Omnimaga

Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: critor on November 13, 2012, 03:56:03 pm

Title: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: critor on November 13, 2012, 03:56:03 pm
Today on #omnimaga, Vijfhoek has released some huge photos about the new TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition.



You can count the screen pixels and you'll find out that it is 320x240 like on the TI-Nspire:
(http://i.imgur.com/H3DzVh.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/H3DzV.jpg)

Another great information comes from the memory manager screen:
(http://i.imgur.com/D28S1.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/D28S1.jpg)
The free RAM space of 22792B seems normal, but...
Look at that free space of 3293KB for the archive memory! Yes, more than 3.2MB archive space, meaning more than twice the TI-84 Plus Silver Edition arvchive space (1.5MB)! ;D(http://www.omnimaga.org/Themes/default/images/gpbp_arrow_up.gif)
The 2MB TI-84 Plus Silver Edition Flash ROM chip has probably been increased here to at least 4MB.

Note that according to this menu, you can store images in your calculator. They are merged with screen captures (Pic0-9 variables).



Source with more images: http://imgur.com/a/GeDfG#H3DzV
Source for technical specifications: http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=132299#p132299
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: mlytle0 on November 13, 2012, 05:27:44 pm
23K of free memory?  Is that the best that TI can do?  Another intentional cripple, this one, albeit with a much prettier face...

The TI-89 was the last calc they produced that was 'minimally crippled', and they're phasing that one out.

That leads me to think any speed-up over current TI Z80 products will be modest at best...They're sooooo terrified of taking any shine away from the Nspire line, their 'higher' crippled product line...

If Casio would just produce a CAS for the Prizm, they could clean TI's clock.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 13, 2012, 05:28:41 pm
I don't really understand, because they gave us 4MB of archive... Why not give us a load of RAM aswell?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 13, 2012, 05:30:12 pm
I don't really understand, because they gave us 4MB of archive... Why not give us a load of RAM aswell?
That would require a massive rewrite of their math engine and variable handlers, and even the variable formats, basically anything that accesses user RAM.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Eeems on November 13, 2012, 05:32:59 pm
Why would it require a re-write? Wont the extra ram just be extra pages that you can map onto a bank?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 13, 2012, 05:34:08 pm
Why would it require a re-write? Wont the extra ram just be extra pages that you can map onto a bank?
Yes, but the entire OS uses flat pointers that carry no page information. Plus, taking banking into account would make the slow OS even slower.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 13, 2012, 05:35:03 pm
Hm, maybe they have put in more RAM, but haven't rewritten the OS or something like that.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Eeems on November 13, 2012, 05:40:36 pm
Quote
Yes, but the entire OS uses flat pointers that carry no page information. Plus, taking banking into account would make the slow OS even slower.
How much slower would banking make it?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 13, 2012, 05:42:04 pm
23 K of RAM suggests that they are not switching to an eZ80. 3.2 MB of flash means they've done something that breaks ports 6 and 7. There's no way of knowing how broken existing tools will be. My guess is that port 6 will exclusively map flash and port 7 will exclusively map RAM, which will break a small number of programs. My guess is also that they have not restored the calculator back to 128 K of RAM; in fact, there may well be only 48 K of RAM. Even if the Z80 is clocked at 50 MHz, games will have a hard time driving all those pixels, and buffered graphics will be painful to program, if there's even enough RAM at all.

The existing BASIC parser doesn't support reading directly from flash. Also, the OS goes out of its way to prevent you from passing RAM pages (80h+) to functions that are supposed to manipulate flash. This is why, when there was 128 K of RAM, you couldn't use the extra RAM as flash---TI went out of their way to make sure we couldn't do such a thing, probably because they didn't want us to execute apps from RAM.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 13, 2012, 05:42:33 pm
Knowing TI, infinitely. :P

