Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calc-Related Projects and Ideas => Topic started by: Lancelot_du_lac on October 30, 2012, 06:17:05 pm
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Hello evrybody,
Let me introduce myself, i'm a french student,
in my 4th year of engineer in electronics, micro-electronics, & robotics.
I'm 28 ( yeah i know i'm old because i re-started my studies ^^ ).
I know how hard can be this kind of project, so it's not usefull to say,<< it's too hard stop & let ti and casio rape our wallets *.* >>
I estimate this to a 2-3 years project.
-Hardware : I've found a board near the one i'll design. So i can make it even cheaper, and we can have prototype board for 89$
-Software : hardware is running LINUX ( DEBIAN DISTRIB ) so it's easy to write code in C++. I know there is Xcas, but i want do something different. ( i'll explain for people involved ), and IDE will be QT !!!
-Case & Battery : It's to early to think about that, but it's know to be difficult to do a good design, and get a low power consumption
I started this project 2 weeks ago on tiplanet : http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=10640 ( in french ).
I thought to doing it for 2 years now.
Now, it's time because i have the skills to do the hardware. ( I've made my first analog integrated circuit 3 months ago ).
So want i really need ?
-C++ coders.
-Math Teachers
-Designers.
-hardware experts, could be usefull too.
-website designer
-evrything else that could be usefull.
So the main advantage of this Calc, will be : C++ coding and near ASM speed. Access to all build in math libs.
I'm thinking to do multiple hardware with multiple cost. The first one, will be the cheap one. I think to do a ultimate product too after,
with same software.
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A litle FAQ :
Q: Does i need to send money or something ?
A: Just use your skill with your keyboard that's enough.
Q: It's nice, how i can invest myself ?
A: Start to send an answer to that thread here and write your skills ( all skill you can offer, even it's not asked ).
Q: It's wonderfull, but i don't know anything of design, or C++ coding, What can i do ?
A: There is easy start of C++ on the web, and there is other stuff to do, so write your skill, ... in worst case you can order chinese food. ( we have a pizza french man :angel:)
Q: Will i see any benefit of my work ?
A: For moment i'm thinking to use creative commons licence for source. There is no doubt there will be prototypes. So evryone involved will get an access to get a prototype for the build cost. And if the calc sell well i'll see to share any benefit, don't know how, it's too early to say.
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I also expect all your feeling about my project.
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This sounds like an interesting project, but unfortunately all of the previous similar projects have died.
Do you already know how it might look like and what hardware it will have? If you want low power consumption and still want to make it powerfull, you should consider using 2 CPU's: a cheap, slow one that uses almost no power (z80?) to do some basic stuff, and a more powerfull one that can be turned on or of trough software too use for gaming or as a speed boost for advanced math.
For the LCD, the most battery-efficient ones are simple B&W screens, but color LCD screens with no backlight or a backlight that can be turned off gets good efficiency as well. Just make sure it has a good reflector so you can still see when the backlight is tured on. And don't use a touch screen when it isn't nessicary. Calculators can be smashed around quite a lot when they are in a back pack, and touch screens are often made of very tin glass that breaks easly. For the rest, you can add some other nice hardware such as USB ports, wifi, ..., and if you make sure you can turn them on and off trough software, it shouldn't consume the battery too much.
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This sounds like a great project!
I know that others have tried to build a calculator but you seem to actually have the skills to do so.
Q: It's wonderfull, but i don't know anything of design, or C++ coding, What can i do ?
A: There is easy start of C++ on the web, and there is other stuff to do, so write your skill, ... in worst case you can order chinese food. ( we have a pizza french man :angel:)
I think I'm apart of this category. :P I'm learning Java in school and C on my own. If you ever want to get a JVM onto that calculator I might be able to help. I'm trying to learn about the JVM right now.
C++ shouldn't be too hard to learn after I get C since its based off of C.
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This sounds cool
Q: It's nice, how i can invest myself ?
A: Start to send an answer to that thread here and write your skills ( all skill you can offer, even it's not asked ).
I can program Lua and BASIC, and a little c++, but mostly i think i could help with any math you need.
Oh yeah, and someone needs to get you some peanuts, or potatoes
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I'm sure my math teacher won't even doubt if I asked him for help.
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This sounds like an interesting project, but unfortunately all of the previous similar projects have died.
I'll not give up. :evillaugh:
Do you already know how it might look like and what hardware it will have? If you want low power consumption and still want to make it powerfull, you should consider using 2 CPU's: a cheap, slow one that uses almost no power (z80?) to do some basic stuff, and a more powerfull one that can be turned on or of trough software too use for gaming or as a speed boost for advanced math.
