Print Page - Casio-Scene shuts down

Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 01:53:18 pm

Title: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 01:53:18 pm

In April, United-TI was shutting down and its content was integrated into the Cemetech website as a read-only archive to ensure that nothing is lost. On the Casio side of things, it became clear that CasioKingdom, abandoned by its new admins since 2009, would eventually disappear as well, as the site got invaded with spam and everything broke to the point where no more file were available and logging in was no longer possible. As an attempt to preserve that long-running community with plenty of history, the CasioKingdom salvage project was started. Helder7 eventually opened Casio-Scene (http://www.casio-scene.com), which included most CasioKingdom (http://wayback.archive.org/web/20100301000000*/http://www.casiokingdom.org) downloads that could be saved in time and eventually forum posts from 2003 to 2009.

The site became quite active by Casio-only site standards, when suddenly, two weeks ago, it became inaccessible. In addition to that, on Planète-Casio, the affiliate link was removed, indicating that this might not be a site downtime, but a possible shut down. Today, a Cemetech post (http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8040) announced that the site had to be shut down due to a legal dispute with the formerly departed CasioKingdom admin (who had stopped maintaining and updating the PHPNuke website in 2009, immediately after purchasing it from Sean Tan, the founder).

It is unknown about what will happen to the files and posts, as the CasioKingdom version of them were originally abandoned, so that stuff might very well be gone forever now. As said in the Cemetech thread, however, you can still contact Helder7 if you need specific files released on Casio-Scene.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 28, 2012, 02:32:19 pm

That's sad :(

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on July 28, 2012, 03:14:37 pm

Indeed, the behaviour of the Casio-Kingdom trouble-maker(s) is sad, silly and disrespectful, to say the least. It definitely deserves strong criticism.

People in their right mind should be grateful that others pick up their slack, salvage their work and even build on it... It's not fair for them to attack later. But maybe they have too much ego, too little consideration for the community's sake, or something like that, to behave reasonably and constructively ? Anyhow, that's not the way to improve their reputation, usefulness and number of visits...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: totoyo on July 28, 2012, 04:13:28 pm

I have indeed retired the affiliate link on Planet-Casio, but Helder7 have always my support.
I find this behavior sad and Casio-Scene was hope of a new dynamic community.

We try to recover the casio-scene wiki and some important program.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on July 28, 2012, 04:36:22 pm

Helder7 has my support too.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 04:36:54 pm

Well, to be honest it's kinda a gray area when creating a new site involves taking content from another, and in this case, it is not your very own content like in TI-Planet case (where practically every 2008-11 news and archive uploads are from Critor/Levak/Adriweb), but IMHO that stuff was part of the community history, and the original admin was just letting it die. In fact I wonder if the domain name was even renewed at all when Casio-Scene started. Hadn't Casio-Scene started, maybe today CasioKingdom domain name would redirect to a farm site.

Also the CK salvage idea was originally a community project. A bunch of people wanted the files and ability to post back. You could see it by seeing many old members coming back.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on July 28, 2012, 05:17:19 pm

Did you notice the new agressive and useless CasioKingdom homepage message ?
http://casiokingdom.org/

(http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/23/13/53/ck10.png) (http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/23/13/53/ck10.png)

Sadly, the admin is trying to turn the Casio community against itself with his last paragraph...
Reminds me of someone else in the TI community.

I don't think that Helder7 has much to fear.

The 1st thing you have to do if you want to take legal actions is to shut up and avoid posting slandering content publicly.

And I don't see why he would have the right to "bring this as***** to justice for stealing your data and passwords".
Seems he's not the most affected person or does not have enough proofs/facts...

I don't see the point in such an agressive message... would be so easy to ask Helder7 for a full backup and go on with his site...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 28, 2012, 05:46:54 pm

Okay, now he's just being a stupid jerk that don't even understand why his site would be cloned in the first place.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 06:24:59 pm

Yeah actually the files in the archives aren't even his files, same for the forum posts (Did he even post one message on CK before? Last thing I recall: He bought the site from Sean Tan, then vanished, making money from Adsense). Granted, maybe now he owns Sean Tan's posts since he was the original founder, but that's a gray area. I'm pretty sure that even if legal actions were taken, Helder7 could still get away with it by deleting any site/calc contribution from Matt then re-open Casio-Scene.

When TI-Planet started, all messages, tutorials and files from mic were deleted, while on TI-BANK, the same was done with Critor, Adriweb, Lionel and Levak's. On top of that TI-BANK didn't even want to retain the original 110000-posts database anyway. Most people are glad that someone stepped up to bring them back online for use.

It's not like if, for example, you hacked Omnimaga or Cemetech account to redirect them to Casiotech, Casiomni or whatever, or if you signed up only to mass-invite everyone to your own site. CasioKingdom was DEAD, inoperational and nobody could even download anything, and the admin was not willing to do anything about it.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on July 28, 2012, 06:56:43 pm

Hello, thanks for the big support by planet casio members and also by you, critor.

this message in site is very mild compared to the emails that he sent me,...
I dont want talk more about of this in forums,.. He "take screenshots" of my posts :S (screenshots isnt valid as proof in my country)

I offered to him (my last offer) the CS full backup (i and members spend many hours with the site, projects (at least the site keep open)... For exemple, for the design i spend 3/4 weeks, for the wiki, maybe 3/4 weeks only to dev/organize it with the big help of the ziqumu), + domain, he refused...he only want money

In last months we have +/- 30 good add-ins released, ( in last 2 years only 1or 2 is released by international community), a great syscall documentation by simon for prizm/fx9860 and other releases.