I mean, even us asm programmers prefer not to stream from archive because it gives so much overhead to check for page boundaries.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Builderboy on November 13, 2012, 06:11:28 pm
This looks like a fairly good calculator, but I am pretty worried as to how the new screen might limit games, instead of benefit them.  The reason I am worried is because the screen has been scaled up by a factor of 100 (320x240 = 76800 pixels to write to, whereas the regular 84/83 only has 768 bytes of screen memory).  This new screen is significantly larger than the 83/84, but the processor is at most 5 times faster, which means for programs that need to update large portions of the screen every frame (like tilemappers), there might be a large amount of slowdown.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 13, 2012, 06:12:30 pm
Also, don't forget the fact that the screen is color, so worst case it would be 3 bytes per pixel..
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 13, 2012, 07:10:59 pm
(7:00:35 PM) DrDnar: On the TI-84+C, create a program with the contents: AsmPrgm:210080:36E1:23:36E5:23:36C9:CD0080:EF0745:C9 and run it with Asm(. Tell us what number it displays. We're expecting 40355.
(7:06:46 PM) DrDnar: Basically, if AsmPrgm:210080:36E1:23:36E5:23:36C9:CD0080:EF0745:C9 crashes instead of spitting out a number, we're screwed and won't be able to do anything until getting our hands on the hardware ourselves.

Er, so you can't use colons (the : character) in asm programs. You need to do
Code: [Select]
:AsmPrgm
:210080
:36E1
:23
:36E5
:23
:36C9
:CD0080
:EF0745
:C9

Update:
(7:33:24 PM) OmnomIRC: (O)<calc84maniac> any particular reason you're doing pop hl \ push hl \ ret instead of pop hl \ jp (hl) ?
(7:33:53 PM) DrDnar: Hmm, that's pretty smart.
(7:33:58 PM) DrDnar: .z80 jp (hl)
(7:34:13 PM) DrDnar: Saves like five bytes.
(7:34:25 PM) OmnomIRC: (O)<calc84maniac> I'm thinking a LD HL,$E9E1 \ LD ($8000),HL \ CALL $8000 \ BCALL(_DISPHL) \ RET
(7:34:32 PM) VijfIrssi: less typing for meh :D
(7:34:38 PM) DrDnar: Yeah, do that.
(7:34:46 PM) DrDnar: @z80 LD HL,$E9E1 \ LD ($8000),HL \ CALL $8000 \ BCALL(_DISPHL) \ RET
(7:34:47 PM) RunerBot: [Z80] Assembly \ Pastebin attempt failed \ 13 bytes \ 21E1E9220080CD0080EF0745C9
(7:36:32 PM) DrDnar: New correct address: 40350
Code: [Select]
:AsmPrgm
:21E1E9
:220080
:CD0080
:EF0745
:C9
Correct address is now 40350.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 13, 2012, 09:59:39 pm
With all those pixels, they couldn't have used a less ugly font?

That would require a massive rewrite of their math engine and variable handlers, and even the variable formats, basically anything that accesses user RAM.
They already did so once (the TI-86) and if it were done intelligently, it wouldn't need to be significantly slower.  Whether TI would be willing to go to the extra effort is another question.

Basically, if AsmPrgm:210080:36E1:23:36E5:23:36C9:CD0080:EF0745:C9 crashes instead of spitting out a number, we're screwed and won't be able to do anything until getting our hands on the hardware ourselves.
I think you underestimate this community. ;)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 13, 2012, 10:14:02 pm
I'm pretty surprised that they didn't put more ram and archive memory into these. That's a bit dissapointing. :(
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 13, 2012, 10:40:09 pm
Hmm the home screen seems like home screen games won't be as compatible, after all >.< (it's more than 16x8). Illusiat might be fine, but NPC text might look funny.

As for the RAM I am not surprised, but I hope images will remain in archive like the PRIZM. I would hate if one single pic took the entire RAM. I'm sure the RAM chip is much larger, though, due to graph buffers. That extra RAM might be interesting for ASM/Axe coders :)

As for the fonts, I think they tried to keep it as close as possible to the old models. I don't like them much, but I like them much more than the PRIZM fonts.

Could an admin or staff include in the news also that TI-BASIC seemed to run at around 1.5x slower than the 84+ speed, according to Vijfhoek? (at least for graph commands) That isn't uber great news, but I was glad that it ran faster than the regular 83+.

