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Omnimaga => News => Topic started by: critor on June 20, 2013, 05:27:25 pm

Title: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: critor on June 20, 2013, 05:27:25 pm
nLaunch is an alternative OS launcher alternative TI-Nspire, which is injected in the boot2 3.1.0.16.

It bypasses all protections and install:
This last point has recently been a problem for Portuguese exams prohibiting the use of a CAS engine (http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12227&lang=en).

As a consequence, we were not surprised to discover in a previous news (http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12360&lang=en) a new 3.2.4.1237 OS on the latest manufactured TI-Nspire CX calculators.
Indeed this OS:
In an official document, Texas Instruments has communicated with Portuguese teachers:
http://www.ti-education-news.com/media_db/upload/1371222887_1093.pdf
automatic english translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti-education-news.com%2Fmedia_db%2Fupload%2F1371222887_1093.pdf)

This paper discusses several points:
(http://i.imgur.com/iLqLFiA.jpg)
This goes far beyond the simple detection Nlaunch because there it will also detect adepts of the "case switching" who put the TI-Nspire CAS hardware in the TI-Nspire non-CAS case! ;D(http://www.omnimaga.org/Themes/default/images/gpbp_arrow_up.gif)




Source:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12484&lang=en

Link:
http://www.ti-education-news.com/media_db/upload/1371222887_1093.pdf
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 20, 2013, 05:42:37 pm
Meh. I turned my CX into a CAS one for price reasons. In France they don't care. :P (mostly because they are lazy but also because banning CAS is stupid IMHO)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Sorunome on June 20, 2013, 05:43:46 pm
lol, a cas indication on the screen >.<
But they can't prevent that stuff on the old nspires that are already sold :D
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 20, 2013, 05:44:30 pm
Eyup. Also people willing to do it will buy the TTL adapter and downgrade anyway. Unless TI upgrades the boot1.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: gtugablue on June 20, 2013, 06:23:57 pm
OSLauncher.tns ftw
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 20, 2013, 06:25:41 pm
Seriously ? It sucks. <_< Also you need 3.1 for this one.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: gtugablue on June 20, 2013, 06:31:47 pm
It works perfectly in my Nspire classic and i don't need 3.2. Even if I did need 3.2 I could use oslauncher as well to start one OS at a time (3.2 and CAS).
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 20, 2013, 06:33:05 pm
In some exams you have to have the latest version.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: gtugablue on June 20, 2013, 06:35:10 pm
Not in Portugal unfortunately
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 20, 2013, 07:23:21 pm
I don't care though because in France it's a "do whatever the f*ck you wanna do" type deal  with calcs so yeah. :P
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: gtugablue on June 20, 2013, 07:32:41 pm
Lol install linux, attach a wifi dongle and ask someone to do the exam for you :)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: AlexisVieira on June 20, 2013, 08:00:17 pm
lol, a cas indication on the screen >.<
But they can't prevent that stuff on the old nspires that are already sold :D
yes we can :)

Lol install linux, attach a wifi dongle and ask someone to do the exam for you :)
whooo :o i'll try that idea xD
Title: Re: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 20, 2013, 09:11:51 pm
IMHO fighting cheaters and making sure they can be caught easier is a good move, but it sucks that TI constantly punishes everyone who don't want to cheat and instead want to succeed in school. Those students spent $150 on a tool they use legitimately to help them learn and they should be able to do whatever legal thing they want with it, now that they own it. Once again, everyone's rights are removed for the action of a few lazy students (who cheat in order to pass their exams) and lazy school administrations (who don't want to bother checking people's calc content prior starting the exam).
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Stefan Bauwens on June 21, 2013, 03:27:32 am
Why did Critor get a downrating there? O.O

Just like DJ_O said, I think it somehow is a good move. Making a CX a CX CAS just doesn't seem quite right to me without paying for it anyway...

But now I think of it, the only reason you're (most likely) going to take a CAS-made-CX with you to exams where it isn't allowed is to cheat, so I would say: Own fault. :P


Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 21, 2013, 04:26:28 am
Not sure, but probably someone who absolutely despise TI who was upset that Critor's post didn't bash TI really hard like in the OS 2.1 days and he decided to rate his post based on his opinion of TI rather than content. I rated it back up since I don't see why it should be downrated.

As for the move, I just hope that this doesn't permanently prevent any downgrade exploits and that the days of Linucx aren't counted.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: critor on June 21, 2013, 04:59:08 am
Well, I don't agree with the 3.2.4 downgrade protection - but this has allready been addressed in my previous news (http://ourl.ca/19073), even if Persalteas did post it in my place.