The site is closed foreved, never open again, i dont want problems... Bye Calculators, for now ? With the end of casio-scene many other members cease work in Casio Calculators, like my web-friend and mod simon and others casio fx9860 devs.

Now, holidays... And i started working in other project for other type of devices, not calcs :D

Wiki is made by me and many planet casio members and will return soon.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 07:07:14 pm

Quote from: helder7 on July 28, 2012, 06:56:43 pm

(screenshots isnt valid as proof in my country)

Especially considering Photoshop exists, someone could indeed make something up with fake pictures. Although for the above screenshot by critor, we can still see it by ourselves online as even bigger proof, while the guy in question is alone.

And his attitude despite you offering a backup shows that he never actually cared about the calculator community. He only bought the site to make money from it.

I hope you don't stop calc stuff, though, but I noticed some people like Cfxm wants to leave other sites, which isn't very good for the Casio community. Of course there's here, Cemetech or Casiocalc, but Omni/Cemetech isn't the same considering it's mostly oriented towards TI, while some people had troubles on Casiocalc in the past. Now what sucks is that even if you kept Casio-Scene offline, I'm pretty sure the guy who runs CK will never put CK back online either.

I wonder if a petition could actually be signed or something else to convince him to get his act together and stop thinking about only money? But again, I'm sure the guy doesn't even own a calculator and never did. Maybe he owns hundreds of dead sites and all he does is make money from them.

I'm glad the Wiki will return, though. Hopefully it's possible to retreve the files one day. Almost all the Casio community disappeared in 2005 when Earthforge closed, now this.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on July 28, 2012, 07:08:17 pm

Quote from: helder7 on July 28, 2012, 06:56:43 pm

this message in site is very mild compared to the emails that he sent me,...
I dont want talk more about of this in forums,.. He "take screenshots" of my posts :S (screenshots isnt valid as proof in my country)

I offered to him (my last offer) the CS full backup (i and members spend many hours with the site, projects (at least the site keep open)... For exemple, for the design i spend 3/4 weeks, for the wiki, maybe 3/4 weeks only to dev/organize it with the big help of the ziqumu), + domain, he refused...he only want money

So he only figured out the site was cloned when he noticed he didn't receive the ads money?
Pathetic...

And btw, in a legal action for something so complicated (a site with content which he does not own), he's going to pay much more than what he *might* be able to win, and that could be nothing.

He probably has never dealt with legal actions before and hasn't even seen a lawyer yet.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 07:17:35 pm

True, also I wonder if there are many cases where someone won a legal battle over the Internet? Money is involved, but, for such small amount of money, is it even worth it for him to fight? Also, a few years ago, I heard that ticalc.org used their ad revenues from 2007 to 2009 to pay themselves a couple of beers when they met IRL in Seattle. That's with over 200 millions of page hits during that period. If all ticalc.org could afford with ad revenues from such a visited site is a bunch of beer, imagine how much lower it must have been for a Casio site that wasn't even that active to begin with.

EDIT: Critor by the way, one concern I have is if free legal aid is available from his country's government. In Quebec, if you earn under a certain amount of revenues per year (I think it's under $17000), you are eligible for free lawyer services. If such thing exists in his country or state, then all he might have to pay is what he will win, if anything.

EDIT 2: actually it appears much lower. If the guy is in business to make money from parked domain names and sites (could they be called undead sites?), maybe he isn't even eligible if it's similar in his country. Here to be eligible it's http://www.csj.qc.ca/SiteComm/W2007English/Main_En_v3.asp

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 28, 2012, 07:28:35 pm

Guys, don't let that Matt guy destroy the Casio community by only thinking of the person that is himself. If I was you, I won't give up to him, this case is pretty similar to the TI-Bank vs. TI-Planet case, I bet the outcome will be similar.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 07:38:42 pm

Yeah true. Technically, Helder should be able to keep Casio-Scene online fine if he wanted to, just without any contribution by the original admin or owner.

Hopefully people don't quit Casio programming because of that. But I guess it's their choice.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: alberthrocks on July 28, 2012, 08:18:34 pm

He's afraid of the legal issues... except if this guy were to sue, he would be kicked out of the court, and fined heavily for wasting the judicial system's time. Looking for a lawyer? No sane lawyer would take his case.

Helder7, don't give in to this guy! He has no standing in the legal system, and if there's any legal threats, we can support you. :)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on July 28, 2012, 08:34:30 pm

Quote from: DJ_O on July 28, 2012, 07:38:42 pm

Yeah true. Technically, Helder should be able to keep Casio-Scene online fine if he wanted to, just without any contribution by the original admin or owner.

No he claim rights over imported posts (made by other persons), imported users, imported pms and files. He also say that casio kingdom is a trademark.

He have 0 posts, 0 accounts, 0pms and 0 files in CS.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 08:41:46 pm

He might be right for the CasioKingdom name, along with the site CSS, images (except any screenshot not created by the admins), source code, but he has no legal rights over the rest.