EDIT: Something I am kinda worried about: Kerm mentions something about a charging port in one of the pics. That scares me. What if TI decided to remove USB charging and go the Apple way of forcing customers to buy their proprietary cable that doesn't fit anywhere else than the device if you lose your cable? I hope not, but sometimes we never know...
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 13, 2012, 11:11:36 pm
EDIT: Something I am kinda worried about: Kerm mentions something about a charging port in one of the pics. That scares me. What if TI decided to remove USB charging and go the Apple way of forcing customers to buy their proprietary cable that doesn't fit anywhere else than the device if you lose your cable? I hope not, but sometimes we never know...
Good point.  I'm guessing that the charging port is a special feature for the "classroom" model (looks like it's designed so you can simply drop the calcs into the charging station.)  But it would definitely be better if it could be charged over USB.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 13, 2012, 11:34:00 pm
If the 40350 test passes, you can use this to dump ROM pages:
prgmPAGEDUMP 114 bytes of code
Code: [Select]
AsmPrgm
EFD74AEF2842
2005210000
180E21FF00
EF464B5D54B7
21FF00ED527DF5
21049ECDE49D
21FF9DE7EFF142
3803EFC64F
21FF9DE7210040
E5EF6A4EE17D12
137C12134D44
F1EF175021FF9D
E7EFD84FC9

F5CB3FCB3FCB3F
CB3FCDF39DF1
E60F0630FE0A
38020637807723
C9

1550414745
000000
Use it like this:
0:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP)
This will create an appvar named PAGE00 and automatically archive it. Similarly, you can do 1:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP) and get PAGE01 and 255:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP) to get PAGEFF, because $FF = 255. Then, just send them to another calculator and post them online for analysis. Definitely get pages 0-7, and send those to another calc just in case dumping additional pages segfaults or something. (Who knows, maybe TI made it so that even reading from the certificate causes a reset.) Those pages should at least point us in the right direction. Pages 240-255 (especially 254 and 255) might also be good.

This will throw ERR:INVALID DIM if Ans is not a number, not an integer, or not in the range 0-255. This will throw ERR:MEMORY if there is not at least 16400 bytes of free RAM.

For automation, {0, 1, 2, 3, ...}:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP) will fail. But For(A, 0, 7):A:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP):End will dump the first seven pages for you.

Spoiler For Assembly source code:
Code: [Select]
.nolist
#include "ti83plus.inc"
.list
.org 9D93h
.db 0BBh, 6Dh

; check RAM
; ld hl, 4000h
; b_call(_EnoughMem)
; jr nc, gotRam
; ld hl, errNoMem
; b_call(_PutS)
; b_call(_NewLine)
; ret
;gotRam:
; get ans
b_call(_RclAns)
; convert to int
b_call(_CkOP1FP0)
jr nz, notZero
ld hl, 0
jr havePage
notZero:
ld hl, 255
b_call(_ConvDim00)
ld e, l
ld d, h
or a
ld hl, 255
sbc hl, de
havePage:
ld a, l
push af
; convert to hex at
ld hl, dumpNamePage
call intToStr
; make var
ld hl, dumpName
rst 20h ;b_call(_Mov9ToOP1)
b_call(_ChkFindSym)
jr c, noDel
b_call(_DelVarArc)
noDel:
ld hl, dumpName
rst 20h ;b_call(_Mov9ToOP1)
ld hl, 4000h
push hl
b_call(_CreateAppVar)
pop hl
ld a, l
ld (de), a
inc de
ld a, h
ld (de), a
inc de
; copy data
ld c, l
ld b, h
pop af
b_call(_FlashToRam)
ld hl, dumpName
rst 20h ;b_call(_Mov9ToOP1)
b_call(_Arc_Unarc)
ret


;------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
intToStr:
; A is the byte to display, HL write address
; push af
; push bc
push af
srl a
srl a
srl a
srl a
call db1
pop af
and 15
; call db1
; pop bc
; pop af
; ret
db1: ld b, '0'
cp 0Ah
jr c, db2
ld b, 'A'-0Ah
db2: add a, b
ld (hl), a
inc hl
ret


