Omnimaga

Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: apcalc on June 14, 2011, 07:02:27 pm

Title: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: apcalc on June 14, 2011, 07:02:27 pm: Much like they did with the Nspire CX, Texas Instruments has taken the liberty of sending TI-BANK and critor a test of the TI-84 Pocket:

A short summary of the new calc is posted in the original thread (http://ourl.ca/9380/219234):

Quote
TI sent me a brand new TI-84 Pocket.fr.

Check the photos, tests and informations on TI-Bank:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1176

To be short:
- as expected, it's similar with the basic TI-84+
- no miracle: only 48Kb RAM like all recent TI-84+

You might have been right with the 2.71MP OS.
The calculator includes a new 1.03 Boot Code. Remember that on TI-z80 Flash, the Boot Code only deals with the OS installation...
So probably some bad news very soon...

Quote
With the new 1.03 Boot Code on the new TI-84 Pocket.fr (and probably soon on the newest TI-84+/84+SE):
- you cannot downgrade to any TI OS below 2.55MP
- you cannot install third party OSes anymore
- you cannot even install a patched 2.55MP OS
- the OS validation screen alone needs 6-7 minutes in the best case (no, it's not frozen)

It seems as if the new Boot Code 1.03 is a disastrous addition to the calculator. Much like with OS 2.1, the boot code blocks downgrading and third party Operating Systems on the TI-84. With the exception of the MP Operating Systems (which technically could be considered an "update"), TI has done little against the 84 community, making most of their attacks against the Nspire. This marks a new age, with a direct attack against TI-84 developers. The loss of ability to install any OS makes it impossible for users to downgrade to the more stable OS 2.43 and to install custom OSes, such as KnightOS.

Although this boot code can only be confirmed to exist on the TI-84 Pocket, it is possible that it will find its way on newly produced TI-84s, bringing disastrous results to the 84 development community.

OS 2.71 MP is not April Fools any more!

(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/pocket.png)

More information, good and bad, will be added here when available.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 14, 2011, 08:25:42 pm: Quote from: apcalc on June 14, 2011, 07:02:27 pm
It seems like the new boot code is a quite negative addition to the OS; at this point, tests performed by critor seem to indicate that downgrading is blocked! :(

Bah, really sucks, especially with all those problems that the MP OSes have brought us. It has OS 2.55MP, right?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info
Post by: apcalc on June 14, 2011, 08:30:14 pm: Quote from: Deep Thought on June 14, 2011, 08:25:42 pm
Quote from: apcalc on June 14, 2011, 07:02:27 pm
It seems like the new boot code is a quite negative addition to the OS; at this point, tests performed by critor seem to indicate that downgrading is blocked! :(

Bah, really sucks, especially with all those problems that the MP OSes have brought us. It has OS 2.55MP, right?

Yes, it has OS 2.55 MP. :(
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 14, 2011, 08:34:28 pm: Well, at least they didn't "upgrade" it into something unthinkable (http://ourl.ca/10053).
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info
Post by: critor on June 14, 2011, 10:14:17 pm: With the new 1.03 Boot Code on the new TI-84 Pocket.fr (and probably soon on the newest TI-84+/84+SE):
- you cannot downgrade to any TI OS below 2.55MP
- you cannot install third party OSes anymore
- you cannot even install a patched 2.55MP OS
- the OS validation screen alone needs 6-7 minutes in the best case (no, it's not frozen)

I've just released the info in a "non-agressive" way:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1177

But you are free to report things "differently" ;)
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info
Post by: Juju on June 14, 2011, 10:33:56 pm: What the hell.

1. Can you install 2.71MP?
2. You can't downgrade the Boot Code right?

Seems TI isn't as open as in the past anymore.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: critor on June 14, 2011, 10:40:31 pm: Quote from: juju2143 on June 14, 2011, 10:33:56 pm
What the hell.

1. Can you install 2.71MP?

2.71MP was a patched 2.55MP if I remember well. So it cannot be installed with the new 1.03 Boot Code.

Quote from: juju2143 on June 14, 2011, 10:33:56 pm
2. You can't downgrade the Boot Code right?

I suppose it is possible, but we'll have to go through several hardware hacks/mods, and it will be much harder than plugging a RS232 device on a TI-Nspire.

But on the other side, TI cannot upgrade your Boot Code either.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm: Darn this sucks, but are we sure there's no way to downgrade or install patched OSes?

-Are the RSA keys any different or something? Also does it blocks downgrades back to 2.55MP, should a new OS come out?
-Does the 2.55MP included still includes third-party apps compatibility and the Asm()/AsmComp()/Asmprgm commands?
-Does Output() runs at the same speed as on other calcs? ???
-Is it possible to install patches after installing the OS, such as Zstart? Or will the OS give an error on boot once it's modified?

