Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Discontinued => Major Community Projects => OTcalc => Topic started by: alberthrocks on August 05, 2010, 09:24:46 pm
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It seems that some people want to build a graphing calculator, so here we go...
A couple of things that will be used:**
- Linux, really powerful stuff there
- Color screen, with decent size
- Lots and lots of buttons!
- Sophisticated FOSS math core (existing ones, and/or ones we create)
- Easy to use GUI (NO geeky stuff, just simple math, apps, prgms, etc.)
- BeagleBoard XM (maybe, maybe not)
And of course, submitted to the testing guys for approval of use. ;)
Of course, this is all just imagination and dreaming (could be reality!!), but it's something worth thinking about.
Feel free to suggest other ideas and such. If anyone is good at hardware/C/ASM, that's a good plus. ;)
** Cookie for those who can find something wrong/ironic in my list!
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oh and lets not forget wifi! ^_^
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and sound!
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and a serious test mode so the testing gurus will accept this calc. ;) (Seriously, it's needed :P)
I'm surprised that no one has found one of the entries ironic, so I'll give a hint: self-competition. ;)
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** Cookie for those who can find something wrong/ironic in my list!
- Lots and lots of buttons!
- Easy to use GUI (NO geeky stuff, just simple math, apps, prgms, etc.)
quite ironic, eh?/me wins the cookies and the game. XD
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what do you call decent? a 30 inch screen would do, right?
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** Cookie for those who can find something wrong/ironic in my list!
- Lots and lots of buttons!
- Easy to use GUI (NO geeky stuff, just simple math, apps, prgms, etc.)
quite ironic, eh?/me wins the cookies and the game. XD
Darn, I lost. :P
Anyway, that's actually incorrect, although it could be true if you looked at it in a different way. ;)
Do you see any names/things that you don't know? Look it up, do a bit of research, and then you'll see the irony.
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hmm.. no idea what a FOSS math core is, and I most definitely don't know what a BeagleBoard XM is either
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what do you call decent? a 30 inch screen would do, right?
Nah - something Nspire-y, but with a fast screen and color. :)
hmm.. no idea what a FOSS math core is, and I most definitely don't know what a BeagleBoard XM is either
FOSS = free and open source
I'll give you a hint: research term #2 (BeagleBoard XM) and you'll find out. ;)
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I actually think it's quite possible. Anyone good with circuit boards? Let's start with the screen, the memory, and the processor, along with simple usb support to upload programs, and a simple bootloader. So far, so good? We can do a simple 2 buttons for an A and B thing, an ON button, and four buttons for arrows.
So, who's good at PCBs and such?
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touchscreen anyone? :D
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- BeagleBoard XM (maybe, maybe not)
ahahahahaha
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what processor? keep it z80 for ASM compatibility or go ARM for more speed and Nspire compatibility?
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There is a *ton* more ASM stuff out there. Definitely z80.
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That would be pretty cool if we did something like this or someone did.
Isn't there something like this over at Cemetech where one of the guys has been modifying TI calculators?
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Yeah, the admin himself :P
KermMartian has been modding calcs for a while now.
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I actually think it's quite possible. Anyone good with circuit boards? Let's start with the screen, the memory, and the processor, along with simple usb support to upload programs, and a simple bootloader. So far, so good? We can do a simple 2 buttons for an A and B thing, an ON button, and four buttons for arrows.
So, who's good at PCBs and such?
Screen is easily done by a company called LiquidWare.
CPU, memory, and USB hosts are already implemented in BeagleBoard.
Linux already has a bootloader, so we don't need to worry about that.
Mr Kerm is a pro at that stuff, and has access to equipment that can do advanced soldering.
Plus, I also have a soldering kit as well. :)
(Or I can take that as a sarcastic reply, and say that we'll never make a calc :P)
touchscreen anyone? :D
Snake_X: Love to, but someone said AP tests hate touchscreen calcs. :(
Otherwise, existing hardware (BeagleTouch) will easily be installed and used.
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- BeagleBoard XM (maybe, maybe not)
ahahahahaha
Know about it? Or just loling at the name? ;)
what processor? keep it z80 for ASM compatibility or go ARM for more speed and Nspire compatibility?
BeagleBoard is 100% ARM. z80 compatibility is an option - maybe emulation?
There is a *ton* more ASM stuff out there. Definitely z80.
Meh.... a Z80 duplicate is pretty sucky - it's a slow CPU by design for just simple stuff.
Maybe Z80 emulation?
That would be pretty cool if we did something like this or someone did.
Isn't there something like this over at Cemetech where one of the guys has been modifying TI calculators?
Yes, Kerm himself. ;) (Admin as well, FYI)
Yeah, the admin himself :P
KermMartian has been modding calcs for a while now.
Yes, we know. ;)
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Ya, I thought that was who it was but I wasn't 100% for sure.
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I know it's not exactly the same, but Ben Reyves over at maxcoderz built himself a Z80 computer. You can check out the thread here:
http://www.junemann.nl/maxcoderz/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2691&hilit=z80+computer
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I know it's not exactly the same, but Ben Reyves over at maxcoderz built himself a Z80 computer. You can check out the thread here:
http://www.junemann.nl/maxcoderz/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2691&hilit=z80+computer
Pretty interesting.... but I still think we should stick to ARM. As the OP himself said, it's pretty weak to do anything really powerful. :) Also, SirCmpwn is already making a wonderful Z80 OS, and there's already a platform to build on - the TI calculator.
What I'd like to do is to design a new OS and calculator. The OS is based off Linux, which is a pretty fun OS to work with.
Actually, I have an idea - there could be 2 branches of this project: good ol' Z80, which if successfully made, would sell for around $40-80, and gain quite a bit from the cheapness; then the ARM based calculator, which is like a Nspire, but with a colorful GUI, better processor, and of course, NOT LOCKED. ;)
The Z80 calc in particular could run KnightOS, so no issues with DMCA or any licensing. If this happened, that would be awesome. :D The ARM calculator is a whole new thing, and is more or less an experiment.
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We should just run TI OSes for the heck of it.
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We should just run TI OSes for the heck of it.
There's plenty of emulators for that. ;)
And besides, you'll get lawsuits for doing that. This is going to be sold - that's even more of a pain to TI, since they currently have a monopoly. Selling another equally, if not better calculator is a smack to TI. (KnightOS and Z80 based calc, that is.)
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i am all for this project, but i am ignorant for about everything this includes.
I am willing to invest in this project though. And will help as much as i can.
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If you do make a calc, be sure to include a sensor pad, just like a laptop ;)
Also, use 48-bit deep color for the screen with 1024x768 resolution ;) (j/k)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truecolor#Beyond_truecolor:_Deep_Color (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truecolor#Beyond_truecolor:_Deep_Color)
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Oh, I would be perfectly fine running KOS on this when it's done.
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I'm game.
But, we will need a knowledge base.
I dunno how to hard mod at all.
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Yeah, same here. Ben Ryves knows how to, and KermMartian, and probably a few others as well.
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how much are we going to spend on each calc to make?
max price for:
screen-
buttons-
shell of calculator-
battery-
back up battery-
hardware and chips-
advertisement-
shipping-
location of selling-
total cost?-
selling price?-
profit?-
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One question:
How the hell are you going to collaborate the build process?
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if anyone will gie me something to read about the chips and stiff for making it that would be great.
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One question:
How the hell are you going to collaborate the build process?
Probably a SVN with all the physical circuit diagrams, and the software.
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Very intresting project, altough it is all just specualting now. Reminds me of the Pandora :). Well anyway altough I am really just starting with all this kind of stuff I do know something about processors and circuits. If anybody is going to take this seriously then you ahve to start to decide what kind of processor 'we' will use. I think a 32 bit processor should be more then enough, 16-bit might do the job as well. Some good 16 bit processors are:
INTEL 8088 @~7.2 MHZ
INTEL 80188 @~18.72 MHZ
Some good 32-bit processors (and not to expensive) are:
INTEL 80386 ranging from 16 to 33 MHZ
INTEL 80486 ranging from 25 to 100 MHZ.
Altough clockspeed isn't everything I suggest at least 50 or more MHZ. Another focus point would be a (G)LCD with a high refresh rate so we can use the processor at full speed when writing to or reading from the screen.
Another Idea I had but which I am not sure about is practical is having several Z80's. The reason to choose Z80's in the first place is because this whole calculator community is familiar with it and we want to develop for this community right? Ease of use is a second.
My last suggestion would be the most updated version of the Z80, the eZ80 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_eZ80). Being 9as wikipedia says) 4x as fast as a regular Z80 it might be enough. Frankly what I need to know is how resource intensive the final OS (linux) will be, based on that decide the processor and based on the processor decide the other hardware.
So what is going to be this things purpose? Is it going to be a gaming device with some math capabilities or is it going to be a hybrid? Shortly siad, what do we want it to be capable of? Maybe everyone should make a wishlist?
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if anyone will gie me something to read about the chips and stiff for making it that would be great.
this is a vast resource about digital electronics. It contains pretty much everything you need to knwo except how to solder. It teaches all the theory. (http://www.asic-world.com/digital/tutorial.html)
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great info, thanks.
To your question. I think the calculator should have enough math for at least algebra 2, if not more.
It would be great if this actually became a selling calculator. one of the things that really sticks out with this is the color. We could have graphing capabilities with each function a different adjustable color. So many things could happen with color for math. We could do alot with it. If we would also be able to run asm programs through it, well that opens up alot for making games and everything.
things i would like to see:
1-10 for imporance for me.
color-7
mouse or keyboard port-5
math-8/9
speed-???
connectivity possibility with ti calcs.-6
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for me it would be:
color - 10 (It's a must have)
mouse-7
keyboard port (from TI's calcs)-3
math-8
speed- 10 (It's a must have)
connectivity possibility with ti calcs - meh, this is software. I have no worries about this being implemented, since we will probably use the same usb port.
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All right.
Let's make this official.
Are we doing this?
Do we have the money and the commitment to do so?
If so, say 'Aye'.
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color - 10/10
mouse- 8/10
keyboard port or mouse port-2/10
math- 9/10
speed- 11/10
Resolution: 3:2 ratio? At least 144x216
You should have more ports in case some break.
Color: 6-bit?
Have at least 256 contrast settings and maybe built-in 4-bit grayscale.
Aye.
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Aye, altough I'd prefer to take a siderole. I am willing to invest a little, it really depends. Also I have alot of other projects running in parallel so well, yea I am not constantly available. We need people like BenRyves and KermMartian though, and we need their time :p
I think we should first maybe produce a dozen devices maybe more, maybe less.
As for importance:
Color: 8
Mouse: 7 (if it's going to be a linux driven system then it might be useful, adding a PS2 port isn't that hard (or we could go usb))
Keyboard: 9 (allows for greater productivity, if used wisely often faster then a mouse and if there is a PS2 port already...)