The hardware that can be used to dev :
http://www.embeddedarm.com/products/board-detail.php?tab=options&product=TS-7550#
my board will be really close too.
It's not really needed to buy, because we can write the LCD lib easyly even late.
The math engine will run linux under console. So run it with standart input from a file, to a file
to get the work done. After you can do a gui on ubuntu to test the engine XD
For the LCD, the most battery-efficient ones are simple B&W screens, but color LCD screens with no backlight or a backlight that can be turned off gets good efficiency as well. Just make sure it has a good reflector so you can still see when the backlight is tured on. And don't use a touch screen when it isn't nessicary. Calculators can be smashed around quite a lot when they are in a back pack, and touch screens are often made of very tin glass that breaks easly. For the rest, you can add some other nice hardware such as USB ports, wifi, ..., and if you make sure you can turn them on and off trough software, it shouldn't consume the battery too much.
USB 2.0 is included in the hardware. I aim for the ultimate hardware capacitive touch screen with glass. but maybe won't get alive. i would love too see that baby.
This sounds like a great project!
Thank You for your interest
I know that others have tried to build a calculator but you seem to actually have the skills to do so.
I can a non cas alone i think.
I think I'm apart of this category. :P I'm learning Java in school and C on my own. If you ever want to get a JVM onto that calculator I might be able to help. I'm trying to learn about the JVM right now.
C++ shouldn't be too hard to learn after I get C since its based off of C.
It's linux OS, java will be embded. And it's an Debian like. Almost packet can be installed with "apt-get install"
But to be faster the code will be in C++.
There is a lot of doc on internet. And it's a 2-3 years project. You have time to catch up, if you want your litle piece of code inside ;).
There is one task i've didn't talk before,
It's Gui design. The Math app won't be in console. So drawing concept screens would be usefull too.
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I think I'm good enough with C++ to help in some way :) but I won't help in maths (or really a little bit) since I'm in highschool (en première en fait ;) ). And I'm pretty good with Qt :thumbsup:
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Seems like a nice project, but seriously good luck lol. Some people got a lot of skills to do that, but for odd reasons they lose interest after a year or they just become so busy that it eventually die. I would like if one day such project came to fruition.
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Hello Lancelot_du_lac. Welcome here. You may also want to post about your project on <a href=http://www.cemetech.net>Cemetech</a>. They tend to be a bit more hardware oriented, and the site owner (Kerm Martin) majored in EE. :)
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You might want a lighter OS though I do like debian it is heavier then I'd want on a calculator. I'd be glad to help on these projects if you can set up a QEMU instance for me to work with. ARe you going to try to make this SAT compatible? You have to do that to get real adoption of it in schools. Especially with debian you'd want more RAM to run much. The best thing would probably be a custom linux distro. With your specs it cannot run most packages for debian but you could build and set up a package system(I'd say see sabayon/gentoo for good ways to do that) that people could download(I think an msi like format that installs itself would be best). Also for batteries you are going to want at least 2 days of active use to make it usable. That would be a 19200mAh battery. This is a great idea but you might want to work through it a little more.
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Oh, and if you make a rechargeable battery, please allow it to be removable.
I ripped my nspire battery wire trying to take the battery out.
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You might want a lighter OS though I do like debian it is heavier then I'd want on a calculator. I'd be glad to help on these projects if you can set up a QEMU instance for me to work with. ARe you going to try to make this SAT compatible? You have to do that to get real adoption of it in schools. Especially with debian you'd want more RAM to run much. The best thing would probably be a custom linux distro. With your specs it cannot run most packages for debian but you could build and set up a package system(I'd say see sabayon/gentoo for good ways to do that) that people could download(I think an msi like format that installs itself would be best). Also for batteries you are going to want at least 2 days of active use to make it usable. That would be a 19200mAh battery. This is a great idea but you might want to work through it a little more.
It's a lighter Distro of linux based on debian. It's sold with the CPU. I've checked that.
You'll not able to run all packages, that's sure. But the aim of this project is to do the most compatibility.
The thing that i'm only a bit worryed, it the screen driver. I can make a lib to use the screen, but i would like the system to understand
if you don't start anything else that just the os, that it should use the screen I/Os for standart output. ( And not the Hdmi ). So
i've to write a screen driver, and i admit not being an expert in linux, just a good user.
That would be far more usefull that the os know there is a screen instead of writing a lib to use the screen in the math gui.
Oh, and if you make a rechargeable battery, please allow it to be removable.
I ripped my nspire battery wire trying to take the battery out.