When you sign up on a forum, there's a notice stating that the admins do not own your posts and they're not responsible for them. On Omni it says all files are properties of their respective owners and I'm pretty sure it's the case with any site. Otherwise, if he claims the rights of the files in the archives, then he would have been required to e-mail each author one by one, requesting permission to acquire the rights. I'm not sure those authors would have liked that.

Basically, he can't do anything because you didn't re-use any of the site code, images, CSS, PHP, tag name, slogan. He can call you names, threaten to sue you (or even try), but it will not work I'm sure.

Regardless of what happens, good luck.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on July 28, 2012, 09:43:47 pm

Quote from: helder7 on July 28, 2012, 08:34:30 pm

He also say that casio kingdom is a trademark.

Which means that of course he registered it, didn't he ? :P

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 28, 2012, 11:56:21 pm

Well, he purchased the domain name and the website, which means he owns the Casio Kingdom name, the casiokingdom.org domain name and, as long as he pays the hosting bill or server connection, his Casiokingdom hosting account.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on July 29, 2012, 01:19:18 am

OMG. The behaviour of that person is way beyond jerky and retarded... and we need to act.

helder7, you have our support, and the support of basically everyone in this community. An incompetent like the attacker you're facing shouldn't be able to deter hard-working people from helping the community !

Cross-posted to TI-Planet: http://ti-pla.net/t10172

BTW: is there someone (besides matt @ matpac.co.uk ) holding a grudge against Casio-Scene ?

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 29, 2012, 03:50:33 am

I doubt it. There are some people from UCF that didn't like CK much and some people from CK that didn't like UCF much, but I seriously doubt those people would do anything against any of the site. It was mostly a small group of people that were not happy with how one site or the other was moderated and there were some talks in each other's back, and most of those people are gone since years ago anyway. Matt did not even own the site back then too.

After some Google searches, it looks like the guy buys domain names and possibly websites, to finally sell some domain names he owns. https://twitter.com/matpac And here's his website, listing dozens and dozens of websites http://www.matpac.co.uk/

So basically, he's only in to make money off Casiokingdom and the many other sites he own.

When I gave away Omnimaga one year ago, I imposed one condition on the new ownership, which was to not let the site die. Never I would have given the site away to a random nobody somewhere, not knowing what he plans to do with the site, and especially not selling it, in case it falls under the hands of a businessman who don't give a shit about the site content and only wants to make money from potential ad revenues. I guess maybe Sean Tan didn't realize or probably didn't really mind what happen to the site in long terms, having moved on in life.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: nikitouzz on July 29, 2012, 06:59:55 am

....

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 29, 2012, 07:42:15 am

This really is a shame. I hope that members of the Casio community are not detered by this and continue contributing to the Casio programming scene. There are other outlets for projects to be seen and a new discussion forum could easily replace the old one.
*Edit* If they guy makes money buying and selling domains/websites, I see why he would be upset. A domain's value is based on many things, including how well search engines rank them. If a copy was detracting from traffic of the original, that it would be an issue.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on July 29, 2012, 08:36:27 am

Quote

I hope that members of the Casio community are not deterred by this and continue contributing to the Casio programming scene

They are already deterred, sadly.

Redirecting to a new site without informing the owner of CK wasn't a smart thing to do. But it was a good thing for the community of users and programmers.

Quote

A domain's value is based on many things, including how well search engines rank them.

At the moment, the insults on the site are not going to improve his ranking, and the rest of the obnoxious behaviour has already destroyed the reputation of the CK owner in the minds of dozens of persons (after the reputation of CK itself was destroyed by the site not working right for more than one year). Nothing good, for the CK owner, can come from his behaviour.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on July 29, 2012, 08:56:12 am

Quote from: critor on July 28, 2012, 09:43:47 pm

Which means that of course he registered it, didn't he ? :P

Quote by him:

"Regarding Casio Kingdom, this is a trademark. It has unregistered trademark protection and your email here further signifies your unwillingness to respect European/international intellectual property."

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on July 29, 2012, 09:37:58 am

Quote from: helder7 on July 29, 2012, 08:56:12 am

Quote from: critor on July 28, 2012, 09:43:47 pm

Which means that of course he registered it, didn't he ? :P
Quote by him:

"Regarding Casio Kingdom, this is a trademark. It has unregistered trademark protection and your email here further signifies your unwillingness to respect European/international intellectual property."

And of course, you can use the 'Casio' word in your own trademark. :P
Pathetic again...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 29, 2012, 10:58:05 am

Quote from: critor on July 29, 2012, 09:37:58 am

Quote from: helder7 on July 29, 2012, 08:56:12 am
Quote from: critor on July 28, 2012, 09:43:47 pm

Which means that of course he registered it, didn't he ? :P
Quote by him:

"Regarding Casio Kingdom, this is a trademark. It has unregistered trademark protection and your email here further signifies your unwillingness to respect European/international intellectual property."

And of course, you can use the 'Casio' word in your own trademark. :P
Pathetic again...

Well, TI-News got a cease and desist letter for using TI in their URL once. :P (although a TI community petition got them to change their mind).

