS OS running on this thing. The keys would be wrong, but the CAS touchpad OS never complained about using an 84+ keypad.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: calc84maniac on November 10, 2012, 01:15:29 am
Considering how cheap they are, I doubt they'd put that much RAM in this thing (128KB -> 48KB anyone?), even if it is identical to the Nspire hardware in every other way (which we also can't assume).
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 10, 2012, 02:07:59 am
Well, I wouldn't be surprised to see the old 32MB RAM chips from the old nspire in it, or maybe a bit lower. I don't think the 84+ emu could run in RAM amounts too much lower, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 04:08:06 am
Considering how cheap they are, I doubt they'd put that much RAM in this thing (128KB -> 48KB anyone?), even if it is identical to the Nspire hardware in every other way (which we also can't assume).
Although they have to do something about the screen. I don't think people will like if their 8xi images take the entire RAM.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 10, 2012, 08:02:34 am
Who knows, maybe the 8xi images will stay at the lower resolution X.x
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 10, 2012, 09:49:27 am
Hey, maybe someone wants to put it as news, i'm not sure ? If so, just tell me , I'll copy/paste

But anyway, I've made a history of how the 84C got discovered etc. :
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?lang=en&p=132106#p132106

(French + English ;) )


EDIT : I've been advised that it can go to news :P http://ourl.ca/17436.new#new
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 10, 2012, 11:32:15 am
Although it's unlikely, I'd love for this thing to be running an EZ80. :D Larger screen res. and more memory would be great as well... For those of you saying a normal Z80 with color wouldn't be that great I'd like to remind you that many older computers(MSX, ZX Spectrum) and game systems (Gameboy color, Sega Master System/Game Gear) Used Z80's and had color.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 10, 2012, 11:34:57 am
Yes, but they had a lower resolution.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 10, 2012, 12:03:11 pm
I hope that everything will still be possible and that they emulate the pixels of the 84+ well :D
And to the pictures, maybe they are adding a new data format for color ones and both works then?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: ralphdspam on November 10, 2012, 12:50:24 pm
Please also be mindful that the older color systems with z80 hardware were not full color; hardware sprites or tiles could only have a few colors at a time.  This artifact can be easily seen in "attribute clashing" of the ZX Spectrum graphics.  In the Sega MasterSystem/GameGear and MSX, Texas Instruments' TMS9918 IC made these artifacts less apparent with the use of movable sprites. 

[I lied.  The TMS9918 does in fact have a rarely used mode that would map a single color to each pixel, but it had drawbacks in resolution.]

I assume from the picture that TI is not using a tiling method to display color on their screen.  Mapping one color per pixel is much more CPU intensive.

EDIT: Maybe not too intensive if they use a good DMA.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 10, 2012, 01:45:55 pm
Quote
Please also be mindful that the older color systems with z80 hardware were not full color; hardware sprites or tiles could only have a few colors at a time.
That adds to nostalgia feelings :3
I remember playing pokemon crystal with my friend on a GBC and we were totally stunned on the graphics  :')

(by the way we need a emoticon on that)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 10, 2012, 02:52:52 pm
That's ture ralph, but we have better technology today as well. ;)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 03:16:13 pm
Please also be mindful that the older color systems with z80 hardware were not full color; hardware sprites or tiles could only have a few colors at a time.  This artifact can be easily seen in "attribute clashing" of the ZX Spectrum graphics.  In the Sega MasterSystem/GameGear and MSX, Texas Instruments' TMS9918 IC made these artifacts less apparent with the use of movable sprites. 

[I lied.  The TMS9918 does in fact have a rarely used mode that would map a single color to each pixel, but it had drawbacks in resolution.]

I assume from the picture that TI is not using a tiling method to display color on their screen.  Mapping one color per pixel is much more CPU intensive.

EDIT: Maybe not too intensive if they use a good DMA.

This reminds me of the 1995/96 Casio graphing calcs that had a color screen. The contrast settings were basically replaced with 3 color settings that were still labelled as contrast. But in fact from the lowest to highest contrast, it went from blank->yellow->orange->red->brown->purple->blue->green and there were 3 color settings. So basically, you kinda had a palette of 3 colors at a time, add to that a 4th color for the LCD background (which could range from yellow-ish to slightly orange-ish color and that could alter the 3 other colors as well). If those calcs ever had the possibility to run ASM without flashing the ROM chip, then imagine if a program could modify each contrast settings as it wishes: You could basically have games like on the NES where colors are stored in a palette, but with 4 colors at once instead of 3 and one of them which is limited to two colors.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: tr1p1ea on November 10, 2012, 06:14:28 pm
I wonder how this will impact battery life?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 06:18:58 pm
I'm betting it will use a rechargeable battery (li-on) like the Nspire Touchpad and  CX models. I think they last a few hours and gets charged completely in a few hours as well (except the first time which can take like 5-6)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: flyingfisch on November 10, 2012, 06:20:57 pm
why wouldn't it use regular AAA's? the prizm does, and it has pretty good batt life. (actually, prizm allows both).
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Rhombicuboctahedron on November 10, 2012, 06:27:56 pm
I'm betting it will use a rechargeable battery (li-on) like the Nspire Touchpad and  CX models. I think they last a few hours and gets charged completely in a few hours as well (except the first time which can take like 5-6)
It says it has 100 hours of battery life, and two weeks under normal usage, although I never seem to get 100 hours out of it, and since I might use my calculator 10 hours a day instead of the normal half hour, it doesn’t last me too long either.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 06:29:04 pm
By 100 hours, they include hours where you don't use the calc at all and by normal usage, I think it's one hour a day of calculations.