It's not the hardest thing to too. So, in time we'll see to do it. :w00t:
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I've found the hardware, that will used.
This board is far better
CPU : ARM9 @ 454Mhz
DDR2 400mhz : 128MB
OS : Linux 2.6
Flash NAND : 256MB
6 lcd screens working with this board. ( working on framebuffer ). ( no more problem with lcd driver )
board' cost : one unit 55€ without tax, 32€ over 5000 units.
We are going to work on this. I'll retro engeneering the board and build even cheaper.
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So, what will you need on the software side ? Just to make sure that I really can do something :P
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Software will be splited in at leat two modules. ( Some others modules that i thought will be added later or optionnal ).
-Math engine
-Gui system.
First, we have to code the math engine.
It's gonna be in shell like this :
$mathenginename "code or math expr to exec" -options
=> output standart "Results".
The math engine writed in a C++ code, and is fully object oriented.
you can redirect input and output standart to files in linux easyly
So Gui will use files or memory to I/O for access to the math engine.
But before evrything, it would be awesome to design a web site for sharing our work, roadmaps, ..., and find other people.
& Coordinate work.
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Just wondering, why run Linux 2.6 if you can run 3.X?
Also, if possible, native support for (Micro)SD cards would be awesome.
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it's an embded system. It run micro-distrib already installed.
I don't think this a good idea to upgrade, and not usefull.
Micro-SD is supported by this device. It's gonna need some work to integrate it in the package. Don't think it's easy, it's a mistake, but do able.
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Ah okay. Anyway, very nice project. I hope it succeeds.
I'm afraid that I won't be able to use it though. Pretty sure our school only allows TI-83+ and TI-84+ BE/SE calcs
-- EDIT: Also, I'd suggest putting a replaceable Li-Ion or Li-Pol battery in there. Pretty sure most people wouldn't mind plugging their calculators into their chargers like once a week.
-- EDIT2: Is this the CPU? http://www.armadeus.com/english/products-processor_boards-apf28.html (http://www.armadeus.com/english/products-processor_boards-apf28.html)
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yes to the second edit.
nice find.
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But before evrything, it would be awesome to design a web site for sharing our work, roadmaps, ..., and find other people.
& Coordinate work.
Have you gotten anyone to build the website? I think that would be a great idea.
Would there be separate sections for French and English?
Have you thought about porting a CAS instead of making one from scratch or would this be harder to do?
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Just make sure to not plain start an entire forum that includes TI-8x/Casio/projects/technology/gaming sub-forums and keep it as specific to your site and the project as possible if you're gonna have a forum to discuss it (and even then don't forget to cross-post major updates). Otherwise people in the community tends to see that as direct competition to already established forums and then they ignore the project completely. :P
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The web site is focused on the project only. So nothing on ti, casio, or anything else not related to the project. It's gonna be primary english because it's the internationnal language for working. But evry translators will be welcome, to translate each messages of the site, including forums.
why dev a new CAS engine and not porting one ?
I think to build an engine that is more powerfull and more engeneer oriented. There is some lack of math definition in Ti-BASIC, and it's different from xcas engine.
Xcas is not embded. And if you see the scratch of Xcas, it's 150k lines of code.
So it's not the see the drink.
And you'll be able to use the math libs in C++. these libs will be as advanced ti-basic.
Just think what is possible to do with that ... C++ power with Ti-basic style.
And i want do some functionnality that doesn't exist either in xcas and ti-basic.
And this main advantage, is, you need a specific function for your specific work,
you can code it using the primary blocks of the math engine easyly and ask to
integrate it in futur dev. And if there is no primary blocks for your function,
just integrate yourself the dev team and start the code for it.
i've my own server, and i'll have optical fiber in a few weeks, and i've installed successfully SVN.
And nobody until now started the code of the site. So i'm open to any coders.
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Well, I think it should have maybe two programming languages.
TI basic is very very simple to use. Just give me something to program and I’ll program it in a few minutes.
But the thing about it is that it can’t program very much.
A few weeks ago, I was making a program to multiply numbers and keep more decimal places, by inputting strings, changing them into strings before and after the decimal point, changing those into integers, multiplying large integers, then changing them back into strings and adding the decimal point.
C++ can that easily, and much more, but it is much more difficult.
So users with little knowledge in c would not be able to program anything. And even those that can would have to sped some more time fixing syntax errors until it works.
So I think a easy programming language and a more difficult programming language would be good for the calculator
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I think don't understand my meaning.
C++ is hard, because it lack of advanced class, like expr in Ti-basic.