I guess the guy he is right in the way that it would be totally wrong if, for example, you started a calculator website called Omnimaga using the www.omnimaga.com URL, even though there's already an existing one. I'm not too sure Netham45, Eeems, Shmibs or other staff would appreciate that, especially considering this happened before with a member and everyone complained. But I don't know why the guy is complaining about helder using casiokingdom "trademark" when he changed the site name completely...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: alberthrocks on July 29, 2012, 11:59:30 pm

helder7, we're kinda confused as to what happened with the transfer and stuff... so could you please explain exactly how you made the new website?

Depending on what you say, you may be totally clean and clear. :) (Which I'm pretty sure you are, but I just want to double check.)

(If you are not comfortable talking in public, we can take it to PM, like before.)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Netham45 on July 30, 2012, 12:18:33 am

Quote from: helder7 on July 29, 2012, 08:56:12 am

Quote from: critor on July 28, 2012, 09:43:47 pm

Which means that of course he registered it, didn't he ? :P
Quote by him:

"Regarding Casio Kingdom, this is a trademark. It has unregistered trademark protection and your email here further signifies your unwillingness to respect European/international intellectual property."

Sounds like he wants to get back in and wants to weasel his way out of having any competition to me. Also, lol at 'trademarking' a name that has another companies trademark as a key component.

Coming soon: Microsoft Programming! -- It's cool, I have a trademark on the name.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 30, 2012, 01:57:27 am

That reminds me, if for example that guy became extremely notable and popular in the world of web design, projects and domain name purchase, or if he had a company name and he did get popular enough to get mentionned on Wikipedia and review sites, could there be a controversy/criticism section stating his behaviour in the professional and business world?

Imagine if you receive a C&D letter from a company like TI and it's like

Spoiler For Fake, NSFW Cease and Desist letter from TI, used as example of unprofessional behaviour:

Well... maybe without the anon part in the signature, but you get the idea :crazy:

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Adriweb on July 30, 2012, 03:05:58 am

Quote from: DJ_O on July 30, 2012, 01:57:27 am

OUR INTELLECTUAL POOPRETTY!

lolz pooprety :D

+1 your post :P

But also, yeah, good point

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Jonius7 on July 30, 2012, 04:44:50 am

I am saddened and shocked overall at such the quick closure of Casio-scene after Casio-Kingdom was transferred over. It was a nice surprise to see my 4year old account on Casio Kingdom restored (one of my oldest forum accounts!!!).
Sean Tan made some great games for the Casio CFX-9850 series (including Star Wars and Kingdom), back when I was active in playing Casio calculator games. However not much has been heard from him in the last few years. Looks like he didn't like the past coming back or something.

EDIT: Just noticed the message at CasioKingdom. The message clearly refers to the actions of Helder7, however I can't help but feel that the website had been hacked itself to display that message as [email protected] doesn't seem like an email from Sean Tan. Could be one of the admins but I won't guess like that.

Spoiler For Message at casiokingdom.org:

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 30, 2012, 07:24:03 am

@DJ_O: LMAO! You do make a valid point thought. Even if he wanted the site taken down there are much better ways to go about it than threatening, bullying, and name calling. Especially since Helder was willing to and did comply asap. I really makes you wonder what's wrong with people... ???

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 30, 2012, 09:07:14 am

That reminds me, are his games even on UCF archives??? O.O Because if they're only in CK archives, then that sucks even more, since they were great classics. I think some are in Omni archives, but if I remember, there were only two available here (RPGs).

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on July 30, 2012, 10:04:34 am

some files in UCF is dead, and many is exclusive of the CK...

i do a "intensive" attempt to recover all dead files for cp (classpad.org) and afx (for exemple i recovered the ship8 emu in a unknown blog with wayback machine), i send many emails to file authors that have files dead and some devs send it to me files...

Ck have +/- 400/500 files, CS have 875 files

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 30, 2012, 04:20:21 pm

Did you have to take everything down from your computer that was from CasioKingdom?

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Eiyeron on July 30, 2012, 04:31:39 pm

Could I get all the files?
I came in the Casio universe after CK, I'm not implied in crisis.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: alberthrocks on July 30, 2012, 08:49:35 pm

helder7 requested that I don't reveal the contents of his PM, but basically, he's in the clear.
He has done nothing wrong, and there is no hacking involved.
Let's fight back! :D

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 30, 2012, 09:37:05 pm

Good news :)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 30, 2012, 10:14:14 pm

Haha DJ_O I got a good laugh here. But the worse is that you make a pretty good point here...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 02:02:38 am

What do you mean? ???

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on July 31, 2012, 02:08:49 am

The good laugh, and the valid point, are probably your reply #30, with the fake C&D letter :)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 31, 2012, 02:11:13 am

Yeah, in reference of reply #30.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 02:21:02 am

Oh ok lol. I was wondering since there were no quote in your post. D:

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: nikitouzz on July 31, 2012, 02:09:59 pm

i don't speak english...

je voudrais m'exprimer sur le sujets quand même....

ce qui se passe est horrible d'une part au niveau de la perte de plusieurs centaine de fichier/dossiers.... c'est inadmissible le comportement qu'a cette personne qui n'est même pas dans la communauté casio ou TI...

le comportement de cette personne est tel que beaucoup de programmeur sur casio ont arrêter la programmation ce qui est déplorable pour la communauté casio...

j’espère que sa va s'arranger au maximum que helder7 ( que je soutiens ) n'auras pas de problème et que si il veut de l'aide il peut nous demander j’espère aussi que les fichier pourrons être récupérer aussi...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 02:48:51 pm

No problem, actually for the others here's the english translation :)

Quote

What is happening now is horrible in the way that several hundreds of files and folders were lost... The behavior of this person who is not even involved in the Casio or TI community is unacceptable...