why wouldn't it use regular AAA's? the prizm does, and it has pretty good batt life. (actually, prizm allows both).
Because the TI-Nspire CX doesn't and there are speculations that the new 84 might be built after the Nspire CX hardware, it is likely that TI is moving towards the lithium battery world for those advanced calcs. Plus I am sure they heard a lot about people who hate having to spend $2-10 every month on new batteries. Also in my Clickpad with cheap AAA batteries, if I play gbc4nspire, my calc lasts about 10 minutes (and about 3-5 hours with good batteries that costs $10). With my CX with the built-in battery, I get about 3-5 hours of gaming before it finally runs out of power.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Rhombicuboctahedron on November 10, 2012, 06:31:21 pm
That can’t be right, that would be 4 days of battery life, which is not 2 weeks.

Plus I am sure they heard a lot about people who hate having to spend $2-10 every month on new batteries.
What I hate is that the rechargeable batteries cant be removed.

Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: flyingfisch on November 10, 2012, 06:31:34 pm
PRIZM batteries last 1-2 months with ~2-4hr. of usage... for me at least. Do TI calc use more battery?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Rhombicuboctahedron on November 10, 2012, 06:35:31 pm
PRIZM batteries last 1-2 months with ~2-4hr. of usage... for me at least. Do TI calc use more battery?
Its strange, but sometimes I find myself having to charge it every 1-2 days, other times I find myself recharging it every 1-2 weeks, even with near identical amounts of usage.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: flyingfisch on November 10, 2012, 06:37:21 pm
PRIZM batteries last 1-2 months with ~2-4hr. of usage... for me at least. Do TI calc use more battery?
Its strange, but sometimes I find myself having to charge it every 1-2 days, other times I find myself recharging it every 1-2 weeks, even with near identical amounts of usage.

really? maybe you have unreliable batteries?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 06:38:11 pm
When shut down, the TI-Nspire enters standby mode for a day or two before shutting off for real (in which case, restarting it brings up the booting screen), so even when  not in use, it still uses some power, which isn't the case with the PRIZM.

Also I think the battery on the Nspire can be removed, but you need a screwdriver and buy the battery online.

On my PRIZM, when I used the batteries that came with the calc, they lasted one entire year before I had to change them. With cheap batteries bought at Dollarama, they last a month or two.

The Nspire CX is kinda like mobile phones in the way that even when not used (especially the iPhone), you still lose power, while with the PRIZM and older calcs, you only lose power if you use cheap batteries and stop using the calc with the batteries in for a month or so.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Rhombicuboctahedron on November 10, 2012, 06:39:13 pm
It might just be that I think I use it the same amount of time, or possibly those will be weeks when I download more onto my calculator, and thus it recharges by computer.

Also I think the battery on the Nspire can be removed, but you need a screwdriver and buy the battery online.

Yeah it is supposed to be removable, but neither of my two nspire cx’s have had a removable battery.
With my first one, I did everything like the tutorials told me, putting a knife under it, pulling fast, ect. And finally ripped the cord.
I checked the customer service, and I think it said that it wouldn’t give a new calc if the previous one had been broken.
So I bought another one, (why didn’t I buy a Prizm? I love my cx, but why?), and later tried to remove the battery, and it still didn’t work, but then I just fixed it another way.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 06:43:06 pm
Yeah when you plug it on the computer, it gets recharged (or in OS 2.0.0 case, the calc can break), so that could be why.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 10, 2012, 09:14:43 pm
All electronic devices draw power when turned off, unless the on/off switch is a physical flip switch wired in series with the batteries. For example, the TI-84+ draws 100 microamps when turned off. Even if you remove the four AAAs, the RAM still continues to be powered from the button cell. The only way to truly turn off a device is to remove all batteries (which may be impossible; for example, some RTC ICs have a battery built into the chip package) and discharge all capacitors.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 10, 2012, 09:17:48 pm
One thing I wonder (although offtopic) is how NES cartridges that use backup batteries to keep saved files intact still manage to retain the data/have working batteries even after 25 years, despite most batteries having an expiration date?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: chickendude on November 11, 2012, 02:23:10 am
I had to replace the battery to my old Pokémon silver cartridge when i pulled the game out to play some time last year because saved games weren't working anymore.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 11, 2012, 03:00:10 am
DJ, the batteries do wear out, but it's helped by the system being able to charge them. This helps extend the life as long as the battery can hold out until the next play session, which may well be 10x to 20x its labeled "life-span"
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 11, 2012, 03:30:11 am
Also, SRAM uses very little power when it's not actively being read/written.