;====== Data ===================================================================
dumpName:
.db AppVarObj, "PAGE"
dumpNamePage:
.db 00, 00, 00
;errNoMem:
; .db "Need 16400b.", 0
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: chickendude on November 14, 2012, 12:23:16 am
Shouldn't that be 0:Asm(prgmPAGEDUMP ? ;)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 02:16:36 am
I wonder how long will an OS take to install on that thing (and what RSA key size will it use)...
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Vijfhoek on November 14, 2012, 02:25:22 am
EDIT: Something I am kinda worried about: Kerm mentions something about a charging port in one of the pics. That scares me. What if TI decided to remove USB charging and go the Apple way of forcing customers to buy their proprietary cable that doesn't fit anywhere else than the device if you lose your cable? I hope not, but sometimes we never know...

This connector is most likely meant for a mass-charger, seeing that it isn't really something for a cable. It's just two metal surfaces on both sides, which connect to thingies in the charger. Not really a practical solution for at home.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: aeTIos on November 14, 2012, 03:18:30 am
Could you rehost the images at img.removedfromgame.org? imgur is blocked here at school.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 14, 2012, 09:55:35 am
Basically, if AsmPrgm:210080:36E1:23:36E5:23:36C9:CD0080:EF0745:C9 crashes instead of spitting out a number, we're screwed and won't be able to do anything until getting our hands on the hardware ourselves.
I think you underestimate this community. ;)
If that crashes, we learn a little, too. That would mean it doesn't support asm programs and they forgot to fix some code that caused it to crash when ASM programs are run.

Otherwise, and this is highly unlikely, programs are run at 7FF1h and some of the code is getting overwritten XD Since I really doubt either case will happen, I am confident it will not crash. At most, it won't run (implying assembly programs are disabled).
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: chickendude on November 14, 2012, 12:09:12 pm
It could also mean programs aren't run from $9D95 and the labels aren't being treated correctly, in particular the call(s) and the AppVar name. Or that the BCALL table has changed.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 14, 2012, 12:39:19 pm
No, what happens is that code is copied to 8000h, then it is called. When you use "call", the the program counter is pushed to the stack. The code that got copied to 8000h is:
Code: [Select]
pop hl
push hl
ret
(which, as discussed elsewhere can be optimised :P )
Basically, HL now has the address that the original routine called it from. Then, we use bcall(_DispHL). If that bcall() has been changed or destroyed in some way, then there will be issues.

EDIT: The purpose of the code is to figure out where programs are run from. Once we know that, we can figure out how broken compatibility will be and start fixing our programs now, before the release.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Dark_Sunrise on November 14, 2012, 12:59:08 pm
I want :) That screen is great and that much Archive? YES
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: aeTIos on November 14, 2012, 01:00:13 pm
The speed is said to be bad.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: chickendude on November 14, 2012, 02:25:12 pm
No, what happens is that code is copied to 8000h, then it is called. When you use "call", the the program counter is pushed to the stack. The code that got copied to 8000h is:
Code: [Select]
pop hl
push hl
ret
(which, as discussed elsewhere can be optimised :P )
Basically, HL now has the address that the original routine called it from. Then, we use bcall(_DispHL). If that bcall() has been changed or destroyed in some way, then there will be issues.

EDIT: The purpose of the code is to figure out where programs are run from. Once we know that, we can figure out how broken compatibility will be and start fixing our programs now, before the release.
Err... i think we're talking about different programs. I was looking at "prgmPAGEDUMP", oops :P
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2012, 04:34:52 pm
The speed is said to be bad.

Was it tested again today? Yesterday there were reports about a 1.5x drop in speed, but then other reports about the speed being on par with the 84+.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: aeTIos on November 16, 2012, 01:24:01 pm
The speed is said to be bad.