I hope I did not give them ideas... O.O
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: Darl181 on June 14, 2011, 11:00:18 pm: Can 2.55 from a normal 84 be sent to the Pocket?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: critor on June 14, 2011, 11:04:09 pm: Quote from: Darl181 on June 14, 2011, 11:00:18 pm
Can 2.55 from a normal 84 be sent to the Pocket?

Yes. :)
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: ralphdspam on June 14, 2011, 11:10:41 pm: Is it still running at 15Mhz? Is the graphics card better? How is the screen?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: AngelFish on June 14, 2011, 11:11:18 pm: I'm pretty sure there's no graphics card in the pocket...
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 14, 2011, 11:12:13 pm: I wonder if those screen flipping tricks still work, and if it needs ALCDFIX. Or if it got worse.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: Dingus on June 14, 2011, 11:21:20 pm: Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
Darn this sucks,

Well, well, well, TI is back to their same old tricks. They throw us a bone called Lua, and every body breathes a sigh of relief. Was that premature? I think so. Surely their intentions are to put those unwanted goodies on all new 84's, what then?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: DrDnar on June 14, 2011, 11:24:09 pm: Can we get a dump of this supposed code?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 14, 2011, 11:25:28 pm: Personally, what I think is that eventually they might try to remove certain features from the 84+ or purposely break compatibility with certain assembly programs. This could discourage their small portion of calc customers that like to play games or program. At this point, they can promote Lua on the CX even harder, so people will get a CX instead of a 84+. What sucks about Lua, though, is that while it's powerful, it's still not giving us full freedom on the TI-Nspire models.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the TI community quickly found out how to break the new 84+ protection. After all, a lot of the 8x programmers here have been around for more than a decade and there's much more doc available for z80 models than there is for ARM ones. I'm sure BrandonW, ThePenguin77, Calc84maniac or KermMartian will find something.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: AngelFish on June 14, 2011, 11:26:00 pm: About all the inevitable TI knocking: Keep in mind that the ASM commands still work. The 84 is not a mini-Nspire.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: critor on June 14, 2011, 11:27:00 pm: Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
Darn this sucks, but are we sure there's no way to downgrade or install patched OSes?

There might be a way, be it won't be the usual way to install an OS.

Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
-Are the RSA keys any different or something?

The OS in the standard 2.55MP. So the RSA keys we know of are the same.
But there is probably something else in addition...

Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
Also does it blocks downgrades back to 2.55MP, should a new OS come out?

I suppose you can still downgrade to 2.55MP, shoud a new OS come out.
It's just that I hardly see how they could permanently store the minimum installable OS version.

Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
-Does the 2.55MP included still includes third-party apps compatibility and the Asm()/AsmComp()/Asmprgm commands?
-Does Output() runs at the same speed as on other calcs? ???

It's the same 2.55MP OS you know of.
So all commands are here, and all bugs too.

Quote from: DJ_O on June 14, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
-Is it possible to install patches after installing the OS, such as Zstart? Or will the OS give an error on boot once it's modified?

According to tests with the emulator, the boot does not seem to check the OS on boot, but only at installation time. So I suppose you can still patch oncalc.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 14, 2011, 11:27:05 pm: At least the classic 83/84+ lines aren't affected. Unless they want to change that too? Somehow I have a feeling they would.
At least assembly programs work. ~~Unless~~
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket Info, 2.71 MP Returns :(
Post by: DrDnar on June 14, 2011, 11:29:01 pm: I going to laugh if it's something ridiculously easy to bypass, like a CRC32. I'm also not going to believe a word of this until I see and analyze a dump.

Edit: Have you tried force loading a certificate from an older model and then reinstalling the OS? Or erasing the certificate?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 14, 2011, 11:30:22 pm: That's good to hear critor.

As for the older calcs I bet they might eventually try to phase them out, but again I'm not sure. After all the 83+ is still popular.

Also I edited the news title, because OS 2.71MP in it was rather misleading (2.71MP didn't have an anti-downgrade protection, while boot 1.03 doesn't remove Asm commands)
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Juju on June 14, 2011, 11:46:10 pm: I thought it was the OS and not the boot code that could remove Asm()?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DrDnar on June 14, 2011, 11:47:10 pm: Quote from: juju2143 on June 14, 2011, 11:46:10 pm
I thought it was the OS and not the boot code that could remove Asm()?
Correct. The new model runs the stock 2.55 just fine.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 14, 2011, 11:48:23 pm: So if they actually do plan on removing it, we can always fall back on this.