On the other hand, the Sonic 3 cart doesn't have a battery. Instead, it uses an alternative to flash/EEPROM called FRAM, so your Sonic 3 saves can last indefinitely.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 05:13:25 am
I see, thanks for the explanation. Back in the days I was sure that cartridges used some sort of ROM or chip to keep data saved until a friend lent me a copy of Super Metroid where saved data kept vanishing every few day. I was told that it was a dying battery or something, but that was only 3 years after the game came out. My Ys III: Wanderers from Ys cartridge had the same problem, but back then I thought that the fact it had 15 save slots (which was very uncommon for a SNES game) was just too much for the battery lol. The Illusion of Gaia copy I tried had similar issues, but far less worse. Years later I was shocked to see many of my NES/SNES games with their save data intact (the last time I checked, only Secret of the Stars kept losing its data). I wonder what could cause batteries to die faster or something...

At least I'm glad my calcs kept my data protected more reliably :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 11, 2012, 08:39:29 am
PRIZM batteries last 1-2 months with ~2-4hr. of usage... for me at least. Do TI calc use more battery?
The nspire does, not in the least because it has almost3 times the processing power of the prizm. (When not overclocked at least)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Yeong on November 11, 2012, 08:48:06 am
from my experience, I think CX lasted a month or so with me keep on playing FF6 Advance quite a lot with overclocking.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Keoni29 on November 11, 2012, 08:52:13 am
I see, thanks for the explanation. Back in the days I was sure that cartridges used some sort of ROM or chip to keep data saved until a friend lent me a copy of Super Metroid where saved data kept vanishing every few day. I was told that it was a dying battery or something, but that was only 3 years after the game came out. My Ys III: Wanderers from Ys cartridge had the same problem, but back then I thought that the fact it had 15 save slots (which was very uncommon for a SNES game) was just too much for the battery lol. The Illusion of Gaia copy I tried had similar issues, but far less worse. Years later I was shocked to see many of my NES/SNES games with their save data intact (the last time I checked, only Secret of the Stars kept losing its data). I wonder what could cause batteries to die faster or something...

At least I'm glad my calcs kept my data protected more reliably :P
I had this problem too with my copy of super metroid. I wound up replacing the battery.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 03:39:45 pm
from my experience, I think CX lasted a month or so with me keep on playing FF6 Advance quite a lot with overclocking.
I wonder if some older programs might just use instructions taking more battery power, because when I play some games my battery got depleted faster.

Also the Cemetech topic got slashdotted :D. They had about 2500 guests online at once at one point! O.O

I hope Ticalc.org picks up the news soon (although based on the first comments on this page, I bet it will probably take until TI announces it themselves http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/14/147/147217.html )
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: critor on November 11, 2012, 03:56:01 pm
More informations on the TI-84 Plus C:
(http://i.imgur.com/hX97x.png?8195)

Source:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10736
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 04:05:30 pm
Wow nice. I think this should also be in omni news :D. However, is it really confirmed that the calc has a z80 processor and that it's fully compatible? It says that it has all functionalities of the 84+, but it doesn't state that the calc has the exact same processor and that it runs ASM programs from the 84+. Couldn't it be an emulated Z80? On top of that, I read that the Z80 can't be overclocked at more than 25 MHz, so I wonder how slow things will be to display on the screen...




Also I wonder how much space that would take on a TI-84+ C SE? O.O

(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/zeldaganonfight.gif)

(That's from Zelda DLQ btw)

EDIT: What DCS in color could look like (although pixelated)

(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/dcscolor.png)

Picture taken from http://www.cemetech.net/news.php?year=2004&month=4&id=38

And ROL3, remade with sprites from the ROL0 remake and a rushed Lekens sprite:

(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/rol3color.png)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 11, 2012, 05:07:50 pm
Are they basing the fact that it's a z80 processor off of this?
Quote
TI has begun previewing the soon to be released TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition graphing calculator. This product will be available in the Spring of 2013. The TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition has all the functionality of the best-selling TI-84 Plus family of graphing calculators - now with color and TI Rechargeable Battery.

If so, I'm still skeptical, (after all, the nspire had "all the capabilities of a TI-84+" but it was not z80.) but if they got confirmation from TI elsewhere...

Functionality does not imply compatibility. Keep in mind this is the marketing department.
Spoiler For relevant dilbert comic:
(http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/20000/0000/800/20867/20867.strip.sunday.gif)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 11, 2012, 05:17:33 pm
Yes, I got confirmed it's a z80.