Math: 6 (important but not a must)
Speed: 10 (speed allows for great creativity AND, you know 1+1=2 faster then the other folks cheating the test)
LCD Resolution: QVGA or VGA (respectively: 320x240, 640x480) I don't really care that much, if it raises the price to much I deem QVGA enough. If we are going to have a (multiple) window based GUI then 640x480 is pretty much a must.
Color Depth: 8 bit (pretty high quality, if it affects speed to much the take 4 bits)
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Keep in mind that Linux is programmed in C, so z80 isn't the best option. (compilers are not very good for z80)
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Aye!
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Aye!
i will invest. (praying that it would be a good investment)
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Keep in mind that Linux is programmed in C, so z80 isn't the best option. (compilers are not very good for z80)
Aah true, forgot about that. Maybe a PIC(http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2607) is more flexible then? MicroChip has some pretty good ones. Maybe we could even have a dedicated GPU? (seeing that Micrcontrollers aren't that expensive). It adds to complexity though. Does anybody know any good 16/32b C compatible microprocessors? I honestly don't altough I bet the intels I referred would work...
Edit: I think the PIC32 (MCU) has all that is needed and it is quite cheap, around $30 if I recall it properly but ocne again I have no clue whether all the C-specific content can run on that...You'd pretty much have to hard-code all C operations and libraries and do-i-know-what into it which is extremely tedious and error prone.
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WOW.... seriously, guys, WOW. I never expected this topic to explode. :o Apparently you guys are serious about creating a new calc.
Looks like it's time for me to draft up a nice little infographic about the building process for electronics (which applies to both companies and communities)! ;)
Note: Just because I started this topic does not mean I have the ideas, nor does it mean that I'm building a device. It's a community effort! :D
As soon as I finish up an essay, I'll work on my infographic, and then upload it for everyone to understand the process.
First off, before I go and start replying to everybody, DO NOT TAKE OUT YOUR MONEY, NOR COMMIT YET!!!!!!
This is a great project, but we're leaping before we're thinking.
We don't even know how it looks like, nor what the final features are, nor the priorities - how in the world do we design a device that we have no idea about?
Now, I'm not trying to dampen the enthusiasm here. It's very possible to create an awesome product from a community, but just jumping to build something without any serious planning first is kinda suicidal. Let's all think it out first, agree on something, follow the standardized steps to build this kind of thing, and then get building. (That's where my infographic comes in - it basically outlines the steps toward product development and such)
Money is kind of an important aspect in product development, and we will need it in the future, but NOT yet.
ALSO - there's 2 sides of this project - a Z80 side, and an ARM side.
Z80, obviously, is going to be a competing calculator against the TI-8x series.
ARM will compete against TI's Nspires. Make sure you're clear when suggesting priorities and features which one you're referring to.
(I might split this topic into 2 if needed)
Whew. Now all that is done, time for some personal replying:
i am all for this project, but i am ignorant for about everything this includes.
I am willing to invest in this project though. And will help as much as i can.
That's great! :) But no money out yet until the project is ready to move forward.
If you do make a calc, be sure to include a sensor pad, just like a laptop ;)
Also, use 48-bit deep color for the screen with 1024x768 resolution ;) (j/k)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truecolor#Beyond_truecolor:_Deep_Color (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truecolor#Beyond_truecolor:_Deep_Color)
Oh noes! How will the Z80 or ARM chips ever handle this? lol :) (I know you're jk)
Most likely for Z80 is a grayscale screen (I don't think Z80 is powerful enough to handle color)
For ARM, definitely a color screen. :)
Oh, I would be perfectly fine running KOS on this when it's done.
That'll be awesome! :D Of course, it might need some modding, since all Z80 hardware are different in some ways.
If this project does go on (the calc building one, that is), you really need to create a serious compatibility layer for TI basic programs
and ASM programs. Don't do it now - focus on the core, guts, and such (kernel, libraries), and then start creating this. (if possible)
I'm game.
But, we will need a knowledge base.
I dunno how to hard mod at all.
There's some people in the TI community who love to hack around with electronics, and know how to design them as well.
A wiki could be helpful in collaborating efforts. (That was aimed more to DJ ;) )
Yeah, same here. Ben Ryves knows how to, and KermMartian, and probably a few others as well.
Yeah, there's quite a few. I know for sure that KermMartian can access some equipment for prototyping (I think).
how much are we going to spend on each calc to make?
max price for:
screen-
buttons-
shell of calculator-
battery-
back up battery-
hardware and chips-
advertisement-
shipping-
location of selling-
total cost?-
selling price?-
profit?-
The overall goal (for the Z80 calc, that is) is to be < TI's price. I'd prefer < $80, for added cheapness. ;)
It's all part of the building process, so it's great that you recognize that. But, we haven't even figured out the design
or the hardware yet, so there's no estimate on pricing until that's done.
For profit, it's a tricky question. We don't want to overprice it like TI - remember, this is a community project, not
some kind of big greedy company project - but we don't want to be penny broke at the end either. I suggest
maybe $10-30 profit per calc? As I've said before, we need a solid plan before deciding.
Advertising is tricky too. Social advertising can be very cheap and successful if done correctly, but that takes a while.
As said before, we need something solid before deciding on these.
One question:
How the hell are you going to collaborate the build process?
That's a good question. I'm not collaborating (look at the top of my reply), the community is.
For hardware specs, etc., I suggest using a wiki for that, as well as a source revision system (SVN, Mercurial, GIT, etc.) for schematics and code.
if anyone will gie me something to read about the chips and stiff for making it that would be great.
No plans yet, but you can google up Zilog and how their chips work, or ARM if you're going for that side of the project.
One question:
How the hell are you going to collaborate the build process?
Probably a SVN with all the physical circuit diagrams, and the software.
Pretty much.
Very intresting project, altough it is all just specualting now. Reminds me of the Pandora :). Well anyway altough I am really just starting with all this kind of stuff I do know something about processors and circuits. If anybody is going to take this seriously then you ahve to start to decide what kind of processor 'we' will use. I think a 32 bit processor should be more then enough, 16-bit might do the job as well. Some good 16 bit processors are:
INTEL 8088 @~7.2 MHZ
INTEL 80188 @~18.72 MHZ
Some good 32-bit processors (and not to expensive) are:
INTEL 80386 ranging from 16 to 33 MHZ
INTEL 80486 ranging from 25 to 100 MHZ.
Altough clockspeed isn't everything I suggest at least 50 or more MHZ. Another focus point would be a (G)LCD with a high refresh rate so we can use the processor at full speed when writing to or reading from the screen.
Another Idea I had but which I am not sure about is practical is having several Z80's. The reason to choose Z80's in the first place is because this whole calculator community is familiar with it and we want to develop for this community right? Ease of use is a second.
My last suggestion would be the most updated version of the Z80, the eZ80 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_eZ80). Being 9as wikipedia says) 4x as fast as a regular Z80 it might be enough. Frankly what I need to know is how resource intensive the final OS (linux) will be, based on that decide the processor and based on the processor decide the other hardware.
So what is going to be this things purpose? Is it going to be a gaming device with some math capabilities or is it going to be a hybrid? Shortly siad, what do we want it to be capable of? Maybe everyone should make a wishlist?
Ahh, the Pandora. It's a real project though, so that's not misty at all. ;)
No Intels - it's a bit hard to get chips from them, and licensing fees may be needed.
A good LCD is a must here, that's for sure.
There's 2 projects for calc building - Z80 and ARM. We do want to keep the Z80 (TI) community alive too! :)
eZ80 sounds good :)
This is strictly a calc project - we're attempting to knock down TI.
Games and other things will be included, but this is mainly math/calc.
if anyone will gie me something to read about the chips and stiff for making it that would be great.
this is a vast resource about digital electronics. It contains pretty much everything you need to knwo except how to solder. It teaches all the theory. (http://www.asic-world.com/digital/tutorial.html)
Definitely something worth looking at.
great info, thanks.
To your question. I think the calculator should have enough math for at least algebra 2, if not more.
It would be great if this actually became a selling calculator. one of the things that really sticks out with this is the color. We could have graphing capabilities with each function a different adjustable color. So many things could happen with color for math. We could do alot with it. If we would also be able to run asm programs through it, well that opens up alot for making games and everything.
things i would like to see:
1-10 for imporance for me.
color-7
mouse or keyboard port-5
math-8/9
speed-???
connectivity possibility with ti calcs.-6
Great ideas! :) Math should be top priority though - 10/10 or higher.
for me it would be:
color - 10 (It's a must have)
mouse-7
keyboard port (from TI's calcs)-3
math-8
speed- 10 (It's a must have)
connectivity possibility with ti calcs - meh, this is software. I have no worries about this being implemented, since we will probably use the same usb port.
Good :) Math should be 10, otherwise it's not a calc.
All right.
Let's make this official.
Are we doing this?
Do we have the money and the commitment to do so?
If so, say 'Aye'.
NO - we're not ready yet! NO INVESTING!
color - 10/10
mouse- 8/10
keyboard port or mouse port-2/10
math- 9/10
speed- 11/10
Resolution: 3:2 ratio? At least 144x216
You should have more ports in case some break.
Color: 6-bit?
Have at least 256 contrast settings and maybe built-in 4-bit grayscale.
Aye.
Kind of confusing - which calc is which?
And NO COMMITMENTS/MONEY!
Aye, altough I'd prefer to take a siderole. I am willing to invest a little, it really depends. Also I have alot of other projects running in parallel so well, yea I am not constantly available. We need people like BenRyves and KermMartian though, and we need their time :p
I think we should first maybe produce a dozen devices maybe more, maybe less.
As for importance:
Color: 8
Mouse: 7 (if it's going to be a linux driven system then it might be useful, adding a PS2 port isn't that hard (or we could go usb))
Keyboard: 9 (allows for greater productivity, if used wisely often faster then a mouse and if there is a PS2 port already...)
Math: 6 (important but not a must)
Speed: 10 (speed allows for great creativity AND, you know 1+1=2 faster then the other folks cheating the test)
LCD Resolution: QVGA or VGA (respectively: 320x240, 640x480) I don't really care that much, if it raises the price to much I deem QVGA enough. If we are going to have a (multiple) window based GUI then 640x480 is pretty much a must.
Color Depth: 8 bit (pretty high quality, if it affects speed to much the take 4 bits)
Math = 10, no exceptions. How else are you going to sell a calculator that doesn't do math? ;)
No money yet, please!
Keep in mind that Linux is programmed in C, so z80 isn't the best option. (compilers are not very good for z80)
Linux and ARM is beautiful. Z80? Not sure about that.
Aye!