The math lib goal is to define this with C++ class.
so your code will be :
#include <advancedmathlibs.h>
int main (void)
{
expr var1; // create a var of type expr named var1.
var1 = "integrate(x^2+x+c,x,1,50)"; // set an expression in var1
std::cout << var1.evaluate() << sdt::endl; // send to std output the evaluation of the the expr
}
you'll able to do var1 * var2, var1+var2, ... and anything that is possible. ( even if it don't do a result in that case you get back the error ).
so you'll have speed of C++ & the power of advanced mathematics coding.
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It might be nice to have a basic like language though so non-programmers can put basic things into their calculators. I'm not sure I fully understand your reasoning for not using a prebuilt CAS. I'd think something like maxima or octave would work well, and if you want to be able to have it more integrated into C++ it shouldn't be too difficult to build classes on the function they already have. I think for this you should use C/++ as the asm like language of the 84 and have something(python, lua, basic) as a language for quick programs.
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This sounds like a cool project!
I could probably help some out with C++ and webdesign (i know php mysql javascript (html css))
I also know some lua.
And i think too that some BASIC dialect for it would be cool.
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@Lancelot_du_lac do you want to make C++ a sort of script language ? If so, I recommend to use libgcc for on-the-fly compilation, so you'll have maximal speed.
Also, I think that it should be cool to use Python as basic language, and allow the use of import, so the user'll can use external libs such as PyGame or PyGTK, if we success in porting them (if there really is a need to port something).
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It might be nice to have a basic like language though so non-programmers can put basic things into their calculators. I'm not sure I fully understand your reasoning for not using a prebuilt CAS. I'd think something like maxima or octave would work well, and if you want to be able to have it more integrated into C++ it shouldn't be too difficult to build classes on the function they already have. I think for this you should use C/++ as the asm like language of the 84 and have something(python, lua, basic) as a language for quick programs.
It's possible to do a "basic" like language for starters. It's simple to do, just exec in math engine all lines in order. A litle C++ code for running "basic" files will be realy easy to do. The main problem for maxima and others, they don't have 2 major functions that i look for. You can't add it, it's primary blocks.
@Lancelot_du_lac do you want to make C++ a sort of script language ? If so, I recommend to use libgcc for on-the-fly compilation, so you'll have maximal speed.
Also, I think that it should be cool to use Python as basic language, and allow the use of import, so the user'll can use external libs such as PyGame or PyGTK, if we success in porting them (if there really is a need to port something).
C++ will be compiled. so it's not a scripting language, just a native C++ with super charged class.
This sounds like a cool project!
I could probably help some out with C++ and webdesign (i know php mysql javascript (html css))
I also know some lua.
And i think too that some BASIC dialect for it would be cool.
Ready to start a webdesign ?
would be awesome. :evillaugh:
i have a PC with ubuntu SVN and apache2 ready ( already 24h/24 running ), and in 2-3 weeks i'll have optical fiber. ( Already have a domain name, and some crapy stuff on my web server until now but i'll buy a second domain name for this website ).
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Just one thing: Will it have a headphone jack? I'd like to write a chiptunetracker/mod tracker for it :)
Also: will it feature a nice left-handed d-pad? (oh wait it's supposed to be a calculator?)
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Just one thing: Will it have a headphone jack? I'd like to write a chiptunetracker/mod tracker for it :)
Also: will it feature a nice left-handed d-pad? (oh wait it's supposed to be a calculator?)
HD Audio will be available. ( and could be used like a low frequency synthetizer for electric experiments )
d-pad, not really. ( but there is usb host. )
There is azerty/querty keyboard by default, at this step of the project. Packaging, is not easy task, so we'll see.
And yes the primary is to aim be a good calculator.
But we'll never set limitation to this device, for any other kind of workload.
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I was just wondering if you had any idea how you wanted this to look, the calculator and the screen, al though it might be better if this is decided later.
I like the look of the cx, and some aspects of the screen of the prizm
Also, are you going to have a touchpad, arrows, or a flat circle that moves like a joystick?
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I was just wondering, would you be able to have a detachable keyboard? Or moreover, just part of it?
I was thinking a joystick like think for one thumb and a d pad for the other thumb would be awesome. And you could replace that with a left handed version of it. Or a touchpad.
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This is what i have in head for moment ;
11x22cm closed.
tiny notebook style without touchpad, but with a numeric pad.
at least 2 micro-usb, a sd slot, and jack 3.5.
maybe i can set one usb on each side to plug pad modules ;
like this one with numeric pad and a bit smaller.
http://blog.geeksaresexytech.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ikitnotebookmain.png
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And maybe it would be nice to have some way to secure the modules next to the USB connectors, because MicroUSB alone is not strong enough. And maybe it would be nice to have MiniUSB instead of MicroUSB, because then you should be able to use TI accessories when you have the right drivers. Which makes me think, maybe it's nice to have a 2.5" serial jack too, also for TI accessories.