More details/answers are coming "soon" and HD photos in early January.


edit : lolz dilbert.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: squidgetx on November 11, 2012, 05:24:42 pm
Is a z80 processor going to be enough for driving a color screen? Or will we see some not-shitty screen drivers (at last :O)? I wonder how fast the processor is going to be...
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 11, 2012, 05:28:26 pm
Is a z80 processor going to be enough for driving a color screen? Or will we see some not-shitty screen drivers (at last :O)? I wonder how fast the processor is going to be...
I have asked for the frequency, but I'm not sure I'll get an answer :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 05:37:22 pm
Yes, I got confirmed it's a z80.

More details/answers are coming "soon" and HD photos in early January.


edit : lolz dilbert.

I assume that they're gonna use a modified Z80, because according to Runer112, a Z80 cannot run at more than 25 MHz.

Has anyone tried a TI-Nspire CX with Nover setup at 25 MHz CPU speed? When you select stuff in menus, the frame rate is atrocious. TI is gonna have to do some heavy optimizations if they plan to use a 25 MHz processor with a 320x240x16bpp (or even 8bpp) screen, unless the calc somehow has some sort of extra processor just for video.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 11, 2012, 05:38:37 pm
is an ez80 also considered a z80? since that can run at 50 MHz.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 05:40:23 pm
From what I have read on IRC, TI doesn't own any rights on eZ80 or something, unlike the Z80, so if they need an eZ80 that is much faster than anything already available on the official sites, then they will not be able to create their own.

50 MHz might be just enough, though. The PRIZM runs at 58 MHz and both the menu and home screen still runs at very decent speed. Graphical stuff is only slow because Casio failed hardcore at implementing it.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 11, 2012, 05:41:24 pm
Oh. Well in that case maybe they use 2 Z80s?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 11, 2012, 05:53:45 pm
The ez80 IIRC isn't actually z80 architecture. It has a backwards-compatible z80 mode, similar to how the GBA has a backwards-compatible GBC mode, except built into the processor.

They probably have a single z80 along with a decent display driver. A display driver renders the "not powerful enough for the screen" argument moot, since then the calculator wouldn't even need to store the current screen image in RAM.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 05:58:53 pm
So the screen driver is what processes stuff on the screen? I just don't see how a 15 MHz z80 will be able to produce a decent framerate with such a large screen. The TI-84 C  screen is 200 times more data to transfer than the TI-84 Plus SE LCD. The only way they can achieve it is by optimizing to death and only update the necessary parts of the screen at once (for example if the cursor is moved around). But how slow will RecallPic get?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 11, 2012, 06:06:03 pm
A screen driver is a separate chip, dedicated to running the screen. It would handle the framerate issues and such. The only worry would be the calculator's speed at pushing new images in, so you could even do it with the old 6 mhz CPU. It would just be slow.

The non-color ti-84s and ti-83s already have screen display drivers. They're why we have to sync our grayscale Axe routines (The screen ALWAYs updates at 60hz, regardless of CPU speed.)

RecallPic would probably take a few seconds. So would storepic. They would also take ridiculous amounts of space.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 11, 2012, 06:08:17 pm
A screen driver is similar to a graphics card, just a little slower :p
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 06:08:40 pm
I see. Actually now I tried my PRIZM at 14.5 MHz and my Nspire at 23 (lower than that it said warnings in Nover) and the Nspire had a quite fast cursor movement speed. The PRIZM gave 2 FPS for typing calculations, but the menu had about 4 FPS.

Hopefully they do it right. If the processor is just a Z80 with a decent display driver, do you think the battery will eat batteries much slower than the Nspire CX?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 11, 2012, 10:02:11 pm
Here's my professional opinion: A Z80 is certainly fast enough to handle simple color graphics. The biggest bottleneck in current Z80-series games is the LCD interface. The worst feature is the need to wait several clock cycles after every write. It's just long enough to be a major bottle neck, but not long enough to do anything really useful. However, even if the new driver requires no wait states, a larger screen will still take a lot more CPU power to draw graphics for. The lack of wait states could well be completely offset by the need to compute more graphics data. We'll really need to pray for 25 MHz speed.

How the driver implements color access will have an effect on speed. If it's one nibble per pixel, then graphics access will still be slightly awkward. Unfortunately, any higher resolution precludes a fully memory-mapped solution. The Z80 can directly access up to 65536 bytes of memory, but a 320x240 display has 76800 pixels. Chances are, we'll still have to deal with an LCD driver, and we definitely won't be able to make ready use of a back-buffer for graphics. However, if the LCD driver requires no wait-states, it may actually be an advantage: the LCD driver can handle the multiplication to calculate RAM addresses for us.

We also must wonder whether there will be emulation for the old LCD driver.

Edit: Let me just clarify: If TI optimizes their code (e.g. no wait states, less LCD updating, plotting for every other x, better floating-point routines) and raises the CPU speed, they could still get a reasonable graphing speed. However, a 320x240 display has more than ten times as many pixels as the current 96x64 display, so games may have a tough time drawing full-resolution graphics in real-time.