NO COMMITMENTS/MONEY!
Aye!
i will invest. (praying that it would be a good investment)
NO COMMITMENTS/MONEY!
Keep in mind that Linux is programmed in C, so z80 isn't the best option. (compilers are not very good for z80)
Aah true, forgot about that. Maybe a PIC is more flexible then? MicroChip has some pretty good ones. Maybe we could even have a dedicated GPU? (seeing that Micrcontrollers aren't that expensive). It adds to complexity though. Does anybody know any good 16/32b C compatible microprocessors? I honestly don't altough I bet the intels I referred would work...
Nah - Z80 is the best option for competing against TI-8x.
ARM can handle Linux for sure. Good example: Androids. ;)
EDIT: So many things - so many ideas! We need a wiki setup, pronto. Set one up on Omnimaga or Cemetech, no wiki hosting sites!
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wow! sounds like we need to establish a business plan for this.
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wow! sounds like we need to establish a business plan for this.
Not yet - still need to think about designs, etc. ;)
THEN the business plan will come.
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sounds good, still trying to figure out all the terms but ok.
i have an idea for advertiing. when we finish, we can send about 10 calcs to each person who invested/ helped. these to be sold at their school for the price that takes to make plus shiping and handling. Then people will at least have heard of them. Or we can let teachers borrow them. that might be a great way to get started.
i know i am jumping ahead but i had the thought so :P
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OK I agree on not betting money into this yet. We need some serious planning, I deem it best for alberthrocks to do that. Just let one person do that, this prevents the project to eventually break down. I hope alberthrocks can confirm he will do that? or maybe he can appoint somebody else, as long as there are no more then 2 people max working on it we should be fine. This person (or persons) could then output their ideas to the community and the community can give feedback and new ideas, once the design and harware design is decided the community can more actively involve into this.
Remember that building this can take years, I estimate it about 1 or 2 before we actually get to a point where there is something sellable available. I do not intend to be pessimistic but I think we should al consider the huge effort and time this takes.
now I will await a confirmation that alberthrocks or somebody else will do the planning, until then 9and after it) we can still spit ideas here...
I pretty much ask everyone to be patient with this, it is quite a undertaking and not something to be taken lightly.
Once somebody has the lead over all this we can then move further along side the directions given by that person.
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@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
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Ok, so I feel like I should put my input into this a bit. Anything I say is not meant to upset anyone, piss anyone off, de-hype someone or anything. I'm just trying to look at this realistically. Sorry if anything sounds harsh, not my intention. I'm just kinda flat saying things.
Couple things:
1. Alberthrocks is right, DO NOT start getting your money out, hopes up, and such. Right now we are just planning and nothing is for sure set (yes, I know Raylin said this was official but things can still happen (no offence Raylin)).
2. Again, alberthrocks is right. Math is a must. If we didn't have math then a lot of operations go out the window, for one, and also we might as well be building a new type of GameBoy.
3. This is my personal opinion but before we start thinking about design I think we need to get the specs figured out and then get the software made and ready to go. That is the first priority I think. Building it will be a lot less stressful then.
4. When it does come time to building this thing, if we get that far, then the shell and buttons could probably be made from a 3D printer at school or something (I'm not saying I can do this, I'm just saying that's a possibility because some technical classes teach about them and are pretty handy).
5. Before we start thinking about making multiples of these we need to first just make a single one. See how much it costs, see what we can change or fix. We needn't worry about making a bunch right now.
6. Once this thing starts to take off and multiple people get involved in planning and such I think there needs to be an online hard drive site that we use where everything is stored. No offence to Omni but a thread isn't a good place to keep everything because it's hard to keep it organized. I also think this should be constrained to members only stuff so nobody from the outside can't interfere and such.
7. Right now I would advise NOT think about mass producing this. We don't know how much this will cost and we don't even know what will happen with these things.
Again, sorry if anything upsets someone. It is not my intention. Just trying to help this succeed :)
@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
I would advise editing that just a bit because it sounds like you're trying to get DJ to do it and I'm fairly sure most or all of us know where he has been standing on admin related stuff. I know you didn't mean it like that but ya, it could be interpreted like that.
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@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
Ok well then i will wait for a wiki. And indeed, math must be 10 not 6 :P, purely to smack TI.
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just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
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just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
tell SirCmpwn that, it's his project.
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just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
Actually, why not make the software open-source. Another smack to TI?
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Ok, so I feel like I should put my input into this a bit. Anything I say is not meant to upset anyone, piss anyone off, de-hype someone or anything. I'm just trying to look at this realistically. Sorry if anything sounds harsh, not my intention. I'm just kinda flat saying things.
Couple things:
1. Alberthrocks is right, DO NOT start getting your money out, hopes up, and such. Right now we are just planning and nothing is for sure set (yes, I know Raylin said this was official but things can still happen (no offence Raylin)).
2. Again, alberthrocks is right. Math is a must. If we didn't have math then a lot of operations go out the window, for one, and also we might as well be building a new type of GameBoy.
3. This is my personal opinion but before we start thinking about design I think we need to get the specs figured out and then get the software made and ready to go. That is the first priority I think. Building it will be a lot less stressful then.
4. When it does come time to building this thing, if we get that far, then the shell and buttons could probably be made from a 3D printer at school or something (I'm not saying I can do this, I'm just saying that's a possibility because some technical classes teach about them and are pretty handy).
5. Before we start thinking about making multiples of these we need to first just make a single one. See how much it costs, see what we can change or fix. We needn't worry about making a bunch right now.
6. Once this thing starts to take off and multiple people get involved in planning and such I think there needs to be an online hard drive site that we use where everything is stored. No offence to Omni but a thread isn't a good place to keep everything because it's hard to keep it organized. I also think this should be constrained to members only stuff so nobody from the outside can't interfere and such.
7. Right now I would advise NOT think about mass producing this. We don't know how much this will cost and we don't even know what will happen with these things.
Again, sorry if anything upsets someone. It is not my intention. Just trying to help this succeed :)
@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
I would advise editing that just a bit because it sounds like you're trying to get DJ to do it and I'm fairly sure most or all of us know where he has been standing on admin related stuff. I know you didn't mean it like that but ya, it could be interpreted like that.
Agreed. THINK before leaping. This can be very successful (I've seen community projects evolve into consumer products), but we need to do some serious thinking before starting anything.
Yeah, the current plan is to host it on Cemetech or Wikidot.
just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
It's copyrighted already. Anything you write, do, etc. is under your ownership. It's likely going to be open source, so that places a big lock on it already.
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Just thought I would point out, Knight OS is being developed by Sir specifically for the 83+ Series. At this point we don't even know what kind of hardware might be used or if running something like Knight OS would even be feasible. I'm also unsure how likely it would be that Knight OS will be copyrighted, more than likely it'll be released as open source under a license.
*edit* wow, super ninja'd.
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i don't mean to be mean, but remember that KnightOS is not "ours". it's Sir's. let him decide what he wants to do with it, and we can focus on our calculator.
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Ok, so I feel like I should put my input into this a bit. Anything I say is not meant to upset anyone, piss anyone off, de-hype someone or anything. I'm just trying to look at this realistically. Sorry if anything sounds harsh, not my intention. I'm just kinda flat saying things.
Couple things:
1. Alberthrocks is right, DO NOT start getting your money out, hopes up, and such. Right now we are just planning and nothing is for sure set (yes, I know Raylin said this was official but things can still happen (no offence Raylin)).
2. Again, alberthrocks is right. Math is a must. If we didn't have math then a lot of operations go out the window, for one, and also we might as well be building a new type of GameBoy.
3. This is my personal opinion but before we start thinking about design I think we need to get the specs figured out and then get the software made and ready to go. That is the first priority I think. Building it will be a lot less stressful then.
4. When it does come time to building this thing, if we get that far, then the shell and buttons could probably be made from a 3D printer at school or something (I'm not saying I can do this, I'm just saying that's a possibility because some technical classes teach about them and are pretty handy).
5. Before we start thinking about making multiples of these we need to first just make a single one. See how much it costs, see what we can change or fix. We needn't worry about making a bunch right now.
6. Once this thing starts to take off and multiple people get involved in planning and such I think there needs to be an online hard drive site that we use where everything is stored. No offence to Omni but a thread isn't a good place to keep everything because it's hard to keep it organized. I also think this should be constrained to members only stuff so nobody from the outside can't interfere and such.
7. Right now I would advise NOT think about mass producing this. We don't know how much this will cost and we don't even know what will happen with these things.
Again, sorry if anything upsets someone. It is not my intention. Just trying to help this succeed :)
@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
I would advise editing that just a bit because it sounds like you're trying to get DJ to do it and I'm fairly sure most or all of us know where he has been standing on admin related stuff. I know you didn't mean it like that but ya, it could be interpreted like that.
Agreed. THINK before leaping. This can be very successful (I've seen community projects evolve into consumer products), but we need to do some serious thinking before starting anything.
Yeah, the current plan is to host it on Cemetech or Wikidot.
just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
It's copyrighted already. Anything you write, do, etc. is under your ownership. It's likely going to be open source, so that places a big lock on it already.
Well I didn't mean something like a Wiki or something. I meant an actual site that acts as a hard drive. That way only the people working on the project have access to it and its components.
As for the copyright thing I think he meant like an official patent
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Just thought I would point out, Knight OS is being developed by Sir specifically for the 83+ Series. At this point we don't even know what kind of hardware might be used or if running something like Knight OS would even be feasible. I'm also unsure how likely it would be that Knight OS will be copyrighted, more than likely it'll be released as open source under a license.
*edit* wow, super ninja'd.
It's copyrighted from the start, so no worries.
Also, it's 100% Z80, so he can alter it to run on the new hardware.
Open source != not copyrighted. If I released some code as GPL, I still have rights to it, and can revoke the license at any time.
i don't mean to be mean, but remember that KnightOS is not "ours". it's Sir's. let him decide what he wants to do with it, and we can focus on our calculator.
Obviously. He wrote the code, he gets to decide.
Ok, so I feel like I should put my input into this a bit. Anything I say is not meant to upset anyone, piss anyone off, de-hype someone or anything. I'm just trying to look at this realistically. Sorry if anything sounds harsh, not my intention. I'm just kinda flat saying things.
Couple things:
1. Alberthrocks is right, DO NOT start getting your money out, hopes up, and such. Right now we are just planning and nothing is for sure set (yes, I know Raylin said this was official but things can still happen (no offence Raylin)).
2. Again, alberthrocks is right. Math is a must. If we didn't have math then a lot of operations go out the window, for one, and also we might as well be building a new type of GameBoy.
3. This is my personal opinion but before we start thinking about design I think we need to get the specs figured out and then get the software made and ready to go. That is the first priority I think. Building it will be a lot less stressful then.