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This sounds like a cool project!
I could probably help some out with C++ and webdesign (i know php mysql javascript (html css))
I also know some lua.
And i think too that some BASIC dialect for it would be cool.
Ready to start a webdesign ?
would be awesome. :evillaugh:
i have a PC with ubuntu SVN and apache2 ready ( already 24h/24 running ), and in 2-3 weeks i'll have optical fiber. ( Already have a domain name, and some crapy stuff on my web server until now but i'll buy a second domain name for this website ).
Yeah, if i knew what to do :P
Just some website about the awesomeness of some new third-party calculator?
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And maybe it would be nice to have some way to secure the modules next to the USB connectors, because MicroUSB alone is not strong enough. And maybe it would be nice to have MiniUSB instead of MicroUSB, because then you should be able to use TI accessories when you have the right drivers. Which makes me think, maybe it's nice to have a 2.5" serial jack too, also for TI accessories.
That'd be cool. I wanna be able to use my serial gamepad I made for the 84+ XD The only problem: If you're going to be able to connect official TI accessories to it there is a chance TI will sue ya. Just a thought.
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A secure connector, a "clips" system, why not ;)
Yeah, if i knew what to do :P
Just some website about the awesomeness of some new third-party calculator?
I send you a MP.
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I think it might be good for you to make a mockup of the calculator(2d or 3d). That may help raise interest especially if it was on your site.
I agree that python would be a great language for your basic like language. Its reasonably fast for interpreted, works with C/++ code and it can easily have features added with modules
What is maxima/octave missing that you need?
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like this one with numeric pad and a bit smaller.
http://blog.geeksaresexytech.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ikitnotebookmain.png
So is this going to be a laptop, or a calculator?
And is it going to look similar to a nspire or a casio
It would be important, or at least good, to get a general concept design or art, even though those would really only be implemented in the final stages of design. This could get more people interested in the project,
If you're going to be able to connect official TI accessories to it there is a chance TI will sue ya. Just a thought.
If it has a usb, and it is less locked than an nspire, then you can use usb thermometers and such, and I think it might be cool if he could get an accelerometer in the calc.
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It should still kind of look like a calculator, else teachers are going to think you took your Nintendo DS XS with you to your exams...
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I think it would be good for people to start posting (or maybe we should make another topic) should start posting ideas, maybe small pictures or there descriptive idea, and then from those people make better pictures, and finally a 3d image.
And it would probably help to have pictures of what will be on the calc screen, such as the homescreen, the menus, ect.
It should still kind of look like a calculator, else teachers are going to think you took your Nintendo DS XS with you to your exams...
By what we are describing it as, unless we have a very lowering press to test mode, I don’t think that this would be allowed on any test.
The qwerty keyboard alone would disqualify it from every major us test.
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the 92 has also a qwerty keybored
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“Since the TI-92 Series and Voyage 200 feature a QWERTY keyboard they are not allowed on ACT, SAT, PSAT and AP exams.”
http://datamath.org/Graphing/TI-92PLUS.htm
So I don’t know about the IB or Praxis exams.
But the CAS would disqualify it from the IB exam.
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For Dutch exams, only 7 calculators are allowed (Casio CFX-9850Gplus, Casio FX-9860GII, Casio CG20, HP 39gII, Texas Instruments 83+/84+, Texas Instruments Nspire CX). There are several older models allowed too, but they strongly advise not to use those.
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It should still kind of look like a calculator, else teachers are going to think you took your Nintendo DS XS with you to your exams...
True, the previous calc project from last year originally looked like a Pandora or DS, but then the guy decided to make it more like a real calc due to concerns about it getting banned. I think that was the plan for OTZ80 and OTARM, too.
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In my mind, i'm looking to do the most advanced handeld tool in math. So Cas system is the main feature of that tool.
So main target should be engeneer, maths teachers, ...
But to not disqualify to exams, i'll do my best that for each country.
But one thing, i won't set a exam mode, because it's like a small computer.
It can be hacked. So cas will stay ever.
About how it looks, i already conceded some stuff for price and for us exams.
nothing is closed yet, but that i want for this, is a really big screen. When we need
a calculator is often for complex equations, and they aren't small.
And i want integrate a simulink tool too. So it's not 100% already done to be like this.
I can change my mind with good arguments.
I don't have any drawer yet.