This news was mainly about the 1st OS 3.6 capture, and I can't see why I would be unhappy with a CAS indicator on the home screen - it just doesn't bother me and I don't mind.


But if somebody else wants to news about this and prove us this is evil/bad, please do.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Dapianokid on June 21, 2013, 12:03:04 pm
Wasn't Nlaunch released April Fools Day, though??
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Hooloovoo on June 21, 2013, 12:16:39 pm
Nlaunch CX was launched April first, but the non-CX version was released before that. Nlaunch was not an April fools day prank, it was real.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 21, 2013, 12:53:42 pm
Just like DJ_O said, I think it somehow is a good move. Making a CX a CX CAS just doesn't seem quite right to me without paying for it anyway...
I don't know how you feel about it but paying €150 for a calc doesn't sound right to me when you see things like a Raspberry Pi that is infinitely more powerful and yet only costs $35. ;)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Hayleia on June 21, 2013, 01:22:24 pm
Just like DJ_O said, I think it somehow is a good move. Making a CX a CX CAS just doesn't seem quite right to me without paying for it anyway...
I don't know how you feel about it but paying €150 for a calc doesn't sound right to me when you see things like a Raspberry Pi that is infinitely more powerful and yet only costs $35. ;)
Yeah, but when buying a calculator, you don't only buy the hardware, you also buy all the work that engineers put to prevent you from doing what you want on your calc. So yeah, a Raspberry Pi is an even better choice seen from that point of vue... but it is not allowed in any exam so you actually have to pay a lot to get that overpriced calculator.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 21, 2013, 01:24:24 pm
LOL
Also Linux is about 20% more awesome than the Nspire and it's totally free. :D
Plus TI are lazy guys since they reused the whole CAS engine from the 68k series. So you effectively only pay for crap HW and lockdowns. :P
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 21, 2013, 02:06:38 pm
Just like DJ_O said, I think it somehow is a good move. Making a CX a CX CAS just doesn't seem quite right to me without paying for it anyway...
I don't know how you feel about it but paying €150 for a calc doesn't sound right to me when you see things like a Raspberry Pi that is infinitely more powerful and yet only costs $35. ;)
Indeed, although we can't use a Rasberri Pi as calculator in math exams here :P
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Adriweb on June 21, 2013, 02:10:32 pm
Also Linux is about 20% more awesome than the Nspire and it's totally free. :D
They don't have the same goals at all, so you can't compare.

Plus TI are lazy guys since they reused the whole CAS engine from the 68k series.
I'm sorry, but I see you are using your Omnimaga account over and over again to post messages. Shouldn't you be creating a new one for each post ? What a lazy behaviour.
Being a little more serious, let me remind you that TI bought the original CAS engine company ("Derive" IIRC) and started making it evolve over time, using it on the 68k then the Nspires. Obviously they were not going to reinvent the wheel, that'd just be stupid. Something we can be annoyed by, however, is the presence of some bugs that weren't there before (but at least there are also some new features too)

So you effectively only pay for crap HW and lockdowns. :P
But as far as I can see you own some TI calcs (and even an Nspire). If you dislike the HW and SW as you say, you should donate it to people who actually need to use the calc for what it can provide.



In short, I find your post quite useless and it looks like you are simply copying other people's ideas without any added value ...




Now, to be more on-topic : 3.6 needs to have 3.2.4 first, as said, probably for the boot2 upgrade (which can still be prevented by tnoc, but then who knows how 3.6 will react), and well, in fact TI has a public page hosting 3.2.4, even though no other pages link to it, TI-Cares can give you the link (it's actually not very difficult to guess, they had already used this kind of url before). It's probably not useful at all anyway, since we (TI-Planet) have already done the testings (tnoc, boot2 extraction + log...)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 21, 2013, 02:11:38 pm
@DJ : I know but we're hackers and the RPi is the new beginner's toy. Children code on it while you don't get a calc before being like 14 or so. I'm talking about programming wise advantages.

@Adriweb : I was just kidding. I hate TI for what they're doing to us but we fight back. Also I did not choose to get any of my TI calcs excpet for the Nspire.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Adriweb on June 21, 2013, 02:16:37 pm
But that doesn't make the things less true...