4. When it does come time to building this thing, if we get that far, then the shell and buttons could probably be made from a 3D printer at school or something (I'm not saying I can do this, I'm just saying that's a possibility because some technical classes teach about them and are pretty handy).
5. Before we start thinking about making multiples of these we need to first just make a single one. See how much it costs, see what we can change or fix. We needn't worry about making a bunch right now.
6. Once this thing starts to take off and multiple people get involved in planning and such I think there needs to be an online hard drive site that we use where everything is stored. No offence to Omni but a thread isn't a good place to keep everything because it's hard to keep it organized. I also think this should be constrained to members only stuff so nobody from the outside can't interfere and such.
7. Right now I would advise NOT think about mass producing this. We don't know how much this will cost and we don't even know what will happen with these things.
Again, sorry if anything upsets someone. It is not my intention. Just trying to help this succeed :)
@happybobjr: nah, too expensive. Teacher idea is OK.
10 calcs = 10 X $80 ish = $800. Pretty big... :P
@matthias1992: I'm busy all the time. :P This is a community project - the wiki will help us organize ideas.
We'll all agree on a set spec, and such. I and many others can help the planning and such stay on track.
@everyone else:
WE NEED A WIKI FAST! Someone wake DJ up or something... ;)
You are correct - it can take a while to do such a thing. This isn't small - this is some serious work.
I would advise editing that just a bit because it sounds like you're trying to get DJ to do it and I'm fairly sure most or all of us know where he has been standing on admin related stuff. I know you didn't mean it like that but ya, it could be interpreted like that.
Agreed. THINK before leaping. This can be very successful (I've seen community projects evolve into consumer products), but we need to do some serious thinking before starting anything.
Yeah, the current plan is to host it on Cemetech or Wikidot.
just real quick, when we get knight os finished, copyright it. just a thought.
It's copyrighted already. Anything you write, do, etc. is under your ownership. It's likely going to be open source, so that places a big lock on it already.
Well I didn't mean something like a Wiki or something. I meant an actual site that acts as a hard drive. That way only the people working on the project have access to it and its components.
As for the copyright thing I think he meant like an official patent
SVN, Mercurial, GIT, and others act as a code collaboration server, and as a backup.
Patents? I hate patents. And patents are only for ideas, not OSes. Copyright is strong enough.
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sry, I didn't mean to harsh everyones mellow.
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OK, what should be the name of our project?
Something cool, nothing hard to pronounce. (Basically, a code name)
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project beat ti up lol jk.
umm how about the omnimacalc. or unicalc. or maybe sheep biter (eargon reference :P)
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Project Alpha Beta Nider :P
Nah, um. Let's see. Project Out-Do TI? Project Foxtrot? If Omnicalc wasn't already an app that would be perfect :P
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Project Alpha Beta Nider :P
Nah, um. Let's see. Project Out-Do TI? Project Foxtrot? If Omnicalc wasn't already an app that would be perfect :P
thats why i put omnimacalc and not omnicalc :P
i got one. calculator: inspiration :P
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okay, so we have a question. Have two sites: OTz80, and OTarm, or one site, OT, and that be for both.
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i think one site with 2 sections. king graphmastur
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One site. It would probably be easier to keep track of.
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Just OT.
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i think one site with 2 sections. (self proclaimed but still true) king graphmaster, lord of this land
btw, you can cut "lord of this land". king graphmastur is enough prince happybobjr. (The u is important, and the cake is a lie)
Now then we have decided on otcalc.wikidot.com and the code name being project blue lobster. The site is private for now.
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are you going to send us pms? so we can join?
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No worries - this is a community project - EVERYBODY can participate.
He left a while ago, and he probably didn't want this to get sabotaged in any way.
We'll probably set it up ASAP, and once done, open it to the public :)
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what does OT stand for? What did I miss?
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Out-do Ti
This seems like a cool project btw. But I'm a total electronics noob, so I couldn't help much :/
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ok ty
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Actually, it stands for OmniTech, but yeah, Out-do Ti could work jk.
I'm busy this evening, and the site is private. I'll be working with alberthrocks first, though.
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this is the kind of thing that needs to be taught at high school
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How to make a calculator 101? Maybe.
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i was thinking of working with chips and everything
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I learned some in AP Physics. Plus some schools have robotics classes and such that you would learn this stuff in.
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The true profit on this project shall not come from making excessive amounts money, but in making enough for the production to continue, Learning together as friends, providing kids with a cheaper alternate to ti calculators, and the fun of slapping ti :)
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Agreed, I would love a class like this at my school (Actually, I might be doing something similar, Engineering classes :D)
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project lead the way??? or intro to engineering and designs??
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the latter. My class this year is "Introduction to Technology and Engineering" It's a four year program, Each year I have to do one of the classes (the next one I mean) or... idk I think something bad happens... *shrug*
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The same thing happens when you divide by zero.
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You know, using TI's circuit design factory wouldn't be a bad idea, IMO. they do great work with circuit boards, and the TI calculator is just a branch of their company. The majority of their business is in making PCBs and ICs for other companies. I don't think we'd be able to make enough, or high quality enough PCBs for this without an outside company, plus they can make it super cheap. :D They also already have an awesome ARM processor going in the OMAP series, among others.
Don't hate me for suggesting using TI.
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You know, using TI's circuit design factory wouldn't be a bad idea, IMO. they do great work with circuit boards, and the TI calculator is just a branch of their company. The majority of their business is in making PCBs and ICs for other companies. I don't think we'd be able to make enough, or high quality enough PCBs for this without an outside company, plus they can make it super cheap. :D They also already have an awesome ARM processor going in the OMAP series, among others.
Don't hate me for suggesting using TI.
i find it fitting. Don't see why we shouldn't
although there might be some problems with ti about it :P
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Nah, they won't care in that department. I'm guessing that the Manufacturing and Calculator areas don't mingle much, and the manufacturing also won't ask too many questions either. I'm guessing they won't ask too many question on what you're building.
I also suggest learning from the troubles of the Pandora story, and not to make the same mistakes. It will be a similar undertaking.
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what went wrong with pandora? i thought it was going great?
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I would like to know as well. But I am guessing that they starting building them, but the manufactuer stopped making parts for them for some reason. But just guessing
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Nothing went wrong, but they had a lot of trouble along the way.
They are building them steadily right now, at around 100 per week (i think)
I'm just saying we avoid some of the troubles they hit along the way.
Edit: for instance, they had many troubles with lack of communication with the chinese company for the cases, and there were many issues with the shipping companies, warped boards and >1000 qty shipments left in parking lots 3 blocks from the actual delivery location, to list a few.
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What is this Pandora project I keep hearing about?
Also, I just realized something. We have said this calculator needs to do math but it also needs to be able to graph too.
With the idea about using a TI product, who knows. Maybe we could show them how to use there technology correctly :P
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although there might be some problems with ti about it
'
i extremely doubt TI will have problems with us forking over cash for their profit. a consumer would have to do something pretty bad to be shunned from the business of a corporation..
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http://www.openpandora.org/
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so how exactly are we going to start this?
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We should get KermM to help with us maybe. Since he has an EE major I think. But I think first things first, decide on the chips to use.
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I highly suggest figuring out exactly what the specifications are in terms of processors, chip sets, etc. and get the software written first.
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Imo, the case should be last. Spiff it up when it is done. In the opening states, it can look like crap :P
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We should get KermM to help with us maybe. Since he has an EE major I think. But I think first things first, decide on the chips to use.
For the Z80 project, definitely use an eZ80 :)
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I wonder if we could use existing z80 code for the ez80, like no porting over (besides recompiling it... I think *shrug*)
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Imo, the case should be last. Spiff it up when it is done. In the opening states, it can look like crap :P
To be perfectly frank, the case basically has to come last. Yes, we can have designs but the building needs to be last because we have to fit the design to the insides. If we build first then we limit what we can use.
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Probably not, since a bunch of the equivalents right now only work with the calc, and it's ports.
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I wonder if we could use existing z80 code for the ez80, like no porting over (besides recompiling it... I think *shrug*)
It is completely backwards compatible, so we can use existing z80 code (but we would still have to port it to not use or reference TI-OS at all, of course)
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Ahh, forgot about that. Good point.
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Well, if it's a real z80, then we should, maybe with really minor changes.
remember though, all of the asm written will be for a monochrome 96x64 (probably wrong :P) resolution and we will want to rewrite most stuff for the better specs. ;) direct portability would be nice, of course.
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I don't think we should make the calc with portability in mind. It would be much better on the new calc, anyway.
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Well, if it's a real z80, then we should, maybe with really minor changes.
remember though, all of the asm written will be for a monochrome 96x64 (probably wrong :P) resolution and we will want to rewrite most stuff for the better specs. ;) direct portability would be nice, of course.
Someone could possibly create a program or something that emulates the specs of a TI-8x calculator.
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Well, if it's a real z80, then we should, maybe with really minor changes.
remember though, all of the asm written will be for a monochrome 96x64 (probably wrong :P) resolution and we will want to rewrite most stuff for the better specs. ;) direct portability would be nice, of course.
It's actually an upgraded Z80 with awesome new features (and much faster speed). Like, it supports 24-bit memory addresses (it can access 16MB of memory without any bank switching) Of course, there is a Z80 mode that has full compatibility (with 16-bit addresses and such). I'm reading documentation right now, and it seems pretty nice.
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True. A full color screen would be amazing. Even if its... idk like 15 colors *shrug* 255 would be better, but probably a lot more than its worth.
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Easy (hardware-wise, not saying anything about writing the code), for ARM anyways. I'm not sure about the z80, but underclocking could work pretty well.
Edit:ninja'd
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Color I think shouldn't be a huge worry right now. And if we do manage color then we really don't need that much. The more color there is the more complicated it will get. 4 bit color is more than enough, I think.
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Black, red, blue, green?
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Black, red, blue, green?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/4_bit.png)
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idk why, but it looks like that's more than 4 colors. Besides that, that would be really good. What's the resolution?
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Color I think shouldn't be a huge worry right now. And if we do manage color then we really don't need that much. The more color there is the more complicated it will get. 4 bit color is more than enough, I think.
4 bit color
not 4 colors
this is 2bit color
= 4 colors.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/2_bit.PNG)
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4 bit color is 16 colors. What you were saying with 256 colors is 8 bit color.
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Woops, my brain doesn't seem to be working correctly today x.x Sorry.
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4 bit color is 16 colors. What you were saying with 256 colors is 8 bit color.
8 bit might be overdoing it for what we need
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Ya, that's why I was saying 4 bit is more than enough, I think.
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Oh yeah, I do like 4 bit btw :D
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4 bit means 2^4 colors, or 16 colors. It was a standard for old computers, and viruses for windows sometimes force it into 4-bit color.