And nobody that is a doomday guy in blender.
& teachers won't see in it a game-boy, DS, PS VITA, whatever , if you don't play in front of them.
& teachers after try it will not use anything else, ...
-- for maxima and octave, let me some time to verfy that, because i know a lot of tools but not each one in full detail.
But as far i've seen yet, maxima don't have them. I'll explain all in detail fully later, just let me some time.
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Just a few questions:
Any ideas for the GUI design? Will it end up being just like a Linux OS and then you will be able to launch a math application or is going to be mainly a math tool and then you can run other programs on it kind of like the Nspire?
Is a mouse going to be included?
Are you writing a fresh Linux Distro or is it just going to be the included distribution modified for the calculators purposes?
Is this supposed to be a gaming machine too?
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Just a few questions:
Any ideas for the GUI design? Will it end up being just like a Linux OS and then you will be able to launch a math application or is going to be mainly a math tool and then you can run other programs on it kind of like the Nspire?
Is a mouse going to be included?
Are you writing a fresh Linux Distro or is it just going to be the included distribution modified for the calculators purposes?
Is this supposed to be a gaming machine too?
Gui will be done by us.
no mouse. ( gui will work without but there is usb host )
distro included with our gui work.
no it's not a gaming machine. but we'll not ban gaming on this.
& please i wait for the faq, cause i'm getting tired :D
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I don't have any drawer yet.
And nobody that is a doomday guy in blender.
I believe levak once made a made an nspire in blender, so he might be able to help you
Also, f you are going to have a touchscreen, I don’t think that you should have a touch pad. Also, I think a stylus would be very good, especially for precise points on the screen, and for drawing graphs from lines.
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Personnaly, I disagree for the touchscreen : too breakable, and it would make the calc too close to a smartphone :/
I prefer the idea of a thumb stick and a D-pad on the other side.
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I study electrical engineering at the moment and I made several peripherals for the 84+, so if you could provide me with some technical details once they are available so I can make peripherals in advance :)
I'm talking dataloggers, gamepads, midi interfaces, etc.
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Just FYI guys the clamshell (DS like) design has been used by Casio in a calculator before, so that's not an issue. :)
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I study electrical engineering at the moment and I made several peripherals for the 84+, so if you could provide me with some technical details once they are available so I can make peripherals in advance :)
I'm talking dataloggers, gamepads, midi interfaces, etc.
Very nice !!!
Just FYI guys the clamshell (DS like) design has been used by Casio in a calculator before, so that's not an issue. :)
cool
I believe levak once made a made an nspire in blender, so he might be able to help you
Also, f you are going to have a touchscreen, I don’t think that you should have a touch pad. Also, I think a stylus would be very good, especially for precise points on the screen, and for drawing graphs from lines.
i want capacitive, but cost and other things like the link to this tinyboard are not our side. So for moment i say no touchscreen, until i can be sure to get one. Resistiv is too crappy so i don't think include it.
Personnaly, I disagree for the touchscreen : too breakable, and it would make the calc too close to a smartphone :/
I prefer the idea of a thumb stick and a D-pad on the other side.
we'll see ;)
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ok i've read the part of source code from octave & maxima that i'm interested in. ( source code is open. ).
Maxima is set in Lisp, this is bad because, it's hard to find good programmers today in Lisp. ( myself i don't know so much ).
Maxima has a very minimal definition of his primary types. ( this is a real problem ).
I don't have looked inside for auto simplification, but i think it should be inside.
Something like this :
(x+1)/((x+1)*(x+2)).
if you don't set a mod auto [on] for simplification for eigenvalue, it should STAY like that.
( For some kind of calc, it generate a lot of error if you don't care about ).
finding the code and change that is more work than doing a better one.
And Lisp is a too old language.
Octave is C++ and is not perfect writed but well writed.
Auto simplification is set by default and can't be stoped.
Class are used, but not enough for what i have in mind.
And use only a part of this code is not possible, it's gonna generate more work,
and may cause problem of licence.
And after all. Don't be worry. I have some kings in C++ coding.
And i'm not bad after all.
The octave project is around 1Mo of real source code for the engine.
It's not a easy task but not a hard one.
And knowing your code is far better, than using one that you don't understand.
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Will the user get root access by default?
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I don't think capacitive would be the right thing, seeing that the display is probably going to be pretty small (3 inch-ish), and that only really works with a stylus.
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I'd be glad to help where I can in the code. The one problem you might have is that even if you are good at coding in C/++ the hard part will be the math. Some of what you want to do will require really hard math. If you need any help from me I'd be glad to help.