Another point to consider is how TI will be adding more memory. TI can easily add more memory without significantly reducing profit-margins, but they can't add more flash memory in a manner that current software will be able to access without changes. There is no more room in the memory map for more flash memory, but they could easily add up to 2 MB of RAM. If they want to add more flash, perhaps they will use another set of ports to page the additional memory; or perhaps they will switch to a NAND, and we'll have to contend with reading byte-by-byte from an internal buffer on the NAND; or perhaps they'll completely break the current system.

Here's something bad to consider: as long as they're completely reworking the ASIC, they might as well remove the ability to unlock the boot code. No doubt, with great color comes great restrictions on programmer freedom. But that's why we have people like BrandonW. We are firing up our oscilloscopes! We are reading our disassemblers! Native code! will! be! ours!

But I still think it'll actually turn out to be an Nspire in disguise.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: _Nicco_ on November 11, 2012, 10:05:24 pm
I was planning on getting an 84+SE or an 83+SE but now I think I'll wait.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: ralphdspam on November 11, 2012, 10:24:45 pm
I wonder if they'll use the 16-bit I/O port addresses (with undocumented opcode behavior) to implement the color screen.  Hopefully their ASIC provides full backwards compatibility for ports $10 and $11.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 10:28:33 pm
I wonder if they could manage to fix the RAM Clear issue after crashes by storing a backup of the user RAM into a different RAM area, so when the calc is reset, the last backup from when the calc was last turned OFF is restored from there?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 11, 2012, 10:52:45 pm
I wonder if they could manage to fix the RAM Clear issue after crashes by storing a backup of the user RAM into a different RAM area, so when the calc is reset, the last backup from when the calc was last turned OFF is restored from there?

Omnicalc already has that feature for TI-83+SEs and TI-84+(SE)s with all 128 K of RAM.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 11, 2012, 11:26:43 pm
Yeah I meant implemented by default though lol. That said (off-topic): I wonder if that United-TI hosted copy of Omnicalc for MP OSes is available anywhere else? Because now that UTI merged with Cemetech, all attachments are gone...
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 11, 2012, 11:36:35 pm
I wonder if they could fix the clock being resettet :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 12, 2012, 12:00:59 am
Yeah I meant implemented by default though lol. That said (off-topic): I wonder if that United-TI hosted copy of Omnicalc for MP OSes is available anywhere else? Because now that UTI merged with Cemetech, all attachments are gone...
I wrote that. Here it is again.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 12, 2012, 12:16:35 am
Ok cool :D. Maybe it would be nice to put a link to that file in the Omni downloads section or put it in ticalc.org archives in case people start to find it hard to find again or something.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 12, 2012, 12:31:07 am
I never got enough feedback to feel comfortable posting an official release. It also doesn't work with zStart, because zStart has Omnicalc entry points hard coded into it. That's thepenguin's fault.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 12, 2012, 12:44:19 am
Ah ok, sorry to hear. I wonder if that's the same reason as why Doors doesn't work well with it either. I forgot. (He blames Kerm on the issue, though :P)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 12, 2012, 12:47:16 am
The difference between me and Kerm is that I would add a jump table for him if he asked.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 12, 2012, 01:41:42 am
Maybe Kerm just want people to switch to Doors CS 7 instead :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 12, 2012, 01:57:29 am
More informations on the TI-84 Plus C:
(http://i.imgur.com/hX97x.png?8195)

Source:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10736
You don't know how happy it makes me to hear that there is a z80 in there. ;D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on November 12, 2012, 02:44:45 am
that is pretty awesome :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 12, 2012, 03:55:48 am
Here's something bad to consider: as long as they're completely reworking the ASIC, they might as well remove the ability to unlock the boot code. No doubt, with great color comes great restrictions on programmer freedom. But that's why we have people like BrandonW. We are firing up our oscilloscopes! We are reading our disassemblers! Native code! will! be! ours!

Humm, just to know, what would the point of downgrading be, if the modified 2.55MP is the only one availalble for this model anyway ? (since it has to handle the new hardware etc.)

But I still think it'll actually turn out to be an Nspire in disguise.
I have speicifically asked that, and they said they actually considered that at first, but they didn't go that way.
As I've been told, you'll be able to see that when you open it :P
Anyway, it's a real z80 :)

I don't know about RAM/ROM or anything else very technical, I'll see if I can get these kind of details.
But anyway, everything should be known by mid-january.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 12, 2012, 04:41:05 am
As I've been told, you'll be able to see that when you open it :P
Not that I don't trust you, but I want to point out that you can't see a real Z80 inside the current TI-83+ series calculators. All three models still in production (and the TI-83+SE) have the Z80 hidden inside an ASIC. You'd have to desolder the ASIC, de-encapsulate the chip, and take a micrograph to prove there's an actual Z80 inside. (I've tried de-encapsulating chips. It's very difficult. Even 30 molar sulfuric acid can't make a dent in the packaging unless heated to near boiling point.)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 12, 2012, 05:11:44 am
Here's something bad to consider: as long as they're completely reworking the ASIC, they might as well remove the ability to unlock the boot code. No doubt, with great color comes great restrictions on programmer freedom. But that's why we have people like BrandonW. We are firing up our oscilloscopes! We are reading our disassemblers! Native code! will! be! ours!