Color will really depend on the screen you choose, and the addressing capabilities of the processor to control it. high color depth on a low-res screen isn't hard for the processor, providing the screen does all the work (think like the nspire, with 16-level greyscale)
Color will be a design worry, not a programming worry, and not necessarily something we need to worry about yet.
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Grayscale is definitely on the list for OTZ80 todo. (Grayscale = 4 bit color / 16 levels, like Nspire)
100% pretty color is on the list for OTARM though. ;)
I'm hoping we can get TI backward compatibility, since I don't exactly want to leave years of work behind.
BTW, if you are suggesting software stuff, redirect them to SirCmpwn. His OS, KnightOS, is going to be on this calc. ;)
EDIT: For more info on the eZ80, lookie here: http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Zilog/eZ80Acclaim/eZ80Acclaim.html
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I was just thinking, how hard will it be to port KnightOS to ARM? The hardware would obviously be very different, but the kernel could be portable, couldn't it? I don't know much in this area.
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@willrandship: oh no, we won't be doing that. Linux will be placed on the ARM based calc.
From there, we program in C, C++, etc. (or ASM for diehards) upwards.
Z80 asm is pretty much different than ARM asm, but I'm not too sure. Ask anyone who has programmed stuff for the Nspire. They can tell you. :)
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Grayscale is definitely on the list for OTZ80 todo. (Grayscale = 4 bit color / 16 levels, like Nspire)
100% pretty color is on the list for OTARM though. ;)
I'm hoping we can get TI backward compatibility, since I don't exactly want to leave years of work behind.
BTW, if you are suggesting software stuff, redirect them to SirCmpwn. His OS, KnightOS, is going to be on this calc. ;)
EDIT: For more info on the eZ80, lookie here: http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Zilog/eZ80Acclaim/eZ80Acclaim.html
16-level grayscale is not 4 bit color. It is 8 bit grayscale. Sorry, but there is a difference.
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Grayscale is definitely on the list for OTZ80 todo. (Grayscale = 4 bit color / 16 levels, like Nspire)
100% pretty color is on the list for OTARM though. ;)
I'm hoping we can get TI backward compatibility, since I don't exactly want to leave years of work behind.
BTW, if you are suggesting software stuff, redirect them to SirCmpwn. His OS, KnightOS, is going to be on this calc. ;)
EDIT: For more info on the eZ80, lookie here: http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Zilog/eZ80Acclaim/eZ80Acclaim.html
16-level grayscale is not 4 bit color. It is 8 bit grayscale. Sorry, but there is a difference.
4 bit greyscale? I vote for color versus greyscale btw :D
Edit: Haha, I'm a ninja :)
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Grayscale is definitely on the list for OTZ80 todo. (Grayscale = 4 bit color / 16 levels, like Nspire)
100% pretty color is on the list for OTARM though. ;)
I'm hoping we can get TI backward compatibility, since I don't exactly want to leave years of work behind.
BTW, if you are suggesting software stuff, redirect them to SirCmpwn. His OS, KnightOS, is going to be on this calc. ;)
EDIT: For more info on the eZ80, lookie here: http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Zilog/eZ80Acclaim/eZ80Acclaim.html
16-level grayscale is not 4 bit color. It is 8 bit grayscale. Sorry, but there is a difference.
Actually, it is 4-bit grayscale ;)
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I'm confused with all of these different terms and such. :P
But yeah, just grayscale. :)
Color is almost impossible with the Z80, since it's kind of slow.
(Actually, there is an OS with color... but it really looks ugly. Better to have full color than partial.)
eZ80 chips cost around $7-$18, depending on the type needed. (Look down for the links)
http://digikey.com/PTM/PTMPartList.page?site=us&lang=en&ptm=6200&WT.z_ptm_structured=Buy%20Now%20Button
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Grayscale is definitely on the list for OTZ80 todo. (Grayscale = 4 bit color / 16 levels, like Nspire)
100% pretty color is on the list for OTARM though. ;)
I'm hoping we can get TI backward compatibility, since I don't exactly want to leave years of work behind.
BTW, if you are suggesting software stuff, redirect them to SirCmpwn. His OS, KnightOS, is going to be on this calc. ;)
EDIT: For more info on the eZ80, lookie here: http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/tod/Zilog/eZ80Acclaim/eZ80Acclaim.html
16-level grayscale is not 4 bit color. It is 8 bit grayscale. Sorry, but there is a difference.
Actually, it is 4-bit grayscale ;)
Really? Sorry, Wikipedia is just saying it is 8 bit grayscale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayscale).
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" show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades, "
"with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities "
;)
Besides that, I think color would be for the ARM if not both.
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" show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades, "
"with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities "
;)
Besides that, I think color would be for the ARM if not both.
Ah ok, haha I didn't actually read it all I just looked at the boldfaced words on the side :P
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just a thought, maybe we could have a small back-light that you can turn off and on, i hate being in a classroom where i have trouble seeing my screen
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" show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades, "
"with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities "
;)
Besides that, I think color would be for the ARM if not both.
Congratulations, you just took two phrases completely out of context :P
"Some early grayscale monitors can only show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades"
"but today grayscale images (as photographs) intended for visual display (both on screen and printed) are commonly stored with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities (i.e., shades of gray) to be recorded, typically on a non-linear scale."
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just a thought, maybe we could have a small back-light that you can turn off and on, i hate being in a classroom where i have trouble seeing my screen
I like the idea. But that will probably be a much later addition because it's not a necessity.
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" show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades, "
"with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities "
;)
Besides that, I think color would be for the ARM if not both.
Congratulations, you just took two phrases completely out of context :P
"Some early grayscale monitors can only show up to sixteen (4-bit) different shades"
"but today grayscale images (as photographs) intended for visual display (both on screen and printed) are commonly stored with 8 bits per sampled pixel, which allows 256 different intensities (i.e., shades of gray) to be recorded, typically on a non-linear scale."
Lol, sorry I was just picking out specific instances that we were talking about.
just a thought, maybe we could have a small back-light that you can turn off and on, i hate being in a classroom where i have trouble seeing my screen
I like the idea. But that will probably be a much later addition because it's not a necessity.
I also like this idea. Its annoying when we are going home, and its dark outside and my mom won't let me turn on one of the lights in the car. I can't program in the dark sadly :( (as in testing it for correct outputs and such)
Edit: woah, that sentance sucked, fixing it.
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possibly have like a small switch on the back, i don't think one should be controlled through the calc, that would require you seeing it for you to see ;P
also how would you create even lighting through out?
not like we need one to program ti-basic on our 83 + series, but testing it. :P (i can program ti-basic with my eyes cosed :P)
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Maybe read how the Gameboy SP did it *shrug* My pocket PC also handles it quite nicely. I agree though about it being manual, and not controlled by the OS (it crashes, and leaves your light on D:)
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Interesting idea - not sure how to implement though. Maybe a regular backlight? Or LED bars?
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Maybe read how the Gameboy SP did it *shrug* My pocket PC also handles it quite nicely. I agree though about it being manual, and not controlled by the OS (it crashes, and leaves your light on D:)
oh, true, that would be terrifying
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since i'm assuming we don't want to use the same keyboard layout as the TI84 series, and QWERTY is out of the question thanks to the people who run the SAT's, will there be any compatibility issues between KnightOS' key recognition and a different keyboard? or is this a simple fix by wiring the correct buttons to the correct ports?
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It wouldn't be too terribly hard (either one imo) You might have to port a few programs to the new one if you go by software instead of hardware.
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I definetely like the backlight idea, I am unsure about having the backlight powered by the "regular" batteries because the'll be drained quickly. i think you'd better put the switch on the side but that is a worry for later. Which brings me to a next (random) feature I'd like to see, battery status!
I just glanced over the eZ80 documentation and I think it is absolutely perfect. I would personally like to pick up >20Mhz, possibly the 50mhz. Since the most expensive 50Mhz eZ80 is $18.4 and the cheapest: $8.6. The golden midway is $12.6
This is all very afforable! I think of all components the screen, case and proccesor are going to be the most expensive. I estimate/like to see the eZ80 version going for sale at about $70 or maybe less if we manafacture in china :P
Off course this is all just specualting.
Here is the eZ80 (multiple versions):http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Selection&c=39&f=356&ptm=6200&site=us&lang=en
and documentation:http://www.zilog.com/docs/ez80/ps0066.pdf
edit:
Interesting idea - not sure how to implement though. Maybe a regular backlight? Or LED bars?
Some LCD's already have a backlight integrated. I'd definetely take one of these as they tend to be fast as well, and switching the backlight is quite easy (just a signal/flag).
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I'm thinking that if we're really making something radically different than TI, we could be able to write a new kernel. KnightOS is based around TI's hardware, and it might not be the best choice. I'm sure whatever we make would have a completely different memory layout, plus the added power of an eZ80 could make a better OS possible. Not to bash Sircmpwn or anything, but I think we can do much better when not limited to the TI-83+ hardware.
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I'm thinking that if we're really making something radically different than TI, we could be able to write a new kernel. KnightOS is based around TI's hardware, and it might not be the best choice. I'm sure whatever we make would have a completely different memory layout, plus the added power of an eZ80 could make a better OS possible. Not to bash Sircmpwn or anything, but I think we can do much better when not limited to the TI-83+ hardware.
I couldn't agree with you more. We could however use KOS as a reference...
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@calc84maniac: I don't know.... I think it really isn't too hard to port such an OS. Who would write a new OS though?
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Me! If I wasn't already writing one for a Spartan 3e FPGA...
plus I am not a z80 hero, but if asked I'd definetely take on the challenge.
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I'm sure someone will. If not someone, then a group of people can do it or something.
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My suggestion is to ask SirCmpwn what he thinks. If he thinks his OS will work, then we'll use it. Otherwise, we definitely need a smart person/smart group
to design a new OS. OS designing is a lot harder than it looks, especially for the kernel part, so beware. :)
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I would be happy to participate.
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Me too but once again I am not that good at z80 assembly. There is no lack of will only lack of know-how.
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I would be happy to participate.
Great! :) Hopefully you know how to design kernels and such... ;)
For anyone, everyone in general:
OTARM will be using BeagleBoard xM, which looks like this:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4068/4644432552_2fb4280336.jpg)
Side view:
(http://beagle.s3.amazonaws.com/graphics/Beagle_Board_Flyer_5-21-10_ver2_img_1.jpg)
Drooling? ;) Interesting, isn't it? Of course, you won't see every single feature in the final one, but expect to see most interesting stuff. ;)
Cost: $179 (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?PName?Name=296-25798-ND&Site=US&Lang=EN)
OTZ80 will also need a dev kit for a base to work on.