Was it tested again today? Yesterday there were reports about a 1.5x drop in speed, but then other reports about the speed being on par with the 84+.
Well that's what I call "bad". I mean, come on, we've got a 320x240 screen, then I expect at least a bit of a speed gain too.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 16, 2012, 01:25:28 pm
If it maintains the same speed having only a z80 we are extremely lucky.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 16, 2012, 05:56:55 pm
If the screen driver is much better than the older calcs ones, then the speed loss might not be signifiant. However if the screen driver sucks, then some BASIC game types, along with ASM raycasters, might be in deep trouble.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 16, 2012, 10:17:47 pm
Even if the display is as fast as possible, the Z80 will be a bottleneck.  Assuming the screen is 8 bits per pixel (a 256-color palette) and assuming a 20 MHz clock rate, the fastest possible drawing algorithms would be on the order of one pixel per microsecond (except, perhaps, to fill the screen with a solid color or pattern.)  If you're redrawing the entire screen for every frame, one pixel per microsecond translates to about 13 FPS (and remember, that's if the CPU is doing nothing else.)

Programmers will need to be very clever in order to get decent performance from this thing.  That said, the programmers in this community are pretty clever. :D

(Just had a fun thought that contradicts what I said above: executable sprites.  If you're willing to reduce your palette to 3 colors at full resolution, or 10 colors at half resolution, you could encode your sprites as Z80 machine code and draw about 1 pixel for every ~6-8 clock cycles.  So, like I said, clever hacks.)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 16, 2012, 10:27:08 pm
(Just had a fun thought that contradicts what I said above: executable sprites.  If you're willing to reduce your palette to 3 colors at full resolution, or 10 colors at half resolution, you could encode your sprites as Z80 machine code and draw about 1 pixel for every ~6-8 clock cycles.  So, like I said, clever hacks.)
I don't quite understand what you mean by this. First of all, how do you port output in 6-8 clock cycles, and secondly, why the 3/10 color limit (and what is "half resolution"?)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 16, 2012, 10:27:15 pm
If there are no wait states, OTIR becomes a possibility. Of course, only if we can scrape together enough RAM for that to be useful.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 16, 2012, 10:28:15 pm
If there are no wait states, OTIR becomes a possibility. Of course, only if we can scrape together enough RAM for that to be useful.
Even better, unrolled OUTI. OTIR is 21 cycles per byte, OUTI is 16 cycles per byte.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 16, 2012, 10:28:56 pm
Hmm, that could be very useful in sprite routines.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 16, 2012, 10:34:27 pm
I was assuming it was memory-mapped (that was part of my assumption that "the display is as fast as possible.")  If everything has to be done with Z80 I/O instructions like on the older calcs, performance is obviously going to be atrocious.

To elaborate on the idea of "executable sprites" I mentioned, a sprite would be written as a series of PUSH instructions; you would load the desired pixel colors into registers before "calling" the sprite.  There are ten 16-bit registers that can be used this way (although actually, you'd probably want to reserve one or two to use for moving from one row to the next), and each push instruction takes 11 or 15 clock cycles and outputs two bytes.  Of course, you can get more creative if you want to use more colors at the expense of speed.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 16, 2012, 10:43:38 pm
FloppusMaximus is quite the optimist.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 16, 2012, 10:46:10 pm
Well, I think that if it is memory-mapped, handling page mapping and boundaries will be atrocious (as well as pointer calculation). If you can set the X and Y position directly with the driver and use auto-increment, it may not be too awful. You could still encode sprites as sequences of instructions, too, with a bunch of out (c),reg instructions (which would allow 7 colors), and assuming that inputting will also increment, you could implement transparent pixels as an in (c) instruction.

Edit: With out (c),0, you could actually have 8 colors.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 16, 2012, 10:47:12 pm
I'm sure TI had the same thoughts and decided not to use a memory-mapped solution, because who cares if it flickers whenever the screen is updated? Besides, it's a real snub to those awful game coders.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 16, 2012, 11:03:00 pm
True. :P

I did notice that in the photos we've seen, the graph screen appears to be 256 pixels wide - that would be convenient if it could be mapped to a memory buffer with 256 bytes per row.  But if that were the case, where would the left and right "margins" be stored?  Perhaps it's just that the OS has a graph buffer that is a convenient size for drawing, and it adds padding when copying that image to the actual framebuffer.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: calc84maniac on November 17, 2012, 03:00:26 am
We've counted the pixels in this photo (http://i.imgur.com/H3DzVh.jpg) and it appears that the graph size is 265x165 pixels (which goes along with TI tradition of having an odd number of pixels for symmetry reasons).