Humm, just to know, what would the point of downgrading be, if the modified 2.55MP is the only one availalble for this model anyway ? (since it has to handle the new hardware etc.)

But I still think it'll actually turn out to be an Nspire in disguise.
I have speicifically asked that, and they said they actually considered that at first, but they didn't go that way.
As I've been told, you'll be able to see that when you open it :P
Anyway, it's a real z80 :)

I don't know about RAM/ROM or anything else very technical, I'll see if I can get these kind of details.
But anyway, everything should be known by mid-january.
Thanks for the clarification. And yeah as DrDnar said the processor is inside the ASIC. Glad to hear that the calc will have a Z80, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 12, 2012, 06:02:39 am
Well, yes, I know it's an ASIC, like here :
(http://datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-83PlusFR_ASIC.jpg)

But I've been told it's the same series of processor as the other 84+, meaning z80, and not an ARM inside the ASIC.
I'd have like to know the frequency too, but that may be coming later (maybe)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 12, 2012, 03:47:09 pm
I'm curious about the LCD.  Is it supposed to use a color palette or individually-controlled RGB pixels?  I'm a little skeptical that you could get good performance either way - and I'm even more skeptical that TI could pull it off (these are the same people who brought us MathPrint.)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 12, 2012, 04:06:40 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same LCD as in the TI-Nspire CX models, but if they plan to offer a cheaper calc, I wouldn't be surprised if they chose a crappier LCD instead. In any case I hope they don't use one with lots of motion blur (although that would at least keep grayscale intact if the calculator has backward compatibility with TI-84+ ASM programs). Imagine playing ASM games with a screen like this (http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6671.0;attach=6260;image) (I know some cheap MP3 players use such screens). If doing so doesn't reduce their costs signifiantly, they might still do it anyway just to tempt people into getting the more expensive TI-Nspire CX or TI-Nspire CX CAS instead :P.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 12, 2012, 04:18:31 pm
I'm curious about the LCD.  Is it supposed to use a color palette or individually-controlled RGB pixels? 
We don't know. We probably won't know until an assembly-savvy person gets one and starts dumping code.

I'm a little skeptical that you could get good performance either way
I agree that the vintage Z80 design couldn't provide good graphical performance, but I believe that upping the clock rate and rewriting some of their worst-performing code could provide adequate graphing performance, as in it would take less than ten seconds to graph y=mx+b. We're speculating that an eZ80 could easily provide the performance.

I'm a little skeptical that you could get good performance either way - and I'm even more skeptical that TI could pull it off (these are the same people who brought us MathPrint.)
An eZ80 would easily let them use C, which really makes it more likely they'll be able to implement good functionality, since C is much less specialized that than Z80 assembly. Although, in the end, it'll probably end up being as slow as the original software.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: willrandship on November 12, 2012, 06:29:40 pm
@DJ_O I bet it's the CX screen. They would save more money by using the same one everywhere, thanks to bulk pricing.

An RGB color pallete (ala SNES w/ 256 chosen color values) would help the performance vastly, and that would be something implemented into the LCD driver, possibly along with a compatibility mode for the old 84+ (maybe via the bluescale-mode activation routine? :P or maybe they emulate that too, LCD destruction and all)

I wonder how fancy the new display driver will have to be to compensate for TI using such a crappy, ancient architecture keeping compatibility.

I'm still hoping that it's ARM. Hoping.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: mlytle0 on November 12, 2012, 09:49:38 pm
Regarding the speed of this new Z80 calculator, Just wanted to mention that the eZ80, and other potential implementations of this old instruction set don't have to rely on clock speed alone....Some instructions on newer Z80 clones execute the same code in many fewer clock cycles than the original, giving effective comparison speeds well above what simple clock speed multiples would give you.

Assuming that TI is trying to at least competitively match the Prizm, it will have to bench roughly 3 times faster than the current 15 Mhz TI-84.   I have a TI-89, and I can tell you that the Prizm I recently bought is easily 4-6 times as fast as the '89 (in Basic, anyway).  That is what TI has to shoot for....and that should be within reach with the newer Z80 chips.  Available user memory will probably go up as well, well past the 24K currently offered...
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: squidgetx on November 12, 2012, 10:04:31 pm
^Yeah, I think the 50MHz ez80 is comparable to a 200MHz z80 chip.
Personally I'm not too sure that it'll be an ez80...doesn't TI not have the license for ez80s? I guess we'll have to wait and see...
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: cooliojazz on November 12, 2012, 10:26:55 pm
I'm pretty sure everyone is just throwing around the eZ80 cause i jokingly said it would be awesome if it had one ;P  Seriously, there's like literally no reason for them to put it in, haha (From TI's viewpoint)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 13, 2012, 12:33:46 am
I'm pretty sure everyone is just throwing around the eZ80 cause i jokingly said it would be awesome if it had one ;P  Seriously, there's like literally no reason for them to put it in, haha (From TI's viewpoint)
Except maybe using that as an excuse to jack up the price :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 13, 2012, 02:08:03 pm
TI gave me an image :)