You can see them here: http://digikey.com/PTM/PTMPartList.page?site=us&lang=en&ptm=6200&WT.z_ptm_structured=Buy%20Now%20Button
Kits range around $99 to $400. (Chip is MUCH cheaper though. Dev kits are always expensive, and they don't represent the final product's price.)
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Backlight: letter to nintendo.. yes or no? haven't sent yet
did code for size reduction
Hello, my name is James and a group of my friends are developing a calculator the succeeds in all spots others have failed. While brainstorming I cam up with an idea for a back-light for the calculator. (specifically one that is manually turned on and off)
One of the members of our group had the brilliant idea of using a back-light like your Gameboy Advance SP (big fan by the way). Doing a little research got me nowhere so I came here to ask about how you made your back-light.
Could you inform us on the specifics of how the back light is made, or where to buy something similar.
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umm... imo no. Someone suggested getting one with a backlight built in, which seems like a much better plan.
On a completly unrelated note: Page 11!
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They would probably say no. Nintendo's a lot more eviler than TI. :P (Especially with the Wii)
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ok.. but the sp is old :P
now for the wi-fi and internet browser >:D
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I'd like to suggest a micro SD or an SD card slot for the EZ80, and perhaps an Micro USB as well. Personally, I think an OS written to take advantage of the EZ80 would fare much better than porting Knight OS. I also think having 256 colors and at least a 320X240 resolution would be nice. On an unrelated note, this topic has really exploded hasn't it?
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Quite. I'm setting up the wiki as fast as I can.
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I'd like to suggest a micro SD or an SD card slot for the EZ80, and perhaps an Micro USB as well. Personally, I think an OS written to take advantage of the EZ80 would fare much better than porting Knight OS. I also think having 256 colors and at least a 320X240 resolution would be nice. On an unrelated note, this topic has really exploded hasn't it?
because its a good idea :D
i refrsh that page every 10 min
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Yes indeed. :P
I'd like to keep this colorless. It's unlikely that the Z80 could handle intense colors. Also, this is competing against the TI-8x, which has a colorless screen, making it more familiar to the buyer.
Don't worry - the ARM calc will definitely have a full color screen :)
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Hmm I am a little worried about the devboards, is that just for testing or is that actually going to be in the calc cause $179 is a little expensive don't you think, and that's even without the case, buttons and LCD! I don't think there is a market for $250+ calcs...
Not to offend but I am doubting if that will work...I was thinking about manually made PCB's altough it takes far more time, it is far less expensive. maybe we could clone a Begle..ehr something mX?
Edit: I think the eZ80 could handle colors but we want this to be the cheap alternative to the ARM right? so I think greyscale would be better, 16 lvl or more would be fine
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This looks like a great project. I can't wait to see the results.
This topic has really exploded-158 posts in less than 24 hours.
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Dev boards are always high priced, since companies want some profit for giving people tools to create products.
Of course, the FINAL product will be way cheaper.
There were actually $1000+ dev boards for nearly the same stuff as the BeagleBoard, but the product itself is much cheaper.
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i think 256 color spectrum is unnecessary. remember, this is just a calculator. what would you use 256 different colors for? i'm thinking that using a byte, you can use 4 bits for intensity and the other 4 bits for color specification. that way you get 16 colors at 16 different shadings.
i really don't have any expertise in this field though, so maybe what i just said isn't possible. regardless, i'm thinking 8 or 16 colors would work.
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i think 256 color spectrum is unnecessary. remember, this is just a calculator. what would you use 256 different colors for? i'm thinking that using a byte, you can use 4 bits for intensity and the other 4 bits for color specification. that way you get 16 colors at 16 different shadings.
i really don't have any expertise in this field though, so maybe what i just said isn't possible. regardless, i'm thinking 8 or 16 colors would work.
That is 256 colors, just so you know ;)
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Oh, I almost forgot. I really like the idea of having some sort of backlight with different settings as well.
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i think 256 color spectrum is unnecessary. remember, this is just a calculator. what would you use 256 different colors for? i'm thinking that using a byte, you can use 4 bits for intensity and the other 4 bits for color specification. that way you get 16 colors at 16 different shadings.
i really don't have any expertise in this field though, so maybe what i just said isn't possible. regardless, i'm thinking 8 or 16 colors would work.
That is 256 colors, just so you know ;)
only 16 unique ;)
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Would the colors be palette-based, like on the NES, or do you mean 16 possible colors total? That said, the project seems interesting. I will probably read through the topic later.
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i think 256 color spectrum is unnecessary. remember, this is just a calculator. what would you use 256 different colors for? i'm thinking that using a byte, you can use 4 bits for intensity and the other 4 bits for color specification. that way you get 16 colors at 16 different shadings.
i really don't have any expertise in this field though, so maybe what i just said isn't possible. regardless, i'm thinking 8 or 16 colors would work.
That is 256 colors, just so you know ;)
only 16 unique ;)
I think you are thinking of hues.
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I am a bit confused what you mean
Someone will probably have to explain this in more details at one point, probably on the Wiki site if created
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joysticks?
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I think we'll want something with lower specs than the beagleboard-I just took a look at the specs. Keep in mind this is a calculator.
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this is a hue. imagine this is a light blue. it is a different color, but not a different hue than the previous text.
this is an entirely different hue. this dark red is not a different hue than the previous text, but it is a different color because of its darker nature. this change in darkness is called "value"
this is a different hue and a different color.
i *think* i have it right.
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I would like to help as well. But...meh
There is no lack of will only lack of know-how.
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Mockup of OTARM:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1016340/PublicPictures/OTARMMockup.png)
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specualte-if, but cool anyways
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um...random suggestion...but....
rechargeable lithium battery?
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um...random suggestion...but....
rechargeable lithium battery?
probably but, maybe rechargeable AA bateries?
Color: Red + Yellow + Blue,,,
so many colors avalible.
Red+blue=purple
red + Yellow = orange.
and so on.
could we do a grayscale type thing with a 4 bit color system.
SO we could have a pattern of quick switching between blue and yellow so it looks green?
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We could do it like the nspire: AA batteries and an optional rechargeable. There should also be an option to recharge AAs by plugging the thing in to a usb port.
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Yeah, regular AAs and chargeable AAs via USB port. (?? dock ??)
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Yeah, and a wireless recharge dock.
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No, no wireless inside dock - it's better inside the calc. :)
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@alberth That looks like something more beagle-boardish. Looks good, but It'll be a little too fancy for the z80 one.
Beagleboard isn't a great choice for making products. It's not the right shape (i'm assuming rectangular, or are we going 92-esque?) and it's kind of pricey. If we actually plan to sell these then we'll want to make our own board.
Maybe we could design a PCB that works for both models, then populate them differently for ARM and z80. That would save some money, but we'd need to find z80 and arm processors that are the same size :p
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I thunk different board designs are a must. What about like the sp with the hinged screen?
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@alberth That looks like something more beagle-boardish. Looks good, but It'll be a little too fancy for the z80 one.
Beagleboard isn't a great choice for making products. It's not the right shape (i'm assuming rectangular, or are we going 92-esque?) and it's kind of pricey. If we actually plan to sell these then we'll want to make our own board.
Maybe we could design a PCB that works for both models, then populate them differently for ARM and z80. That would save some money, but we'd need to find z80 and arm processors that are the same size :p
This is only for the OTARM, not Z80.
BeagleBoard is a dev board. You basically do some coding/soldering/building there, and when you're done with that, you get a schematic, take any unnecessary parts off, and create a production board that will actually be used in the calc. Basically, BeagleBoard != OTARM. ;)
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I thunk different board designs are a must. What about like the sp with the hinged screen?
I think hinged screens might be bad, since tests may not like that. (They might want to see the screen at all times)
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I thunk different board designs are a must. What about like the sp with the hinged screen?
I think hinged screens might be bad, since tests may not like that. (They might want to see the screen at all times)
hinged not good. Might be to easy to break
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um...random suggestion...but....
rechargeable lithium battery?
and
We could do it like the nspire: AA batteries and an optional rechargeable. There should also be an option to recharge AAs by plugging the thing in to a usb port.
I love this idea. I thought about it earlier, but forgot to mention it. :)
*Edit* Hinged screen would be cool too (for the ARM maybe?) I don't know how easy it would be to implement or what the testing board would think about it, but it is a cool design idea.
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Wow, I haven't read the article yet, but look at this:
http://hackaday.com/2010/08/06/open-graphing-calculator-beagleboard-r/
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Wow, impressive. Proof that FOSS things are sometimes better than their proprietary counterparts.
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Big thanks to DJ for setting up all the forums and sub-forums. There are subforums for the hardware, software and progress for both the ARM and Z80 processors, along with a generic sub-forum for things like this thread.
Thank you, DJ.
As for the wikidot site, it is now open. Access it at otcalc.wikidot.com. Note: Development on the site is still in progress. The discussion forums for otcalc on omnimaga are for main discussion, while this wiki is here to collectively store files, diagrams, suggestions and information pertaining to the calculator. All wikidot pages should be editable by members, and can be discussed by clicking the "discuss" button at the bottom. Oh, and please, don't mess with editing the pages right now, as they are not complete. Also, the them is just a basic them I chose to work with. It is subject to change.
Again, Thanks DJ.
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No problem. (On an off-topic side note I am trying to think of a possible division for the Axe sub-forum but can't think of any. Any ideas? :P)
I'll check the site now :)
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Woah.
As for KOS on the z80 version, I have the final say about the license and the copyright. I'm still deciding how to approach this. Building the firmware for a commercial product could be legally tricky, especially seeing as I'm underage. Never fear, OTz80 will run KnightOS. Whether it will be open source, copyrighted, ect, is up for discussion. I would absolutely not allow KOS to be run on it, however, if users did not have the option of installing their own firmware. I may also make a specific version of KnightOS just for OTz80.
Additionally, there are requirements for the ACT and SAT that you guys should consider. This calculator should not have a QWERTY keyboard, or it cannot be used in the ACT/SAT. There are also limits on screen size. All wireless capabilities need to be able to be completely turned off.
In my opinion, it should have a 1/8 I/O port (headphone size) because there are a lot more cables for it, and sound would be easier to implement. It should also have a mini-usb port, and should come bundled with a male mini-usb A <-> male mini-usb A cable, a male mini-A usb <-> female usb cable, and a 1/8 <-> 1/8 male I/O cable. We want to support our users here.
Math is the highest priority. There will not be discussion about this if you guys are serious about this. A calculator must do math.
I would like to pull together a team of programmers to work on KOS specifically geared towards this.
If we are designing the whole hardware, we should work with Zilog to get a custom processor for it that would be better suited towards a KOS style OS.
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I'm worried about where we would get the money for a venture like this?