BTW I edited the "CAS" parts a bit to explain
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 21, 2013, 02:21:24 pm
Something we can be annoyed by, however, is the presence of some bugs that weren't there before
Bugs that weren't there before and also 18 years old bugs. (http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11430&p=136995) :P

Plus TI are lazy guys since they reused the whole CAS engine from the 68k series.
I'm sorry, but I see you are using your Omnimaga account over and over again to post messages.
And maybe I'll get a new calc every time I do 2+2. That's probably a good idea./me runs

Also what's happening with z80 calcs shows that a bit of openness is the way to go : now that TI dropped support for anything older than the CSE, people are fixing bugs and expanding these calculators. Not only with games, they also expand on the primary function of what's meant to be a calculator. ;)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 21, 2013, 02:35:17 pm
Yeah I can easily understand why people would hate TI after everything they did. Of course, they have some reasons to do it, but they could try to find other ways to do it, such as having teachers monitor calcs more and making it easier for them (the CAS writing on the Home menu is a good move). I think that if they tried to find a way to permanently make sure that Ndless won't easily allow disabling cheating measures, but still allowed Ndless to a certain extent, then the community would be fine with them. After all, everytime cheating tools are posted here, staff lock the topics then delete the programs, and that happens on pretty much every active calculator programming site. I mean, new fake reset programs aren't even allowed anymore on ticalc.org. People here hate when people cheat and will try in every way possible to prevent them from doing so. Of course, there are still warez sites, but when people google for calc tools they usually run into big sites such as Omni, ticalc, Cemetech or TI-Planet.

The other issue is that TI calculators other than the TI-76.Fr are overpriced. Normally the TI-84 Plus Silver Edition should be $89.99 (which is what the FX-9860G costs) and CSE around $99.99. The TI-Nspire is more powerful, hardware-wise, but it should be $139.99 at most. TI isn't really making us pay for the software, because the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition barely adds anything new other than colors, background images and the larger screen.

Also Adriweb I think it's wrong to question Streetwalker's posting quality and treat him like if he was a n00b who contributes nothing to the community:
Quote
In short, I find your post quite useless and it look like you are simply be copying other people's ideas without any added value ...
So if you notice a downrate on your post, this time it is probably me. I know that the other parts were sarcastic, but I couldn't see any sarcasm in this one. He has contributed quite a bit in the past here, even if his signal-to-noise ratio isn't among the best (he did troll or flood before, but that is nothing compared to certain other members when they originally joined the forums), and he is simply stating his opinion and if we can't joke anymore on Omni then it will get boring fast.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Adriweb on June 21, 2013, 04:12:22 pm
DJ_O : There's a big difference between :
question Streetwalker's posting quality and treat him like if he was a n00b who contributes nothing to the community
and
Quote
In short, I find your post quite useless and it look like you are simply be copying other people's ideas without any added value ...

Not only did I say "post" and not "posts" since I was only refering to one post of his and not in general, and like him, I guess I have the right to express my opinion (about his, there.) ?
And I even threw some sarcasm about recreating accounts. if we can't joke anymore on Omni then it will get boring fast

I couldn't see any sarcasm in this one.  He has contributed quite a bit in the past here, even if his signal-to-noise ratio isn't among the best (he did troll or flood before, but that is nothing compared to certain other members when they originally joined the forums)
Well, sometimes, the truth can hurt. But after all, it was nothing more than my thought about this specific post. i wasn't even talking about any of his other posts. My post did not depend on the author of the post I was criticizing, it could have been anyone.



Anyway, let's not spend any more seconds on this, it's a waste of time (that we don't have enough for creating useful things...)...

And I don't like bumping threads with non-topic things........






EDIT about next post by Streewalker : "I do agree with you DJ. Freedom of speech is pretty important to me and I hate when it's taken away from anypony."
This is the kind of things that irritate me. For me, this is just a sign of not being mature. Mixing a "freedom of speech" importance sentence with an "anypony" at the end. Seriously. I don't even find a smiley for this.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 21, 2013, 04:16:24 pm
I do agree with you DJ. Freedom of speech is pretty important to me and I hate when it's taken away from anypony.
I don't know why you got two downvotes but you got one upvote from me.
Edit : ninja'd, see next page for an explanation
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 21, 2013, 05:27:17 pm
Well Adriweb the 2nd part of your sentence was misworded, then. It seems to imply that every single post ever made by Streetwalker on Omni since he joined are useless and have nothing of value. You should probably have said:
Quote
In short, I find your post quite useless and in it it look like you are simply be copying other people's ideas without any added value ...