(http://i.imgur.com/2x4Mo.png)

(I'll leave the watermark/shadow for now, later will release it "raw", if anyone is interested (for emulators :D)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 13, 2012, 02:15:12 pm
I hope you don't mind if I add it to the news :P
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 13, 2012, 02:15:28 pm
go ahead lol

Anyway, I should get more photos (in HD) in january :)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 13, 2012, 02:21:21 pm
Cool to hear. I added it although I probably won't post a news news just for the pic. I might wait until there are more infos to post (or someone else posts more info)

I like how the fonts still seems close to the originals. I hope they're not that blurry, though. Also I'M disappointed that the ON and ENTER keys are still not aligned properly with the rest. :(
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 13, 2012, 02:22:16 pm
Cool to hear. I added it although I probably won't post a news news just for the pic. I might wait until there are more infos to post (or someone else posts more info)
Excatly what I will do myself on tiplanet
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 13, 2012, 03:27:50 pm
What I wonder is why they didn't go with the TI-84 Pocket.Fr design, since they seemed to be moving towards that? The current look is very nice, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 14, 2012, 10:43:16 am
That mockup image was created in Adobe Illustrator. It's not blurry, it's anti-aliased.

Anyway, this might get taken down, but here's an SVG similar to the above image, and a high-res PNG render of it. The file was extracted from the official TI-30X emulator TI sells to teachers. I'd post the whole .jar file (renamed to .zip so you can explore it), but the attachment limit is 4 MB and the .jar file is 9 MB.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 14, 2012, 10:44:49 am
Well, a teacher would have to leak the 84c teacher software in order for us to extract the .svg :D
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 14, 2012, 10:46:36 am
Or we do what TI did and edit the colors a bit and move some text around.

The real WTF here is that TI included the TI-84+ series skins in the TI-30X emulator.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 14, 2012, 10:49:19 am
please scale that image down, it freezes my computer O.o
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 14, 2012, 11:02:31 am
Fixed.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on November 14, 2012, 11:04:34 am
Thanks, it's a lot better now.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Eeems on November 14, 2012, 11:05:38 am
I wonder if they are planning on expanding the TI-30X emulator to include the 83/84 series. Why they would do that when ZDS already has a 83/84 series emulator, I don't know.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on November 14, 2012, 11:06:31 am
What's ZDS again ?

(edit : meh, nevermind : http://epsstore.ti.com/OA_HTML/csksxvm.jsp?nSetId=94259)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 05:36:48 pm
Wait I didn't know ZDS even had an emulator???

Also something scary: Techpoweredmath specifies that the suggested price, although not done deal yet, will be $150 in United States. The current TI-84+ costs $110 and the TI-84+SE costs $130. Both the TI-Nspire Touchpad and CAS Touchpad costs $150 and the CX models $160.

I seriously hope that is not true, because if they keep the Nspire CX regular around and the final 84+CSE has 22 KB of RAM and 3 MB of archive with a 15 MHz processor, that's not a $10 price difference that's gonna convince people to get a much weaker model over the CX. Plus this would mean that the calc would cost $200 in Canada!
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DrDnar on November 14, 2012, 06:03:08 pm
ZDS doesn't. He's probably thinking of TI Flash Studio.


If a 1 MB flash chip costs $1.50 and a 2 MB flash chip costs $2.00, what is the price difference between a TI-84+ and a TI-84+SE, which are identical in every way except for the flash chips and different dye in the plastic case? (Seriously, the boot code unlock function is only there because the boot code needs to inform the ASIC whether it's in a TI-84+ or SE.)

So yes, by TI's logic, $150 is totally reasonable.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 06:06:59 pm
Ah ok, I guess that's why. I remember that the emulator bundled in TI Flash Debugger was far from accurate, though (even less than VTI). I remember that about half of the programs I would try in it would not run at all, plus there was no grayscale.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 14, 2012, 09:53:05 pm
It was somewhat popular for a while among assembly programmers because it supported Flash, while VTI didn't.  As the name suggests, it was designed for debugging Flash apps.  It doesn't hold a candle to any of the newer third-party emulators, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 10:10:50 pm
Actually I think it was also the first emulator to support the 83+SE calcs until 2007. >.<
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 14, 2012, 10:23:59 pm
You're talking to the guy who released the first free software 83+ SE emulator, in 2004.  :P

(I don't remember when SE support was added to the Flash Debugger, though.  And there was also an unfinished version of VTI that supported the SE and had some limited Flash support.)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 11:32:33 pm
Oh wait I totally forgot about TilEm. Wasn't it extremely buggy in 2004, though? D: (and before 2004, it was Linux-only)