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That's one worry I have, actually, especially that most of us are still not 18, aren't rich or need their money for studies and the like. Plus the whole risk there is. It would be cool if it worked out, though.
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Well, if we design first, (which will take a really long time) and build later, then money issues can be resolved when we are more capable money-wise.
I think the calcs should have ACT/SAT modes, that the proctor can enter a password in the calc, and tell everyone after the test. (same pass for everyone, maybe wifi-based?) this would disable the features the teacher set (ACT no algebra, SAT has algebra allowed), and disables everything, except for wifi communication to the teacher's program only.
Depending on the spread of this calc, how many we plan to sell and such, that will determine how much customization we will do, IC-wise. At least 10,000 for any custom ICs, anything less will cost us too much.
Any ideas on what it will look like/be shaped like? What about a more effecient keyboard layout? The original QWERTY keyboard was actually designed to slow down first-time typers :P. Maybe we could design our own, based on the most-used keys. That would still be allowed on the ACT and SAT, and it would be better than a plain ABCDE layout.
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Dvorak? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard)
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No, not dvorak :P
I think that ABCDE would be fine. That way, people don't have to learn a funky new layout.
As for venture capital, if we can design it and get a basic firmware written, I know some people that may be interested in helping out.
I like the password idea.
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true, I think they should all be in orders.
Also, try to not use too many keys, but don't make essential math functions too hard to access, either.
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i never understood why people are opposed to dvorak. for example, this post was typed using dvorak. regardless, ABCDE should be fine as SAT/ACT regulators are used to that kind of layout.
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@nemo Exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, but will we have to pay someone licensing to use it? If so (but probably not)
BTW, ACT does allow wifi, just not IR data transfer, and sound will need to be mutable. Other than that, no CAS.
SAT, no electronic dictionary (because it's allowed in tests other than math.) and sound not at all, so I suggest removable speakers.)
For both, no 1 inch high characters :P
Other than that, everything won't really be an issue
Full rules:
ACT
http://www.actstudent.org/faq/answers/calculator.html (http://www.actstudent.org/faq/answers/calculator.html)
SAT
http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-subject/test-day/expect/calculators (http://professionals.collegeboard.com/testing/sat-subject/test-day/expect/calculators)
edit: I hate being ninja'd :P
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I don't like the password idea. Too many problems. Also, that would limit custom software. Any light, password, or wifi could easily be hacked. Why not have something outside the os, like the install os screen that tells if the calc os is act/sat certified. It would prevent a custom os.
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Well, we need to do something that seems secure. The fact is, an 83+ can run a CAS, but that didn't stop people from using it on the ACT. They just want it in the mindsets of students that the use of it shouldn't be available, not that it can't be done.
Edit: The password thing wouldn't be for OSes. It would be integrated into the default OS, like that nspire mode with the LED. I don't see that limiting other software, just that for the ACT/SAT you need to have the right OS on there.
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@graphmastur, juju2143: Saw this a little while ago, which gave me that push to create a calc. ;)
@SirCmpwn: You probably skimmed a page before writing this, didn't you? ;)
Won't blame it too much on you - the topic practically exploded to 14 pages in around 24 hours... :P
First and foremost, YOU are the owner of KnightOS, so you already own the copyright. Heck, this post could be considered my copyright. YOU own it, so YOU decide. We've established that a couple of pages ago.
Second, I really didn't know you were underage. Writing a kernel isn't a joke. It's some serious thinking here and there. Lots of companies love that kind of skill. ;)
Third, don't worry about firmware blocking or anything. This project is a community driven project, NOT a profit driven project. Why would we do something that we're fighting against?
Fourth, we've established the "no QWERTY rule" already, at least for the OTZ80. Screen size will be similar or the same. There may or may not be wireless capabilities. Basically, OTZ80 is an attempt to get people to buy a calc that feels like a TI-8x, but is much better in terms of openness, functionality, and speed. ;)
Fifth, that's an option that will be placed in.
Sixth, this was also already established in some pages ago: What's the point of selling a calculator that can't do math? Math is the top priority here.
Finally, Zilog is not really likely to bend down and just design a chip for us. However, there IS a nice alternative - eZ80. It's the Z80, only a LOT better, and by the same company.
Whew. I don't know why I used numerical words... probably because I'm writing an essay at the same time? :P
@Eeems, @DJ: I'm not sure how this would work. I know some people are willing to donate a bit, but my usual question is: is it legal? If people are willing to donate, they really don't need the money.
@willrandship: That's my point there. Also, that's a good idea. :) And the goal is to sell LOTS. Destroy the crazy TI monopoly? ;) And we (hopefully) won't be using custom ICs - just ones that can be purchased easily.
@SirCmpwn: good idea for venture capitals :)
@willrandship: Good point. Our OTZ80 will definitely fit those regulations.
@graphmastur, willrandship: I still like a password idea, but I'm not sure myself. Definitely there should be a Press-To-Test mode or something of the sort. Otherwise, testing boards will reject this calc for use on standardized tests.
WHEW again. Now off to finishing a fun little narrative essay at 1:22 AM in the morning, and then off to bed for moi.
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Well, I was just trying to think of some way to test, without sacrificing features. I don't have any inclination towards one, just brainstorming.
I can't post any pics for my avatar on wikidot. :(
I'm going to bed now. No more 2 second replies tonight!
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personally I love dvorak, but abcdef is fine by me too
just throwing that out there
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if we are going to use the eZ80 and I am pretty sure we are then I would personally prefer a "upgraded" version of KOS that makes better use of the speed and some new instructions. I know that it will be quitea job to do that, hell, sir has to finish the first KOS first...
Well we'll see, I just want to make sure we sqeeuze te processor to the max and make it as resource unintensive as possible..
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if we are going to use the eZ80 and I am pretty sure we are then I would personally prefer a "upgraded" version of KOS that makes better use of the speed and some new instructions. I know that it will be quitea job to do that, hell, sir has to finish the first KOS first...
Well we'll see, I just want to make sure we sqeeuze te processor to the max and make it as resource unintensive as possible..
good point, we will want to use our full potential :)
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Ok folks I was inspired so I made a small design for the OTeZ80, I first modeled it in sketchup and colored it in photoshop. here it is! (just a mockup)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4868709124_7da9444808_z.jpg)
below is the back-end with a mini-usb connection and a simple IO.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4868716736_9d929e6b95_z.jpg)
below is a top view:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4868716724_0e99625542_z.jpg)
and last but not least a side view, one side contains a slide switch for on/off and the other side contains a slide switch for the backlight.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4116/4868716728_f27f94cc04_z.jpg)
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i love it, but i feel it should be slightly thicker for
a. durability
b. longer lasting ports. ( it would be too easy to crack the calc by bending the mini usb inside the thing.
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Good point. Remember this was just a small and quick draft not the *final* design or something, thanks for the comment though, i'll definetely make the new design thicker. But first I want some more comments on it. Maybe we could add sort of rubber 'band' that would fit into the ports to prevent them from getting dirty or blocked (the "band" being attached to the case).
Edit
Below is the same top_view image but with keynames attachted to them, I didn't do it very thoroughly but this is my idea about it, some keys are explained below.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4078/4868158259_fae9f610b4_z.jpg)
"grph" is "Y=" key
"gset" is "window,zoom,format and graph" combined
"gcom" is "calc and trace"
"mtrx' is "matrix"
"setup" is "mode"
"ret" is "return/delete"
These are the rough equivalents of the keys, I don't know if the layout is perfect, I actually very much doubt so. I haven't add modifier keys yet (the keys accesed trough 2nd). With 38 keys(up, down, left, right, ok and ret excluded) *3 (modifier keys(2nd and alpha)) = 114 keys most of the functions of the original TI83/84+(SE) fit on this design.
Edit2
I just figured the empty Softkey could very well be the "clear" equivalent
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I think that the +*-/ column should be to the right of the numbers. Also, I don't think there should be a store. Maybe if they all were free. Money is going to be complicated as it is.
Maybe have ok ret become left and right click for arm as well as ret.
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Okay, looks good, but move the +-*/ to the right of the numbers, like graphmastur said. Take out the store button. I will just have KOS use = anyway, which you should put in. Change 2nd to shift. 2nd is too similar to the TI-83+, they might get legally mad. Also, separate all the arrow keys. Lets be honest - this will be used for games at some point, and having a circular arrow key layout won't work too well.
I also sketched it up last knight, and it looks slightly different, but I think that this version it better.
I also think we should add another row of keys towards the bottom. I don't really like the OK\ret, it doesn't fit very well with my OS. However, Enter/Clear would do the trick nicely. On the last row of keys, if you need things to put there, try log/ln. Also, move the entire left column down one button, save the 2nd\shift key, and move the alpha key below it.
@alberthrocks: I know all of this stuff, I was just reassessing/agreeing with things that were stated earlier.
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i do believe he means 'store' as in the -> character
imho, i don't really like the horizontalness of it though; it looks more like a mini computer like the voyage or 92 than a calculator
also i think that using both 2nd and alpha to access a function could be nasty (excuse me if i'm interpreting your post wrong, but it sounds like you're planning to use 2nd+Alpha similar to a "3rd" key)
edit: damn, ninja'd
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I like the design, but do remember that we're trying to compete against the TI-8x series.
Looking like a Voyager sitting next to the TI-83s or TI-84s are probably going to scare people away.
Bringing this to class may cause confusion in terms of using it, and of course, trouble with the teacher who demands that you "must have a TI-8x or you fail this class".
What we need is a design that is similar to the TI-83/84 design, but not exactly the same.
That said, I'm right now designing a keypad mockup.
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My design is similar, but also made at midnight x.x
I like the idea of a vertical layout, I don't want it to look like a Voyager.
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Ok I am redesigning now, but it very soon looks like a Ti84/83
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Instead of the password during the test, my suggestion is that there be an option similar to press-to-test, but better. The teacher can disable all programs and apps for a given amount of time (like 45 minutes) during a test. After that, you will be able to use the programs again. This way, nothing is deleted, and you can still use your programs after the test or if your ports are broken.
If you can implement an accurate timer into the calculator, it would be nice. :D
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Change 2nd to shift. 2nd is too similar to the TI-83+, they might get legally mad.
I don't know about that, I had a Casio scientific calculator that had a 2nd function key. I think it's pretty standard on calculators.
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Change 2nd to shift. 2nd is too similar to the TI-83+, they might get legally mad.
I don't know about that, I had a Casio scientific calculator that had a 2nd function key. I think it's pretty standard on calculators.
Yeah, I got scientific calc from the dollar store that had a 2nd function key, so I think it is ok.
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I agree that it should have an accurate clock.
Also, I think that 2nd doesn't fit well with KOS, but Shift does. Perhaps just give it a funky icon, like the 89?
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well i am all for a 2'nd key, but i will make due with the shift.