I feel like the LCD driver probably has its own internal RAM and you output to that somehow (once the borders are initialized you never need to worry about them again)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: aeTIos on November 17, 2012, 03:54:38 am
Would that be good or bad? (I feel like it's good but not sure...)
eg, when you have to send an "update" command it's fine, but not when it updates automagically (knowing TI, it will do that D:)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 17, 2012, 05:11:20 am
if this unti has it's own "video ram" for displaying pictures that would be excellent. We wouldn't have to worry about putting them in user ram. It seems that would make the most sense.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: apcalc on November 19, 2012, 07:10:40 pm
Can't wait for this to come out!  I wonder is TI is pushing the 84 now due to poor Nspire sales?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 19, 2012, 11:23:51 pm
I wouldn't be surprised. Or maybe they're not that poor but 84+ sales are slowly decreasing due to the PRIZM selling more?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 19, 2012, 11:55:26 pm
You know, it's quite likely that this thing will have more VRAM than CPU RAM, and the VRAM will still be fairly fast. We could write for it a new garbage collector that buffers sectors into VRAM. (Assuming, of course, that we can still read from it, like we currently can.) And unlike buffering into the extra 80 K of RAM we don't have anymore, TI can't remove the VRAM without breaking their own shiny new display. Best of all, it'll make a really cool "busy" animation.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 20, 2012, 12:01:05 am
I'M definitively thinking about VRAM or video buffers stored in archive. The latter would be totally inneficient, but we never know with TI.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 20, 2012, 12:12:14 am
What do you mean by video buffer in the archive? Streaming a static picture out of the archive would be quite fast, and the assembly community will definitely find a way to do it, what with the severely limited RAM we're bound to deal with. But if you're thinking of dynamically changing the picture in the archive, that would definitely be pretty slow, and wear out the chip faster than any ridiculous thing we've hacked up.

Tangentially relevant discussion from #cemetech:
(12:02:14 AM) BrandonW: I very much have my doubts about accessing 4MB of Flash with the paging hardware as-is. I think they changed it to support the color LCD, and while they were at it, allowed more Flash.
(12:02:22 AM) BrandonW: Or, perhaps the logic was vice versa.
(12:02:49 AM) DrDnar: I bet they threw in more flash more as an after thought.
(12:03:17 AM) ParkerR: Or maybe once they are trying to be nice...
(12:03:20 AM) ParkerR: Naah that cant be it
(12:03:25 AM) ParkerR: :)
(12:03:27 AM) DrDnar: Can't be it.
(12:05:22 AM) DrDnar: Since you figure TI will invariable choose the least-efficient method of storing pictures, I bet they realized that 320*240 = 76800 * 4 = 307200 bytes, so 1.5 MB won't hold very many pictures. (Least efficient method = bitmap with 24-bit color and each aligned to 4-byte boundaries, i.e. wasting 8-bits.)
(12:06:24 AM) DrDnar: 1.5/0.3 = 5 and 1.5 / 0.08 = 18
(12:11:46 AM) DrDnar: We'll have to take up the slack in TI's penchant for wasting space by making lossy-compressed image decoders ourselves.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 20, 2012, 12:18:14 am
Well, I mean if to update the screen buffers the calc has to constantly write to flash. Wouldn't that be slower than doing it from RAM (notice how long it takes to archive a program, for example)? Also I was worried about flash chip wearing out, although some people say that it's an urban legend.

Also if they added more RAM/VRAM and Flash in case for later, I wonder if they might not change their mind a few revisions numbers later then reduce it? I mean, like they did with the TI-84+ extra RAM in 128.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 20, 2012, 12:26:48 am
Yeah, exactly.

Also, unlike the 128 K of RAM, the 4 MB of flash is advertised. (TI buys flash chips from other companies---at least three are known---and the chips only come in certain sizes. TI can't knock off 128 K of flash unless they custom manufacture the chips.)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: willrandship on November 20, 2012, 02:13:07 am
I hope they upgrade the RAM quite a bit as well.