I'm good at C/++ and python
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what will the calculators name be?
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& teachers won't see in it a game-boy, DS, PS VITA, whatever , if you don't play in front of them.
If I use my calc in class, the teachers see that as school work, but if you make it like a DS, they would probably think more like that is a laptop and you are ignoring them.
Personnaly, I disagree for the touchscreen : too breakable, and it would make the calc too close to a smartphone :/
I prefer the idea of a thumb stick and a D-pad on the other side.
we'll see ;)
The reason why I would like a thumb stick and d pad is because you can use both of your thumbs, relatively comfortably, rather than having one thumb awkwardly in the middle of the calculator.
Also, when you have a d pad and touchpad together, you can’t allow the touchpad to be too sensitive, or else it will move the cursor too much, so you have to resort to very slow responding touchpads.
I believe the thumb stick and d pad would allow the user the best way to respond what you want to the calculator, just third behind a touch screen and a mind reader.
I also thought maybe a way to include a nice qwerty keyboard and maybe try to make it exam acceptable would be a removable keyboard. Especially since 90% don’t use the nspire keyboard probably.
what will the calculators name be?
Lol, I named the files calcdulac
So I made a few pictures in paint, one with the detachable qwerty keyboard, one with a nondetachable qwerty keyboard, one with a possible side view, and one with a touchpad.
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I don't think having a removable qwerty keypad is a good idea, since people will rely on it for calculations and stumble in the exams. QWERTY isn't necessarily an ideal layout anyways, given that you're only using thumbs, and that we're not using typewriters anymore. (QWERTY was designed so that you would avoid typing on the same side as often, to prevent jamming keys. Hence, common sets like he, or, le, etc. would be on opposite sides of the keyboard.)
Plus, why is the keyboard on the bottom? That's terrible, ergonomically. While I appreciate the idea of having a separate qwerty keypad, even Alpha modifiers are better than that.
By using a different layout, you are also freed from that design shape. A tall, thin shape would ideally have a tall, thin keypad.
Now, no more criticism for this post. :P
I like how you're trying to use an existing CAS library. That will save a lot of work down the line. I'd recommend focusing on writing the majority of the software portion before working on any hardware development, since that doesn't require any funding. If you can pull it off, it would be a very nice calculator. I would probably buy one.
Oh, and if this thing will be powerful enough to run Debian Linux, then its C++ coding will blow the TI-84+'s Asm out of the water. However, it would have to be quite powerful to compile that C++ on the calculator within any reasonable time frame.
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This: bluetooth keyboard. Done deal.
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This: bluetooth keyboard. Done deal.
I'm sorry, but it's not possible.
All techs without wire are banned from exams.
I don't think having a removable qwerty keypad is a good idea, since people will rely on it for calculations and stumble in the exams. QWERTY isn't necessarily an ideal layout anyways, given that you're only using thumbs, and that we're not using typewriters anymore. (QWERTY was designed so that you would avoid typing on the same side as often, to prevent jamming keys. Hence, common sets like he, or, le, etc. would be on opposite sides of the keyboard.)
Plus, why is the keyboard on the bottom? That's terrible, ergonomically. While I appreciate the idea of having a separate qwerty keypad, even Alpha modifiers are better than that.
By using a different layout, you are also freed from that design shape. A tall, thin shape would ideally have a tall, thin keypad.
Now, no more criticism for this post. :P
Even, i'm not a big fan, i find this idea interesting. All ideas are welcome.
I like how you're trying to use an existing CAS library. That will save a lot of work down the line. I'd recommend focusing on writing the majority of the software portion before working on any hardware development, since that doesn't require any funding. If you can pull it off, it would be a very nice calculator. I would probably buy one.
I DONT want use an existing cas lib. i want code a better one. It can make laugh some, but i've read codes already, and it's not so hard, for good coders.
Oh, and if this thing will be powerful enough to run Debian Linux, then its C++ coding will blow the TI-84+'s Asm out of the water. However, it would have to be quite powerful to compile that C++ on the calculator within any reasonable time frame.
small codes will be near instant compiled. Even for a 4ko program, it's fast on a 450mhz ArmV9 CPU to be compiled on board.
And we can run all that can be runned on linux. If people are more friendly with java, or what they like, it's linux you know, it may be slow, but evrything will be runable. Even games that already exist in linux, ( open source only because you'll need to re-compile it onboard.),
you can compile it too on a Pc under linux with a special tuneling system. But i don't think a lot of guys would like to do it.
What will be the name ? Ok, thats is a good question and not.
For moment i named the project 'LI-A0'.