This person's behavior is such that many Casio programmers have quit programming, which is disappointing for the Casio community...

I hope that it will get resolved so at least Helder7 (who I support) doesn't have any problem and if he needs help he can ask us. I also hope that the files will be recoverable too...

Also welcome to the forums nikitouzz (bienvenue sur le forum :D )

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: nikitouzz on July 31, 2012, 02:54:25 pm

thank's Dj_O

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 31, 2012, 03:49:29 pm

@Nikitouzz: Welcome, we also have a french section <a href=http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=170.0>here.</a> If you want, you can also use google translate for english posts. It isn't perfect, but we can usually figure out what you mean.

Bienvenue, nous avons aussi une section française ici. Si vous le souhaitez, vous pouvez également utiliser Google Translate pour les postes anglais. Il n'est pas parfait, mais on peut généralement trouver ce que vous entendez.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: nikitouzz on July 31, 2012, 05:01:10 pm

No but I already know the site practically by heart I everything in daytime ^^ visits the site I begin any young few has to be known just a little in the French community of TI, I am already very active on TI-planet and I am moderating on espace-TI.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 31, 2012, 05:04:32 pm

Hey, you should post in Introduce yourself.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 31, 2012, 09:44:15 pm

Hm, I see. In short, Matt got his life pretty busy, leading him to not take care of CK as much as he wanted until he realized that site was more important than he thought, Helder, wanting to save the website, restarted the site over and didn't asked permission to (which I understand is pretty annoying to Matt) or just didn't contacted him to see what's up with the site (who would otherwise bring the site back up). Then it escalated into a bunch of hate mail and stuff like that, making both parties look like bad guys to each other.

I suggest to just start over and try to reach an agreement while respecting each other, probably to merge both copies of the site into Casio Kingdom (Matt would probably retain ownership) then do like nothing happened.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Netham45 on July 31, 2012, 09:53:06 pm

I'm not saying that what went on was right, but the fact that the site was hacked a fairly long time ago and you're just now getting to it shows a striking level of negligence and indifference towards the community.

Helder trying to revive the community and save the data is, in my opinion, morally sound, though the means of which he did it is not.

To be honest, I highly doubt that anyone will come back to Casio Kingdom after you essentially ignored it for three years, even through a significant security breach.

Also, in the calculator community (Well, at least in the TI one), you need to realize that most people don't see code and posts as 'owned' by the site, but by themselves and the community, so to most people neglecting the site is far worse than copying it.'

Pardon me if I'm missing something, I've only been aware that Casio Kingdom ever existed recently.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on July 31, 2012, 10:01:08 pm

Hey matt, thank You for You stop your "email war" ! Now is 02:56 AM in my country, im working hard in my new project (ps: youre the first external person to known about it :D ) i really need sleep, now...

But i will put my full response to You in some hours...

Wtf, You contacted the host? Lol... Fake, The site is hosted in a dedicated server property of one my friend...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 10:19:34 pm

Hi Matt, thank you for posting your side of views in the topic.

Regarding making money from a website or having hosting being paid by other people, I see nothing wrong with it if it involves placing ads on the site or selling products. In fact, Omnimaga, although not directly from the administration itself, has been selling music for 8 months now (although there are no ad yet). So far that generated at least $71.16, which is not even close to what it costs annually to host the website and purchase contest prizes. There also used to be a donation form, but it was removed.

The only problem is like what Netham45 said: In the TI and Casio calculator programming community, people are in a constant battle to keep it alive, and to prevent massive loss of useful information, people from both communities will be ready to do anything to save a website, a forum, a file database or group of tutorials. I do not agree with the way helder7 did it, if it involved accessing the domain name and website setup without having first gotten the login info from you, but in 2011, almost every file on Casiokingdom were 404'ing, nobody could register forum accounts anymore, and eventually, even post at all. By then, it was believed that the site was about to shut down entirely. Also, I recall people saying in 2010 or 2011 that you or former admins were contacted as an attempt to re-host the site or fix it, to no avail. So afterward, the CK salvage project was born, although nobody knew how the CK domain name was accessed.

For the most parts, most files in Casio-Scene archives were retrieved from the Wayback Machine, as they were no longer available on CasioKingdom due to PHPNuke bugs and security holes. About 400 extra files were added in 2012 on Casio-Scene, which were never uploaded on CK before. The forum database that Casio-Scene used dated back in Early 2009, before you bought the site. Helder7 most likely got it from one of the original CasioKingdom admins.

I guess the best thing would have been that Helder7 contacts you first to ask permission, then if no reply occurs within the next month or two, copy the site anyway per TI/Casio community mentality principes, although I guess he only thought about saving CK content at the time.

As for now, the idea I had in mind was that on www.casiokingdom.com, you simply replace CasioKingdom's copy of the site with Casio-Scene's, so that way you ensure you have a much more stable CMS than PHPNuke, and have Casio-Scene show a message saying that the site has moved back to CasioKingdom. Or of course the current Casiokingdom site could be converted from the 2011 version, then the 2012 Casio-Scene additions added. And of course add an anti-spam and put the ads back online. That way the community will be happy.