As for the sarcasm I did notice it. Hence why I didn't complain about the sentences involved. My previous post also state that I did notice sarcasm in certain of your sentences.


As for the anypony thing I agree that there are some people here who are a bit obsessed with My Little Pony and brings it up at places where it is unnecessary, but I think at this point you should maybe lay out from Streetwalker, because it made me skeptical about the veracity of the following statement:
My post did not depend on the author of the post I was criticizing
Else you would have criticised pimathbrainiac, Sorunome, Augs and Blue_bear_94 many times before too.


Regarding free speech, free speech doesn't exist on any calculator forum because they are not ran by government. Each admin run the site as they see fit. For example:

-On Omnimaga and Cemetech, insulting members is frowned upon (although on Cemetech veterans can insult you if you are stubborn and don't learn from mistakes)
-On TI-Planet, you are not allowed to mention TI-BANK
-On ticalc.org, during arguments, I sometimes saw comments being deleted by one or more staff who didn't like the poster.
-We can't upload Fake Reset nor PTTKiller-type programs almost anywhere.

However, there is still a certain form of freedom. For example politely reprimanding someone with the truth (which can hurt, yes) is allowed, but outright libel and harrassment are not.

Also I think it's wrong to dislike someone only because he dislikes TI. I know that you are affiliated with TI, but if someone bashes TI here it doesn't necessarily make them better or worse persons. Same if they like MLP.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Adriweb on June 21, 2013, 06:23:37 pm
Well Adriweb the 2nd part of your sentence was misworded, then. It seems to imply that every single post ever made by Streetwalker on Omni since he joined are useless and have nothing of value. You should probably have said:
Quote
In short, I find your post quite useless and in it it look like you are simply be copying other people's ideas without any added value ...
Sure, if it is an English problem, case closed then.


As for the sarcasm I did notice it. Hence why I didn't complain about the sentences involved. My previous post also state that I did notice sarcasm in certain of your sentences.
Right, just wanted to make sure.


As for the anypony thing I agree that there are some people here who are a bit obsessed with My Little Pony and brings it up at places where it is unnecessary, but I think at this point you should maybe lay out from Streetwalker, because it made me skeptical about the veracity of the following statement:
My post did not depend on the author of the post I was criticizing
Else you would have criticised pimathbrainiac, Sorunome, Augs and Blue_bear_94 many times before too.
As you can see, I added my remark about that later, as an edit, I obviously wasn't going to make a new post about that.
And again, I complained about the rest, not the MLP thing : it's not related to my criticism (it only added more feeling of lack of maturity to what Streetwalker said when talking about freedom of speech just a few words before), if it were, I would indeed have publicly criticized other people. (BTW, my opinion has pretty much as much value as its opposite, probably, but I think that when strangers come to Omni for whatever reason, via Google or else, and see some MLP things in the middle of a somewhat serious discussion about calc programming , it might be quite ... "surprising".


Regarding free speech, free speech doesn't exist on any calculator forum because they are not ran by government. Each admin run the site as they see fit. (...)
Sure, I was just quoting the term. But still, I don't know if stuff like that applies to only certain things or are to be considerd widely global (because you still can't do things that are against the law)


However, there is still a certain form of freedom. For example politely reprimanding someone with the truth (which can hurt, yes) is allowed, but outright libel and harrassment are not.
Well... you and I both know you don't have to remind us of that, having been in much worse situations before in the TI community ... ;)


Also I think it's wrong to dislike someone only because he dislikes TI. I know that you are affiliated with TI, but if someone bashes TI here it doesn't necessarily make them better or worse persons.
Again, this has nothing to do with his opinion about TI and judging if he's a good or bad person : I believe I explained why for me his specific post was "useless" (my thought, again), because seriously, "Plus TI are lazy guys since they reused the whole CAS engine from the 68k series." didn't really look like a joke to me and can you even try to actually defend this statement ... ? If you were the target of such a sentence, you would seriously despise its author because they probably have no clue of what's hapening in reality, and it's more this that bothers me : people stating direct and false things, let's actually say libel.


This brings me to something else but related :
I'm somewhat close to TI indeed ("affiliated" might be a strong word, it depends on what level and with who specifically), and so aare other members here, but this is *why* I am probably able to better say whether what people say about something is true or not. And it's the same concerning what I think about them : because I know more about TI's vision/beliefs than the average community member, I can see some stuff with a further/different pov and this can also lead to more positive criticism on my part about them as much as negative ones !