Maybe they're not using a larger image format. It might be that they just use the old size, with backgrounds and whatnot completely ignored. That would explain where it all went.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 20, 2012, 04:44:06 am
So I quickly made up some sample images showing various ways to downsize an image. I want to point out the nearest neighbor is the most simple way to downsize an image and also produces the worst results, at least for typical photographs. Similarly, if the TI-84+C uses palette-tized color, there are various methods TI could use to reduce the color depth of images. The color reduction image uses 4-bit color (16 colors) to highlight the differences between algorithms, but it's possible the TI-84+C will use 8-bit color (256 colors) or 16-bit color (65536 colors). (16-bit color is good enough for most non-photographic purposes; the primary reason to use 24-bit color in computers is that it's a lot easier for software to work with.) Again, the simplest way to handle color reduction is using a fixed palette with no dithering, which also gives the worst results. I'll let you decide which algorithms TI will use.

EDIT: I screwed up a bit with the fixed palette one. It actually has 74 colors. And still sucks the most.

Edit 2: I just noticed the moiré pattern on the inside of the hat on the bicubic sharper reduction, which I also used for the color reduction image set.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: aeTIos on November 20, 2012, 04:45:45 am
lemme guess, the worst of course :p
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: willrandship on November 20, 2012, 05:21:18 pm
The image resizing only needs to be done once, so it will probably end up being bicubic. (default option in GIMP and many other decent photo editors)

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a palleted system, but if it's there it will probably be adaptive pallete, since the screen is capable of far more. And I seriously doubt it will be reduced to 16-color. 256-color seems far more likely (16 is only a nybble per pixel. 256-color adaptive pallete is easier to write in C)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 20, 2012, 09:21:59 pm
The hardware doesn't limit what algorithms you can use to resize or quantize the image.  And those are not things you would normally be doing on the calculator anyway.  You can use whatever algorithm you like - although, obviously, higher-quality pictures will require more memory, and memory is going to be in short supply.

The interesting question is what the hardware actually allows you to display.  8-bit pseudocolor would, I think, be ideal for performance, but TI probably doesn't consider game performance to be their top priority. :P
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 20, 2012, 10:29:41 pm
I was wondering which system TI Connect would use to convert images before sending them to the TI-84+C. It may be true that there are good existing open source solutions, and it's also true that TI will probably never consider using an open source solution, and decide against licensing commercial code.

I want to point (again?) out that using 8-bit color maybe not be so great for games because a back-buffer would require 77 K of RAM. There may not be enough RAM in the system to make a back buffer, and if there is, filling/sending it would require at least 3 page changes, possibly 5. 4-bit color reduces that to 2 or 3 page changes, and if TI adds no RAM, still leaves games with 10 K of RAM, assuming nobody minds RAM resets. And that's just filling, nevermind drawing. But the best option would be selectable color modes. If there's a monochrome mode, a back-buffer would only require 9600 bytes.

And, of course, a non-back-buffered gaming graphics solution would invariably force programmers to continuously consider flickering issues.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 20, 2012, 11:16:33 pm
You're absolutely right, it would be best if programmers could select between several different modes based on which is best for your application.  But I find that somewhat unlikely.

If it were 8-bit pseudo-color, you could divide up the buffer by planes, and do double-buffered 4-bit graphics within a single 77-kilobyte buffer.  (Of course, it may not be possible to change all the palette entries at once, but that should be comparatively fast.)  Or you could reserve some planes for storing other data.

On the subject of TI-Connect and image conversion... you can be sure that the community will very quickly release plenty of image converters that are far superior to anything TI comes up with. :)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: tr1p1ea on November 20, 2012, 11:44:32 pm
Im wondering why they went with such a high resolution screen? Surely something like a 160x120 would have sufficed?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: ruler501 on November 20, 2012, 11:48:00 pm
especially for the ti-84. Without upgrading the hardware more its kind of useless to put that big of a screen on it
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Ranman on November 22, 2012, 09:49:13 pm
Sweet!