Also Netham45 Casiokingdom existed since 2003, but in 2006 the admin left, before returning to update his site into a full community. In 2009 he finally retired for real, selling the site to Matt, then fell into despair.

Also Helder7 he most likely ended up with your friend's ISP.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 31, 2012, 10:58:57 pm

Yeah, as a professionnal computer science technician, there was 2 points that sounded fishy in the claim of hacking the site to bring it back.

First, the complete database, including stuff normally hidden from the users such as passwords. It dated back from early 2009, which is before Matt bought the site. The legality of this is pretty much a gray area.
Secondly, how Helder7 got access to the CK domain name to point it to CS, then how Matt got it back. I had a theory Matt forgot to renew it, but it doesn't make sense. I would like to know how you did it.
Thirdly, Richard M. Stallman would kill you for using the word hacking like this. :P

Also, for the passwords, they are usually stored encrypted in a way they would be unencryptable without spending months of computer times on each one (see the MD5 or SHA1 algorithms), so you passwords are safe.

And the best would be that Matt would bring back his Casio-Kingdom copy from 2011, then merge the new data from Casio-Scene in.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 11:19:56 pm

I don't think there was lack of domain name renewal, else there would have been a brief period of time where CK would have stopped working completely or it would have been squatted.

Also juju, even if passwords are encrypted, if a website CMS is filled with security exploits, I wouldn't be surprised if someone could get access to files he's not supposed to have access to. While it probably won't give access to the hosting account, if the admins stored the passwords in their PM inbox in case they forget, then that can be accessed instead. Also, the original admins cannot have given away any password, as themselves lost access to the site after it was sold. You are probably not familiar with PHPNuke, as it is old and nobody use it anymore, but back in 2004-2006, it was very notable for its security exploits. Only PwsPhp was worse. On top of that, the board built-in PhPNuke uses PhpBB2, which, back in the days, also had a few security issues which left your site vulnerable if not updated.

Also even if they had no copy of the database beforehand to create Casio-Scene, you don't need access to a site database to copy its content: You just need a crawler converter (like we used to import the old Omnimaga posts into the new Omnimaga site) that is compatible with PHPNuke. If Casio-Scene didn't import PMs, that could have been a possible scenario. That's actually how the old TI-BANK posts were added to TI-Planet (although Mic's posts were all deleted, along with his files and account). In May 2011, Mic was about to shut his board down, so Jim Bauwens quickly wrote a script to copy the forum HTML on his server. The TI-BANK board was finally shut down for real 13 days later. So only 13 days of posts were finally lost.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: alberthrocks on July 31, 2012, 11:26:21 pm

matt:
I think it's perfectly fine if you have ads on the website, but ONLY IF YOU MAINTAIN IT. You're simply milking a website if you ditch it and still get money from it. If you're not maintaining it, OK, sell it for a cheap price or give it away to a trusted admin. They can foot the hosting bill. And besides, ad revenues from a dead site are kinda small.

Also, the Internet is not a legal fiesta. You can't punish anyone for "hacking", especially if it isn't really "hacking". Copyright laws hardly exist for the Internet. A legal case will almost immediately get dismissed. Besides, you guys also live in different countries... do you really expect magical cross country legal action, especially when the world is short on cash?

I understand that you are upset, but does that mean you should spam someone who you're not even sure is the culprit? Does that mean you can behave inappropriately on the internet? Does that mean you can toss cuss words in BIG CAPS on a home page?

You got those angry emails because of your actions. A good rule of thumb, both in the real world and the virtual world: if you want respect, give it. The reverse also applies: if you don't want respect, don't give it. You pretty much did the latter.

How about we start off fresh? You both apologize to each other (right here, in this topic), and then have a meaningful discussion about what happened. :)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 11:45:02 pm

By the way, does Google Adsense detect if click through ads are bots or not? Because if CK gets a lot of money from ad revenues with so few members visiting it, then that means that a lot of the revenues are generated by undetected spambots and web crawlers.

Omnimaga used to average at 900000 page hits per month, not counting external pages and sub-domains such as the ASM Unsquisher, old copies of the site and image folders. After the site was modded to almost completely eliminate spambots, the traffic dropped to 600000.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Juju on July 31, 2012, 11:50:04 pm

I think Google Adsense have a pretty nice detection of spambots, don't remember though. It would detect if someone clicked too much and other abnormal activities. I guess it would work if someone has a shitton of IPs in every range and would click with a different IP each time.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on July 31, 2012, 11:56:57 pm

Well in many cases, bots use proxies and will follow every site link once or twice at most, if I remember. That's unless a bot clicks the ads on every forum page, though.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Adriweb on August 01, 2012, 01:08:30 am

Quote from: DJ_O on July 31, 2012, 11:45:02 pm

By the way, does Google Adsense detect if click through ads are bots or not? Because if CK gets a lot of money from ad revenues with so few members visiting it, then that means that a lot of the revenues are generated by undetected spambots and web crawlers.

- Google AdSense does detect false clicks (probably by some IP background check and some other ways if possible)
- I don't believe bots will click anywhere else than what they're done for. An ad-clicking bot specially crafted to be smart enough not to be detected as non-human would be greatly done, IMHO, to be able to defeat Google's "security".
Google actually bans the AdSense account in case of 2-3 issues (which can happen fast, and even by mistake), so...