Man TI really loves downgrade protection, don't they? What's it for though? ??? Still don't see a point to it...
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 15, 2011, 02:33:50 am: Not sure. I hope they don't plan to remove some ASM programming freedom and take asm games away from us.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Stefan Bauwens on June 15, 2011, 02:37:23 am: Wait, is this bad? Can you still run applications and C programs?
For someone who doesn't need 3rd part OSs is this bad?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DrDnar on June 15, 2011, 02:39:12 am: It's bad if you've been trying to avoid MathPrint so that third-party software, you know, actually works.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 15, 2011, 02:41:34 am: Well, about MathPrint, you can still disable it in the MODE menu, although I think some programs still had compatibility issues with MP OSes even in Classic mode.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DrDnar on June 15, 2011, 02:51:55 am: Correct. Omnicalc, for example, has problems. Although, I released a version which fixed some of the worst problems. I also found 2.53 to be generally quite unstable.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: JosJuice on June 15, 2011, 03:25:21 am: Quote from: Stefan Bauwens on June 15, 2011, 02:37:23 am
Wait, is this bad? Can you still run applications and C programs?
For someone who doesn't need 3rd part OSs is this bad?
2.53 and 2.55 have a ton of glitches that make Asm programming hard. Many apps and programs will not work correctly unless you use 2.43 or older.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 15, 2011, 03:50:28 am: Quote from: DrDnar on June 15, 2011, 02:51:55 am
Correct. Omnicalc, for example, has problems. Although, I released a version which fixed some of the worst problems. I also found 2.53 to be generally quite unstable.
Yeah I heard about the stability issues too. Fortunately I rarely use MathPrint so I am fine, but I also saw some of my games didn't run well in it. An example is Reuben Quest and ROL2. I wouldn't be surprised if some other old games broke on ticalc. Ticalc got thousands of them, after all.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: aeTIos on June 15, 2011, 05:00:45 am: Too bad! D: Find out a way to hack this asap!
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Jim Bauwens on June 15, 2011, 05:04:03 am: The only reason why I think TI would do this is to force PTT on each new calculator. If this is true, then I'm sure you can expect the new 84's that will come out to have the 1.03 (or later) bootcode.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: AngelFish on June 15, 2011, 05:04:12 am: I'm probably in the minority here, but I've been using 2.53/2.55 for a couple years now with less than 3 RAM clears due to the OSes...

EDIT: @Jim, the boot code doesn't force PTT, which is also present on the normal calcs.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Jim Bauwens on June 15, 2011, 05:07:11 am: I know, but I mean that it will not be possible to downgrade to another os that doesn't have PTT.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: JosJuice on June 15, 2011, 05:08:27 am: Quote from: Qwerty.55 on June 15, 2011, 05:04:12 am
EDIT: @Jim, the boot code doesn't force PTT, which is also present on the normal calcs.
Yes, but 1.03 will force the user to only use OSes that have PTT.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Ashbad on June 15, 2011, 07:04:59 am: Quote from: Qwerty.55 on June 15, 2011, 05:04:12 am
I'm probably in the minority here, but I've been using 2.53/2.55 for a couple years now with less than 3 RAM clears due to the OSes...

EDIT: @Jim, the boot code doesn't force PTT, which is also present on the normal calcs.

I now run 2.43 since that's what my Wabbit runs, but I agree 2.53 isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Twerty on June 15, 2011, 09:09:46 am: I'm amazed that TI is so aggressive in their ways... Sony vehemently blocked downgrading of PSP firmware, but that was to prevent software piracy. Here, that isn't the case at all. Are they really losing any money here? I seriously doubt that anyone is not buying a calc out there because of lack of PTT. Especially when the very large majority of the public don't even seem know that they can upgrade their calcs. Even then, they won't be able to completely phase out the older models floating around.

Such a shame... will updates ever benefit anymore? :/
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Compynerd255 on June 15, 2011, 04:00:16 pm: This is how I first reacted when I read this:
Spoiler For First Reaction:
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
This can't be happening! They're defeating the programmers! How can they do this to us?

I think that someone should compile a list of all the CEOs and calc directors at TI, and see if changes in leadership have anything to do with what the code is. I suspect that TI's ambivalence might have to do with CEOs having different priorities.

One thing I also think about with these malicious attacks is that, although we are a minority of calc users, we are the Coders of Tommorow - their future employees. In today's time, there is a shortage of computer programmers (at least I think there is). TI wants to protect against hacking and exploitation, but they don't realize that there are plenty of programmers out there who got their start on hobbyist devices such as calculators. They need programmers to work their new devices, and if they defeat programmability, they are only defeating themselves.

We also have to remember that if there is a will, there is a way. TI's first offerings were not easily programmable, without native ASM support. The previous generation of TI programmers, with greats such as Joe Wimbergule and Sam Heald, were able to hack the 85 and bring ASM to the TI, which had influenced TI's decision making for the next several years. Now we are in the second generation, and TI is mounting their defenses again. They did it once. We can do it again.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: ben_g on June 15, 2011, 04:19:21 pm: Well,...
When I heard abouth ti releasing the lua sdk, I thought they would be caring a tiny bit about community, But now, they've proven (again) that they don't care abouth the community at all.