-----------
Anyway, for the sake of keeping the topic clean, couldn't we split it ? :P As said, I don't really like off-topic things
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: ruler501 on June 21, 2013, 07:22:37 pm
I think it is great that TI is helping to find cheating. I would love if they let linux run and left their calculators open, but I don't complain too much I can still use 3.1 with nlaunch if I want. Other than the new anti-cheating and boot2 are there any new features that you know of or could disclose?
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: AlexisVieira on June 21, 2013, 07:27:08 pm
I think it is great that TI is helping to find cheating. I would love if they let linux run and left their calculators open, but I don't complain too much I can still use 3.1 with nlaunch if I want. Other than the new anti-cheating and boot2 are there any new features that you know of or could disclose?

no, only that two things... the new features will come only with the oS 3.6 on october 2013
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Adriweb on June 21, 2013, 07:52:46 pm
Other than the new anti-cheating and boot2 are there any new features that you know of or could disclose?
There are new and changed things obviously (it's been quite a while since 3.2.0 :P) but it's not to be disclosed, sorry :(

We'll be newsing about it as soon as we are allowed to anyway :)
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 21, 2013, 10:46:15 pm
However, there is still a certain form of freedom. For example politely reprimanding someone with the truth (which can hurt, yes) is allowed, but outright libel and harrassment are not.
Well... you and I both know you don't have to remind us of that, having been in much worse situations before in the TI community ... ;)

I know, but sometimes we have to make sure, because people change over time. For example, someone can increasingly become more rude over time or vice-versa, and there are even people who can change in an instant, sometimes due to personal situations, such as losing their girlfriend, although in most cases they are just revealing their true self after years of being more careful, like you-know-who in 2011. :P


Anyway, regarding TI and the NDA/affiliation, I understand where you are coming from. I think now we should more worry about what's to come in OS 3.6 and possibly the future of Ndless and nLaunch rather than discussing the misunderstanding further. :P
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Streetwalrus on June 22, 2013, 03:48:14 am
As for the anypony thing I agree that there are some people here who are a bit obsessed with My Little Pony
Err I just said "anypony" in place of "anybody". That's not an MLP obsession but more to remove some seriousness from the discussion.
Also that post can seem a bit off, that's because Adriweb ninja'd me and I was editing but my father cut the Internet access. D: Now I'm back online I just wan't to say that I didn't want to start a row with my remarks and that I'd like it to stop here.
BTW, it's not because I have the same opinion than Lionel Debroux that I'm just "copying others' opinion with no added value". I built this opinion myself based on what I learned since I joined Omni. Also I'm sharing this opinion on an humoristic tone whereas Lionel is agressive sometimes. ;)

Back on topic, fighting cheaters is a good thing, but locking down is not. There's always a compromise.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: ElementCoder on June 22, 2013, 11:58:34 am
I didn't read all the posts yet, but that indication on the homescreen seems like a sort of step in the right direction to me. Let us do what we want with stuff like ndless and linux, and just have an indication if you have a CAS installed or modified something. Besides all the evil stuff with downgrade protection and such I'm curious to see if there will be other, nice additions to the OS.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 22, 2013, 02:01:42 pm
The only issue is that if Ndless comes out for that OS, then people will most likely try to release a tool to remove the CAS indication in order to fake a non-CAS OS. I wonder if such thing would be allowed on Omni, Cemetech and other sites, since the tool would most likely also let people change the indication to "Maxime's Ugly Calc" or stuff like that?
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: ElementCoder on June 22, 2013, 02:05:27 pm
Yeah, there will be found a way to change that text which is nice for us but again won't make TI happy XD Will those tools fall into the same category as OSLauncher and such then?
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 22, 2013, 02:18:38 pm
I think so. I think TI's concern is just to ensure that people won't cheat in exams and they are out to do everything possible to prevent it.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: TIfanx1999 on June 24, 2013, 08:46:18 am
I think so. I think TI's concern is just to ensure that people won't cheat in exams and they are out to do everything possible to prevent it.
^Pretty much this, and I actually agree with them on trying to prevent people from cheating. Unfortunately for us it ends up blocking ndless as well. :/
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Hayleia on June 24, 2013, 08:49:40 am
Well they should just have given people a proper SDK that allowed them to produce restricted native code, so they can still code games and such but the restrictions would not allow them to deal with PTT or things like that, no ?
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: TIfanx1999 on June 24, 2013, 08:56:40 am
If such an SDK was made it would be even easier for people. They would surely find ways to circumvent such protections. That's why it's difficult to find a solution that satisfies everyone.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Hayleia on June 24, 2013, 09:01:46 am
Well I think that if the restrictions don't allow the program to write to some places, there can't be any harm to protections.
But even if people could do anything, would they do it ? Would they risk their freedom ? For example, Casio coders stopped programming image viewers when Casio warned them so I guess people would be reasonable.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: TIfanx1999 on June 24, 2013, 09:03:25 am
I think the fact that these items already exist answer that question.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Hayleia on June 24, 2013, 09:33:39 am
Yeah, true, sadly.