Quote from: DJ_O on July 31, 2012, 11:45:02 pm

Omnimaga used to average at 900000 page hits per month, not counting external pages and sub-domains such as the ASM Unsquisher, old copies of the site and image folders. After the site was modded to almost completely eliminate spambots, the traffic dropped to 600000.

That's a lot, still :o

Concerning this topic, I agree with Netham's post.
Good thing we also have matt's version of the story. Always good to have several point of views.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on August 01, 2012, 01:13:23 am

Thanks for coming here, Matt. It's not so easy to start attending places hostile to your actions, in order to explain yourself.

Others have already explained that Casio-Scene was created only because you severely neglected CK, for the purposes of salvaging, and then improving upon, the content. Your lack of action for so long has destroyed the reputation and usefulness of CK. Switching to a more proper CMS with fewer security holes (and reducing the risk for users of your neglect) was definitely a good thing to do, that's exactly what was done on TI-Planet as well.
And however you felt about CS / helder7, that white-on-black message with large characters, caps and insults was inacceptable. Especially since there was no intrusion involved, as far as we understood from what helder posted.

I'm not saying that redirecting CK to CS without notifying you (or so it seems) was a good thing to do in the moral sense, but it was a good thing for the community. Whether you like it or not, CS is the de-facto successor of CK, and your recent misbehaviour against CS has destroyed your reputation and harmed the community...

For the sake of the community, the new CS content needs to be available again, whatever the chosen solution (i.e. with you, by e.g. moving CS back to CK if that's deemed to be an acceptable tradeoff, or without you - people have done without you for a long time) ;)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: matt on August 01, 2012, 05:48:30 am

I've started to type up a response to a lot of the posts but there is a certain level of immaturity that is disgusting with several members here that's showing me I'm wasting my time. After this post I will no longer give time to those members.

It seems that some of you have such low self esteem, that you feel the need to argue with others to make improve how you feel. It's sad and I feel sorry for you - I hope that you can over come it. It really is shocking to see this level of immaturity among people who seem to be using their brains for some pretty cool stuff.

I will post my replies and continue a productive conversation over at CK when the site is up (and I'll post a note here when that's happened).

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: TIfanx1999 on August 01, 2012, 06:23:40 am

It is my hope that regardless of what happened between the original Casio-Kingdom being shut down and Casio-scene being created that some how, some way that the content is able to be restored. In communities like the TI and Casio hobbyist scenes the people are very close and we all have this common interest binding us together. It's nice to have a central place to discuss things and show off our works and to be able to have past works archived.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on August 01, 2012, 06:27:19 am

Quote from: matt on August 01, 2012, 05:48:30 am

I've started to type up a response to a lot of the posts but there is a certain level of immaturity that is disgusting with several members here that's showing me I'm wasting my time. After this post I will no longer give time to those members.

I think you got lots of respectful and comprehensive replies here after your post.
I can see allmost nothing wrong, shocking, agressive, disrespectful or immature in the latest posts.

Those people gave time to you and to the whole Casio community, so that things will end up for the best.

Once again, you disrespect people from the community.

The one being immature is the one being able to post a message with the level of a frustrated teenager:
(http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/23/13/53/ck10.png) (http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/23/13/53/ck10.png)

Remove this message to begin with before telling people how they should behave in life.

Slander is illegal - even if the content is right, you try to destroy someone's reputation: that's slander.

Forums administration requires lots of moral qualities.
Your home page message is agressive and insulting.

In your last post you've just shown us your true face again, not being able to deal with people who don't completely and blindly agree with you.
And you pretend to be an educator ? . . .

You can put the site up again, but I don't think that many people will care and are going to go on your CK forums after such misbehaviour, except to backup the content.
The english Casio community definately needs another website.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: matt on August 01, 2012, 08:50:39 am

I think that some of you have learning difficulties which is fine so let me make a few short posts.

1. No name is on the CK homepage right now - so how is that slander (full details will be published soon)
2. you say that slander is illegal even if it is right. But how does that make any sense? It isn't slander if it is true
3. I'm allowed to be angry if someone commits a crime and damages my site and breaks laws with data. A person who would do such a thing is an a-hole, a complete jerk. Plus someone who would leave traces all over the internet explaining his plan to commit a crime is a dumb a-hole. Let's go further... someone who then goes on to send the email newsletter to the admin, giving incriminating evidence of the site they have just cloned is really not the sharpest tool in the shed.
4. When CK is back up the people who defend a crime that is indefensible and the people who have severe self-esteem issues, to the point where they troll and whine and try to bring others down, simply aren't welcome.

Members who don't want to return to CK, don't. Why waste your time even talking about it. Those of you who would like to, you'll be welcome.

Those of you who have acted like jerks here have only accomplished one thing and that is to make me want to pursue the criminal actions even further until there is some resolution. If your strategy was to defend Helder, you have only created a more fierce opponent in me.

Au revoir mon petit pois.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: critor on August 01, 2012, 09:59:41 am

Quote from: matt on August 01, 2012, 08:50:39 am

4. When CK is back up the people who defend a crime that is indefensible and the people who have severe self-esteem issues, to the point where they troll and whine and try to bring others down, simply aren't welcome.