Instead of the password during the test, my suggestion is that there be an option similar to press-to-test, but better. The teacher can disable all programs and apps for a given amount of time (like 45 minutes) during a test. After that, you will be able to use the programs again. This way, nothing is deleted, and you can still use your programs after the test or if your ports are broken.
If you can implement an accurate timer into the calculator, it would be nice. :D
I love your idea, it will make teachers that are if'y about some strange new calculator feel safe. Anyways, it could always be worked around :P.
Quick question, how would you place the os into a circut board or whatever? That is whet i really don't understand.
Edit: omg i just realized i think i might have one i could hook up to my computer, checking now.
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New design more Ti-8x ish but I demand my bigger screen :P (see OTcalc>eZ80 hardware discussion)
EDIT screen resolution hasn't be decided on yet...
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One thing: we should be able to fit the calc in our pockets (well, pants with deep pockets, at least), like we can do with the TI-73 through 89T. Let's either make it not too long, otherwise, let's make it not too large. Also, I don't remember, but didn't the shape of the 92 prevented it from being entered into tests, too? I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have something that is larger than longer? Let's make sure it's not too small either, though, so the screen is easy to read. Durability is one big concern, too.
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I would prefer having the link ports in the top, makes connecting with a short cable easier.
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I guess it somewhat smaller then the Nspire. I don't think size should be our main concern, if we can fit everything in there neatly with space left then we can shrink it down but otherwise...
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My goal is to get the OTZ80 to be a little smaller than the TI-8x, but stronger in terms of speed.
And that design looks good :) Just wondering - is it possible to place the arrows in the middle? (horizontally, top)
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Why the middle? That was one of the things I never really liked about the nspire.
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We really need to not make them too big. One concern people have is not getting their calc stolen. When people keep their calc somewhere else than on themselves (read: in their pockets), they have higher chances to get it stolen. If they can't even fit their calc in their pocket, then they have a little problem.
As for the ports, they should probably be on the top. I also don't think arrows should be in the middle. I find it hard to control stuff on the Nspire keypad because of that. Either put it on the right side like other calcs, or put it to the left, like on a Playstation, Xbox or Nintendo controller.
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I would prefer having the link ports in the top, makes connecting with a short cable easier.
Could be done. Point is that sckethup messes up when placing circles and rectungles on a arched surface...
We really need to not make them too big. One concern people have is not getting their calc stolen. When people keep their calc somewhere else than on themselves (read: in their pockets), they have higher chances to get it stolen. If they can't even fit their calc in their pocket, then they have a little problem.
As for the ports, they should probably be on the top. I also don't think arrows should be in the middle. I find it hard to control stuff on the Nspire keypad because of that. Either put it on the right side like other calcs, or put it to the left, like on a Playstation, Xbox or Nintendo controller.
I can't say anything about that. We will have to see how large the pcb's will be, then we can discuss this further. Of course the intend is to get it as small as possible but this shouldn't in anyway be a reason for choosing smaller and thus (often) less-good hardware.
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Yeah, personally, I'm for making a working version right now. Maybe start with the z80, since more people know about it.
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Yeah, personally, I'm for making a working version right now. Maybe start with the z80, since more people know about it.
Agreed. I'll stop designing it was just mocking-up. Let's all move to the hardware section so we can decide on that and get rolling...
/me waves this topic goodbye
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Well, ten softkeys is a bit much. The actual OS part of KOS is only planned to need three x.x
Also, I like the link ports on top, and a DS style power switch would be nice, although the hardware should give the OS fair warning before the power is cut.
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That sound like a good idea, imo. Wouldn't want to loose anything important with a power cut.
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Yeah, plus if it's on the side of the device, it could easily be brushed against and users would loose all their valuable data.
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The power switch should not cut off the power, but rather inform the os that the user wants to shut down the calc, so it has time to save stuff to flash memory. PLus, then the user can determine if they want to do a full shutdown, or just a "standby".
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Speaking of power, will the calcs have rechargable batteries? I think that it would be really cool if the calcs would charge when plugged into the computer.
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Yeah, plus if it's on the side of the device, it could easily be brushed against and users would loose all their valuable data.
You mean the power swithc? That is why I choose a slide switch, the one that has pretty "heavy" resistance and needs to click, if you keep it in a bag or pocket it can not possibly turn off with that sort of switch. Just my (humble) opinion.
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I was just thinking about that too. It would kinda suck if it accidentally got switched on in your backpack and drained all the batteries.
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Yeah, plus if it's on the side of the device, it could easily be brushed against and users would loose all their valuable data.
Yeah, I had this happen a lot on my PSP 3000...
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we can have a double power switch.
one on side controls if one on inside will respond to anything
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You could have a lock function like on the PSPs that prevents you from accidentally turning it on (or off).
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You could have a lock function like on the PSPs that prevents you from accidentally turning it on (or off).
thats kind of what i am saying, except just for the power button
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We could also have the switch be recessed into the side, so it cant turn on/off by sliding on a flat surface. Or we could do it how current graphing calculators do it: a key combination.
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We could also have the switch be recessed into the side, so it cant turn on/off by sliding on a flat surface. Or we could do it how current graphing calculators do it: a key combination.
the problem with that is if the calc freezes. If we do go with the rechargeable battery, (all for it! :D), we should a screw battery door, (probably a Philip's head) That said, we should have a complete way to turn off the power without removing the battery.
sorry if i am to presumptuous.
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I like the idea about the power switch, just so we don't have to pull batteries in the event of a crash. I do have a hardware question though, where are we getting the materials such as case, keys, covers, ect... that really need to be custom made for a calculator?
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Well im assuming the first designs will be on a breadboard? :).
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the problem is that we need an initial amount of money before we can do anything about making more than one. ie. shark tank.
the problem with this is that we will need to sell the calculators for more than 20 cents more than it takes to make them.
We will need some real investor's but never let any one person invest enough to be part of the project.
I am all for the Pandora way.
but different.
Ok, everyperson who helps/invests will be part of the advertisement. Each will get to own/buy/borrow an ot calc, and give it to one of their math teachers for a year, requesting that they show it off to other teachers and students, and if kos is better than ti's, recommend it to students getting a new calc.
Remember, selling for the price to make will make a product live then die,
Now if you sell it for PtM plus part one of one more, the product will thrive.
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Well im assuming the first designs will be on a breadboard? :).
Partly maybe...I believe we are opting for a devboard, at least for the ARM version. I think with BenRyves's help we can do the eZ80 version without a devboard. I do ahve some breadboards and quite some components too though so I can do some testing if needed. I think I could buy a eZ80 as well, albeit I am not sure if my local electronics shop has it...
I first want to see a structured plan of attack. Then we can start prototyping.
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We could also have the switch be recessed into the side, so it cant turn on/off by sliding on a flat surface. Or we could do it how current graphing calculators do it: a key combination.
the problem with that is if the calc freezes. If we do go with the rechargeable battery, (all for it! :D), we should a screw battery door, (probably a Philip's head) That said, we should have a complete way to turn off the power without removing the battery.
sorry if i am to presumptuous.
we could have a reset button on the back
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Or, we could have the on/off button send the message to the OS to shut down, or if it is held for longer, it would force a shut down.
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Can we stop this discussion here, and move it to either the z80 or arm topics, whichever calc it is?
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No, but I'll change the name
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Okay. Then, we can discuss the z80 in the z80 topics, and arm in the arm topics. Thanks.
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Okay. Then, we can discuss the z80 in the z80 topics, and arm in the arm topics. Thanks.
No, I am merging all existing topics into this one.
kidding, good idea. :P
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Question: Have we found someone to put the calculators together properly? Because I think that it would be a shame if all the plans were worked out to perfection and the calculators couldn't be made because of that.
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Question: Have we found someone to put the calculators together properly? Because I think that it would be a shame if all the plans were worked out to perfection and the calculators couldn't be made because of that.
That's indeed a question raised by Kerm on Cemetech.
My answer: anyone good with building electronics. Kerm is kind of busy, but he does have access to fun tools :)
I can do some soldering, provided that I have some time and schematics to work with.
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Okay. Then, we can discuss the z80 in the z80 topics, and arm in the arm topics. Thanks.
No, I am merging all existing topics into this one.
kidding, good idea. :P
Wow, just saw this post.
Question: Have we found someone to put the calculators together properly? Because I think that it would be a shame if all the plans were worked out to perfection and the calculators couldn't be made because of that.
That's indeed a question raised by Kerm on Cemetech.
My answer: anyone good with building electronics. Kerm is kind of busy, but he does have access to fun tools :)
I can do some soldering, provided that I have some time and schematics to work with.
No. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone right now. That's also not a problem right now. As by the time we get all the hardware decided on, and the schematics, there will be someone who can do it. I'm more of a software/firmware person, but I have been trying to figure hardware stuff out more.
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One concern I have is where we will get those calcs to be build afterward, if this project comes to fruition. I doubt a lot of us would have time to assemble over 1000 calcs if somehow this project became very popular outside the community. We would need to have a place to do it and a bunch of people to do it.
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One concern I have is where we will get those calcs to be build afterward, if this project comes to fruition. I doubt a lot of us would have time to assemble over 1000 calcs if somehow this project became very popular outside the community. We would need to have a place to do it and a bunch of people to do it.
Considering Licensing and such, copyrights, etc. I think we need to have a machine or something that makes them. If we do that, then it won't be that hard to make calcs. Right now, we don't have any of the resources necessary to do this. When we have a clear view of what we are doing and what we need to do, we will proceed with donations and such to finance these types of things.
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I doubt it would be hard to have a college sponsor us/this.
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It may require many college to do so, though.
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It may require many college to do so, though.
? can you word that differently please?
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^^ I think he means "many colleges."
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oops my bad x.x
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oh ya :D. i should have realized what was meant. sorry my bad
* Happybobjr has been going on little sleep lately, as he contemplate his life and what it means
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No problem. Sometimes my spelling gets weird at night x.x
And sorry to hear D:, I hope you feel better soon.
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or just buy an itouch ;)
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or just buy an itouch ;)
Okay, that was random. What post was in it reference too?
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Holy necropost batman :O! That said, I don't think iTouch spellchecking is any better, if that's what you mean. When Builderboy doesn't proof-read his posts, some... erm... "interesting" results ensues...
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Holy necropost batman :O! That said, I don't think iTouch spellchecking is any better, if that's what you mean. When Builderboy doesn't proof-read his posts, some... erm... "interesting" results ensues...
oh yeah, I hate iTouch spellchecking. I had to turn it off.
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I'm glad it can be turned OFF. Seeing people still use it even with the weird errors it caused made me worried it couldn't. X.x
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(It seems I keep starting up old topics.) Any progress with this? It doesn't look like it.