If they're going to take everything away from us, they almost force us to hack it. As long as the devices are programable, you will find a way to hack them. Ti adding any protection to hacking and programming, will only make it harder, not impossible. And ti trying to keep us out only makes it more challenging and more fun to hack it anyway ;)

Anyway, we should now all go buy casio graphing calcs, instaed of TI's. That'll teach them. >:D I beg that then, after a month, they will make their calcs more programmable again for a few years.

Anything can be hacked, when you'll try hard enough. Keep in mind that we're one of the most active calc hacking comunities. TI can't do anything abouth us.

EDIT: Ruler and everybody else that has "TI might not be so bad" in their signatures: You might want to take that out. You can maybe replace it with something like this:

TI became even worse
OR
I hate TI more that ever

or just change it back to 'I hate TI right now'
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Munchor on June 15, 2011, 04:23:55 pm: What a shame! Why? Why?! What a shame! Oh wait, what a shame!

Seriously now though, this is awful, this really sucks, why would they break their only programmable calculator?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: AngelFish on June 15, 2011, 04:36:09 pm: Quote from: Twerty on June 15, 2011, 09:09:46 am
I'm amazed that TI is so aggressive in their ways... Sony vehemently blocked downgrading of PSP firmware, but that was to prevent software piracy. Here, that isn't the case at all. Are they really losing any money here? I seriously doubt that anyone is not buying a calc out there because of lack of PTT. Especially when the very large majority of the public don't even seem know that they can upgrade their calcs. Even then, they won't be able to completely phase out the older models floating around.

Such a shame... will updates ever benefit anymore? :/

Sorry, off topic:

"Twerty...?"

Just going to say that Twerty is *not* me under another account to avoid any possible confusion :P
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: critor on June 15, 2011, 05:00:52 pm: Sorry, I've had a hard day as some of you have noticed.

I've tried a random game on my new TI-84 Pocket.fr and it worked without any problem:
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1183

Do you want me to try some specific games?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: TIfanx1999 on June 15, 2011, 05:10:20 pm: @Ben, Scout, Compynerd, & others: Well, the new 84 is still programmable, just not downgradeable to a different OS (yet). While it is disappointing and causes some compatibility issues, it isn't the end of the world. A work-around is feasible and likely in my opinion anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much just yet.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: ACagliano on June 15, 2011, 07:27:51 pm: Let me play devils advocate. What if the anti-downgrade protection is there because the hardware is designed in a way that would make any earlier OS incompatible or unstable?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Deep Toaster on June 15, 2011, 07:54:29 pm: Was just gonna point that out, but then I realized that it's not only that. The TI-83 Plus Silver Edition didn't work with OS 1.12 and below, for instance, but on that one TI didn't take the time and block all third-party OSes with some new form of protection.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Netham45 on June 15, 2011, 11:04:50 pm: My guess for this is that they're checking for a new signature, or if the MD5 equals something known.

The new signature probably isn't loaded from the cert anymore, either, they learned their lesson on that one.

If you can patch after install, though, it'd be rather trivial to put a new OS in there. Do the standard unlock tricks still work?
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: TIfanx1999 on June 15, 2011, 11:09:14 pm: Quote from: ACagliano on June 15, 2011, 07:27:51 pm
Let me play devils advocate. What if the anti-downgrade protection is there because the hardware is designed in a way that would make any earlier OS incompatible or unstable?

Although it *is* possible, it doesn't seem likely.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Netham45 on June 15, 2011, 11:12:12 pm: they're not going to redesign an architecture that's well over a decade old just to block a small group of hackers.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 16, 2011, 12:36:15 am: Yeah true, unless they were really determined to prevent ASM programs to run on newer models/hardware or something.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: JosJuice on June 16, 2011, 02:22:38 am: Quote from: critor on June 15, 2011, 05:00:52 pm
Do you want me to try some specific games?
Have you tried running a program that modifies the OS on-calc? If you haven't, I think it would be helpful to see if that still works, or if the flash unlock exploits are blocked.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: DrDnar on June 16, 2011, 03:32:53 am: IIRC, BrandonW has stated that TI cannot fix the universal flash unlock exploit without removing the ability to send variables directly to the archive.
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: aeTIos on June 16, 2011, 01:06:10 pm: that's crap. they did something good (and thats not positive for us)
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: critor on June 23, 2011, 04:59:10 pm: Have a first look into the new TI-84 Pocket.fr! ;)
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1208
Title: Re: New TI-84 Pocket adds anti-downgrade protection against 2.53MP and lower
Post by: Munchor on June 24, 2011, 07:48:03 am: Quote from: critor on June 23, 2011, 04:59:10 pm
Have a first look into the new TI-84 Pocket.fr! ;)
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=news&ac=commentaires&id=1208

I really like the fact that it's small :)