If you had really read previous posts, you would have seen that most of us in this topic including myself, think that your website must have been hacked (if even PM and passwords were recovered and a domain redirection was injected), and that this isn't right.

But on the other side, your behaviour is not right either.

A lawyer has to defend his client too. Does it mean that he approves and encourages what he has done?
Think about that.

Being legally the victim doesn't give you the right to misbehave.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: Lionel Debroux on August 01, 2012, 10:03:23 am

Quote

2. you say that slander is illegal even if it is right. But how does that make any sense? It isn't slander if it is true

Seriously, get a clue. The definition of slander has nothing to do with stating facts or lies...

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: helder7 on August 01, 2012, 10:16:35 am

Quote

If someone had emailed me and wanted to take over the site, partner up, share ideas then that would have been great. But that didn't happen.

First of all i tried contact you in January 1, 2012 at 6:57:11 PM EST (according to your screenshot to my email), currently i dont own the mail account that i used to contact you, i offered also to you 55 pounds (i know its a bit amount) for the site in this email, and i waited your reply during months, maybe for we do a partnership/negociate or something like it what ever happened.
I do not have facebook, but i used a facebook account of a friend to send to you a friend request, i think you refused the request (This is perfectly normal, do not accept strangers).

Some facts:
->CK was dead during years (i think since 2009) when you bought the site and developers stopped dev for casio calculators, due to spam robots, site bugs, etc...
->The idea of the operation CK salvage started in casiocalc forums maybe 1 year ago (or more) by flyingfisch and other community members with the objective of save files, because more and more, the site was more bugs, and began to lose files.
->In the end of March/early April downloads zone stopped work, i do a fight against time to get files descriptions saved from google cached pages, and i had recovered many files with wayback machine
->During the last 2/3 years the internacional casio fx9860 is dead (only launched 1 or 2 add-ins)

I started dev the casio-scene in Dezember 2011/January 2012, at the time this was a community project.

In the end of March/early April downloads zone stopped work, i do a fight against time to get files descriptions saved from google cached pages, and i had recovered many files with wayback machine. I also had recovered many other hundreds of files from other dead sources.

Theoretically, if i hacked the site as you claim and attack me, i got all content until 2012, im right, no?

now a quote by dj_o

Quote

I guess the best thing would have been that Helder7 contacts you first to ask permission, then if no reply occurs within the next month or two, copy the site anyway per TI/Casio community mentality principes, although I guess he only thought about saving CK content at the time.

i send to him a email in January and a facebook friend request, i waited for a reply at least, but was totally ignored.

You know how I got the old backup, however you never accepted, You continue to accuse me of HACKING

i recommend to you read this article in wikipedia, in order to become to know what is a hacker:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_%28computer_security%29

Additionally, the Internet is not a place where you can accuse people and disrespect, how well you feel like

Currently i dont have "hacking skills", im learning php, etc... im a begginer with web tecnologys.

About the redirection, i did not do any redirection, i think it was made by other person maybe in community, i dont know, but i advised people for do not use it:
http://community.casiocalc.org/topic/6740-casio-kingdom-becomes-casio-scene/

Quote

and his refusal to take the website down until I contacted his host. I will definitely consider posting more about what happened on Casio Kingdom, when I have fixed the website.

firstly the site is hosted in a dedicated server when you contacted me, maybe you only have contacted in max the isp. i put the site under mantainance i think in +/- 24 hours (without you asking), and site was completely removed in less than 48 hours after your contact.

however, I myself understand a bit your rage, and I proposed to you some ways for i and you resolve the problem, in the best way for you, for me and mainly the community, as some members already have proposed.

-I proposed to you a administration togheter, a partnership, you manage the site togheter with me, you put ads (i think the site is ad ready), and we use the old domain.
When you're busy, I can take care of the site. When I'm busy, you take care of the site. It would be interesting to a joint administration.
Perhaps in future we can organize a programming contest, and other "activitys" to keep the homebrew development community active. I think this will appeal to all.

-i also offered to you a full site backup + domain, with a modern cms , etc... (the site is accessible to members, is also good for community)

-if you want i can provide to you the domain casio-scene only, and you use it as you want to refer casio-scene devs to CK.

i want cooperate together with you, if you want, using dialogue, and finding the best solution for both.

now the casio-scene is a reference in calculator dev world, was due to my hard work and the community, and I think we could take advantage of it together.

I do not gain anything with this project, I hope to you an intelligent response, maybe a partnership?

If you do not accept dialogue i do a SHIFT+DELETE in the casio-scene backup that i have, and goodbye.

I apologize if I caused problems for you, I'm here to solve everything through dialogue.

If you want you can email me.

Best regards, Helder7.

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: linuxgeek96 on August 01, 2012, 10:19:19 am

for recovery, would the wayback machine be any help? http://web.archive.org/web/20110725141954/http://www.casiokingdom.org/
EDIT: Also here http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.casiokingdom.org/* (http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.casiokingdom.org/*)

Title: Re: Casio-Scene shuts down
Post by: TIfanx1999 on August 01, 2012, 10:58:48 am

I'm going to lock this topic for now as it is going nowhere. The news stands as it is. If the two involved parties wish to discuss it further I'd recommend using email. Thank you.

-Art