As for FD, I think SE support was added somewhere in 2002. I remember the copy I had on my TI-CD only had 83+ support and maybe 73, then in 2002 I downloaded a new version which added SE support, but it ran at the same speed as 83+. As for the finished VTI version I could run entire games that needed the archive such as Reuben Quest, along with APPs, but in order to send non-APP files to the emulator you needed to use the ROM dumper that came with VTI, which was incredibly sensitive (for example, if you typed a character in notepad while the ROM dump was in progress and it caused a nanosecond of lag, then your ROM dump became corrupted) and took decades to complete. Doing so included the programs in the ROM (unless they were in RAM), so you could run them. I could never get SE support to work in that emu, though.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: chickendude on November 15, 2012, 01:20:40 am
But now TilEm2 is awesome and it's all i ever use anymore ;) The real question though is when will the first 84+C emulator come out?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Eeems on November 15, 2012, 11:12:36 am
Quote
ZDS doesn't. He's probably thinking of TI Flash Studio.
You are right, thanks. I didn't think it was zds, but I remembered seeing something from TI that had an emulator and was a dev enviroment.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on December 08, 2012, 11:30:10 am
Hi,

TI gave me some new, very HQ images :

On the gallery page, click on the image itself to open the very high quality image ;)

(http://i.imgur.com/C4Xmf.png) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/album.php?album_id=144)

And. .. we can see there are even [at least] pink and blue-colored 84+CSE :)
(http://i.imgur.com/m5QDR.png) (http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=144&image_id=1693&view=no_count)

Source : http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10917 (http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10917)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on December 08, 2012, 12:58:36 pm
wow, this is pretty epic! And how come ti just gives you such images? /me is just interested about contanct stuff
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Darl181 on December 09, 2012, 03:48:23 am
There's some sort of contract with some staff at TI-Planet iirc.
Also aren't those the snap-on faceplates from the non-color 84s?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on December 09, 2012, 03:57:42 am
Those look very nice. :)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on December 09, 2012, 05:40:08 am
wow, this is pretty epic! And how come ti just gives you such images? /me is just interested about contanct stuff
There's some sort of contract with some staff at TI-Planet iirc.

TI-Planet doesn't have any contract with TI, but some admins (including me) do. Even though it has nothing to do with z80 (but Nspire Scripting), it still makes us create contacts / trust relations with TI ;)


Also, yes, it looks like it's the same as the non-color 84+ faceplates :)
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 04, 2013, 03:00:43 am
Regarding the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition that Vijfhoek got to test in class (around the time the Cemetech guy mentionned in the first post did):

Quote from: OmnomIRC
[02:35:20]   Vijfhoek   I went to the Shift+Plus->About iirc
[02:35:28]   Vijfhoek   and there wasn't any OS version

A few days ago, I also remember him saying that the calcs shown in Youtube vids (Critor and Phero) appeared to run faster than then one he tested.

It most likely ran a beta OS and/or it was a prototype.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Adriweb on March 04, 2013, 03:04:28 am
That still might be the case for our review models.
"Maybe" we can expect a few bugfixes for the release then ?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 04, 2013, 03:05:37 am
Didn't yours and Kerm's have OS 4.0? ???
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: aeTIos on March 05, 2013, 07:12:07 am
wait what? no os 3.0?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Lionel Debroux on March 05, 2013, 07:57:43 am
Yup, no OS 3.0. Kerm's calculator and critor's calculator have OS 4.0, and certainly, Phero's one has it as well.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on March 05, 2013, 09:45:49 pm
Maybe a never-released z80 calculator we never heard about?
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 05, 2013, 11:45:44 pm
It was probably the OS 3.0 in question or some sort of 2.57MP OS, but they didn't put any number.

This reminds me a bit of TI-84 Plus OS 0.46
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on March 06, 2013, 08:52:18 pm
What, the 84 had a OS 0.x?
That is interesting, you are doing some very wired and non-logical stuff TI
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: blue_bear_94 on March 06, 2013, 11:41:34 pm
What, the 84 had a OS 0.x?
That is interesting, you are doing some very wired and non-logical stuff TI

Just 0.46, which had some test stuff with USB printing. Apparently, it didn't work well, so TI scrapped it.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 07, 2013, 01:30:50 am
Some info about 0.46 can be found at http://brandonw.net/calculators/print/

In WabbitEmu, what happens when loading it is the RAM Cleared screen slowly appearing (really slow, lol) then it freezes there.
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: Sorunome on March 07, 2013, 07:59:38 pm
Wow, that sounds interesting, printing from a calculator O.o
Title: Re: A new z80 calc... in color?
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 08, 2013, 12:18:06 am
Yeah I remember that the TI-82 had a PrintScreen command that could print the screen content via the parralel port for printers or something. It was probably removed since nobody would use such outdated technique.