Now...

Where's my color TI-89? :banghead: ;D
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 22, 2012, 11:59:22 pm
A Ranman? O.O

Nice to see you again. :D

And yeah I wish they would do that with the TI-89... if they don't then it will be clear that they're trying to kill the 68K line. >.<
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 23, 2012, 04:59:15 am
Omg, it's a Ranman! Sadly, I doubt we will ever see the 68k series get such an upgrade. :/
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Ranman on November 23, 2012, 11:06:50 am
Never say never.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 24, 2012, 04:11:08 pm
Maybe Adriweb, Critor or others could contact TI asking if they plan to release a new 68K calc or update them in the near future?

That said, I'm betting they'll say to go with the CX CAS instead. Seems things went that way with TI in terms of calc replacements ???

TI-81->82->83->83P->84P/Pocket
TI-83PSE->84PSE/Pocket SE->84PCSE
TI-80->73->73 Explorer
TI-85->86->89->89T->Nspire CAS->Nspire CAS Touchpad->Nspire CX CAS

And I am pretty sure that they initially planned to completely replace the 84+ line with the regular TI-Nspire, but then scrapped the idea.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Adriweb on November 25, 2012, 06:46:16 am
Some new photos :

(http://www.1800calculators.com/image/cache/data/84%20COLOR%202-500x500.jpg)
( Source : http://www.1800calculators.com/TI-84%20Plus%20C%20Silver%20Edition%20Color%20Graphing%20Calculator )

and
(http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4200/xov91f4/products/2121/images/2496/84c_case_right_cmyk__94663.1349282754.120.120.jpg)
( Source : http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DcHHss-N9HkJ:www.copcoinc.com/ti-nspire-cx-touchpad-ti-84-family/+&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk )

Looks like some stores are setting up the pages and some of them put them publicly (at least temporarily on some)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 25, 2012, 01:39:07 pm
I like the G-T graphing mode. It looks a bit dated due to the colors but it still seems to do the job rather well.

Also why on these two sites the calc is slightly cheaper than the 84+SE? ??? I'm definitively thinking some stores will stop carrying the 84+SE original after the Color one comes out.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Adriweb on November 25, 2012, 02:05:41 pm
I guess we'll be able to chose the colors on our own :P

IDK about the future of the 84+SE but maybe its price will get lower ?
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Darl181 on November 25, 2012, 02:21:29 pm
Quote from: linked site
Availability: In Stock
lol :P

Maybe it'll be possible to have some sort of theme editor (a la the ndless3 one, or better) on this. Would be beast.
Title: Re: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 25, 2012, 05:20:06 pm
If there is no theme editor, the community will create one, anyway :P (like on the Prizm and TI-Nspire)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Adriweb on November 25, 2012, 08:21:04 pm
Higher resolution image messing with the url (120 -> 1280) :
(http://tiplanet.org/wiki/images/9/9d/TI-84_Plus_C_Silver_Edition_side.png)
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 25, 2012, 08:29:06 pm
That looks pretty gorgeous o.o
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: DrDnar on November 25, 2012, 08:43:25 pm
I must admit, that screen doesn't look half-bad. Clean, simple. I just worry that the UI will be awfully slow. I really do hope that TI doesn't actually half-ass this, but I have my doubts. They'll really need to increase the CPU clock speed and add RAM if it's not going to be slow and awkward to program.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: willrandship on November 25, 2012, 10:49:44 pm
TI loves to screw with their education market. Never underestimate their ability to do so.
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: ruler501 on November 25, 2012, 10:55:20 pm
We can hope...
I would probably get this if I had money and it had reasonable hardware
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: epic7 on November 26, 2012, 12:00:57 am
That's a pretty calculator O.O
Like ruler, I'll probably get it if the hardware is sufficient.
The hard part will be convincing my parents to let me buy one :P
Title: Re: TI-84 Plus C: new photos reveal more than 3MB archive space
Post by: willrandship on November 26, 2012, 12:06:19 am
I don't know....The Raspberry Pi is getting minecraft. I might just have to stick with it for a while. :P