I got another idea. Couldn't they "save the state" of the calc (not everything of course, but things like "PTT activated" or "CAS activated") before a native program is run, then restore it when the program exits if it was changed. This way, native programs are completely harmless for their interest.
Title: Re: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 24, 2013, 02:33:03 pm
The issue with a proprietary SDK is that knowing TI, it would probably suck and/or cost money.

When they do something for developers it's usually not so reliable (see how slow Lua is compared to ASM/C. If TI really cared about us, Lua would at least be proportional to Grammer speed compared to 84+ ASM.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Levak on June 24, 2013, 04:38:52 pm
When they do something for developers it's usually not see how slow Lua is compared to ASM/C. If TI really cared about us, Lua would at least be proportional to Grammer speed compared to 84+ ASM.
You are comparing a scripting langage with a compiled one.
You are also comparing an interpreted (tokens) langage with a scripted one.
A scripted langage has to parse caracters, not tokens, its obviously slower !


The point you may be able to discuss, on the other hand, is the GUI API of the TI-Nspire Lua API.
There is a big mistake (but not so much possibilities) that the screen is prebuffered and disallows direct modifications. But, there are also plenty of functionnalities (like stroke width) that slow down a normal "stroke" to be drawn.
Another mistake are TI-Images, but we all know that. The fact is, that format is close to the one used by resources (like icons).
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 24, 2013, 05:21:15 pm
In case you didn't know, Grammer is not a compiled language, unlike Axe and C (hence why I didn't use Axe Parser as an example). Granted, Grammer uses tokens rather than individual characters for its commands, but still, there's no reason why Lua should be as slow as it is right now, other than being poorly implemented. My point is that I bet that if someone was as good at Nspire C or ASM as Xeda is with Z80 ASM, the programmer could write a scripted Grammer port or even a 3rd-party Lua port that runs *much* faster than Texas Instruments' implementation.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Levak on June 24, 2013, 05:44:21 pm
In case you didn't know, Grammer is not a compiled language
Where have I said that ?
Quote
Granted, Grammer uses tokens rather than individual characters for its commands
It's exactly what I said.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 24, 2013, 05:49:57 pm
You said that I was comparing a scripted language with a compiled one, so since I was only talking about Lua and Grammer, it seemed to me that you thought that Grammer is compiled.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Levak on June 24, 2013, 06:18:32 pm
You said that I was comparing a scripted language with a compiled one, so since I was only talking about Lua and Grammer, it seemed to me that you thought that Grammer is compiled.
I took your sentence in the way you said it : "Lua" then "C" then "Grammer" then "Lua"
Now, let's paste my answer : "scripted" with a "compiled" then "interpreted" with a "scripted" one.
Comparing Lua to C is not the same as comparing Grammer to ASM. That was my POV.
But of course, the TI-Nspire Lua API can be optimized, I was just worried you were complaining about Lua using a false comparaison.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 24, 2013, 06:21:42 pm
Ah ok I see. But yeah to be honest I just couldn't see any justification to Lua's brutal slow speed. Of course I can understand why Lua would be slower than a tokenized language, but not this much slower.
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: Jim Bauwens on June 25, 2013, 03:44:21 am
Actually, Lua is an interpreted language. If the script isn't already bytecode, it will 'compile' it to Lua bytecode, to then be interpreted by the Lua VM. On the Nspire you can't have scripts that are already bytecode so the conversion happens at launch. That means launch time might slow down, but for the rest of the run time it will be running Lua bytecode (unless you use loadstring).
Title: Re: TI-Nspire OS 3.6 1st official capture: let's fight cheaters!
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 25, 2013, 12:25:28 pm
Do you mean it's kinda tokenizing the program on launch like on the TI-85, 86, 89, 92, 92+ and v200? I noticed that when launching a 86 program for the first time, it takes a long while, then the program shrinks down in size. Editing it detokenizes it I think.