Its for make at least one prototype working ( & well if possible ).
If ( and only if ) this project is successfull ( a good product that people may buy it, price & quality are there ), i may start an industrial project that is the direct follow of this.
So why talking hardware, packaging now ?
If you do a prototype that cost 1B$, and is amazing, nobody will buy it.
If you do a prototype that is not coded to work on any hardware, you'll need to re-code or re-think it.
So it's time to set an ideal hardware, and have an idea of the kind of packaging. Not all details needed on packaging, but some usefull.
It's time to talk intellectual property, too.
I'll see an expert soon on it to be sure what we should do.
And if you want know, what i have in mind today for packaging, that's this style :
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090316/3350858119_bb70b3565a.jpg
( & no mouse & a numpad ).
And yes, it's a calculator :D
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Wow that calculator looks expensive.
All techs without wire are banned from exams.
Well then: make it BARELY wireless. With a reeeeally short wire attached to the calculator. Wait wut... :crazy:
Do you want to make a docking station for it? With features such as: charging, streaming audio from the calc and streaming screencaps to a vga monitor or beamer.
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I prefer the design you've drawn, I'm afraid that this last one will be rejected from exams if it looks too much like an iMac :P
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And if you want know, what i have in mind today for packaging, that's this style :
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20090316/3350858119_bb70b3565a.jpg
( & no mouse & a numpad ).
And yes, it's a calculator :D
I’m sorry, but I just don’t a fold up DS-laptop is all the great of a design.
In my view, why do we get calculators? Me, to get a handheld that helps with math, or to get an ultimate math experience. The former uses a endheld, and the latter would be done with a handheld, tablet, or laptop.
Why get a calculator like that if you can get a laptop.
But to each their own.
I don't think having a removable qwerty keypad is a good idea, since people will rely on it for calculations and stumble in the exams. QWERTY isn't necessarily an ideal layout anyways, given that you're only using thumbs, and that we're not using typewriters anymore. (QWERTY was designed so that you would avoid typing on the same side as often, to prevent jamming keys. Hence, common sets like he, or, le, etc. would be on opposite sides of the keyboard.)
Plus, why is the keyboard on the bottom? That's terrible, ergonomically. While I appreciate the idea of having a separate qwerty keypad, even Alpha modifiers are better than that.
I use a QWERTY keyboard all the time, so I am a little better at it.
Also, since it was originally intended to stop typing on the same side, might it still be easier now, so that you can spread your fingers about.
And is it actually better to have it spread out amongst the keys? I thought that you would accidentally press the other keys too many times.
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I can kind of see how this could come in handy, though I would buy a casio and a nspire before I bought something like this
This would okay, and if you add the thumb stick and d pad it could still be somewhat handheld, however, I think that a short wide screen would be ugly and awkward.
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Having two blatant d-pads would imply that you're using them for more than navigation. Disguise them as something else, like the 4 arithmetic buttons, possibly.
So, you're looking at 450 mhz? That should be plenty for compiling. I was worrying you might be going for some 100mhz, 16mb RAM board that can barely run a kernel, let alone gcc.
The only kind of wireless communication allowed is line of sight infrared, and only because it can be blocked with electrical tape. But then, your biggest concern from what I see is making it a good calculator, not making it exam-worthy.
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Having two blatant d-pads would imply that you're using them for more than navigation. Disguise them as something else, like the 4 arithmetic buttons, possibly.
Oh, so what were you planning to do with it?
I am annoyed that when using the touchpad on the nspire, I have to have my thumb all the way in the middle of the calc, and I can only use one thumb at a time.
Also, because the touchpad is also the d pad, it is slower to respond because it can’t know if you want the d pad or the touchpad.
My friends at school think the touchpad is so bad, and I was watching an unboxing video the other day, and the guy thought the touchpad wasn’t even turned on because it wasn’t responding.
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Well, it's still a calculator. If you want a gameboy, just make a gameboy.
Also, I really hate touchpads. Especially touchpad-dpad combos.
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Having two blatant d-pads would imply that you're using them for more than navigation. Disguise them as something else, like the 4 arithmetic buttons, possibly.
Oh, so what were you planning to do with it?
I am annoyed that when using the touchpad on the nspire, I have to have my thumb all the way in the middle of the calc, and I can only use one thumb at a time.
Also, because the touchpad is also the d pad, it is slower to respond because it can’t know if you want the d pad or the touchpad.
My friends at school think the touchpad is so bad, and I was watching an unboxing video the other day, and the guy thought the touchpad wasn’t even turned on because it wasn’t responding.
I agree. If there is going to be a touch screen or touch pad on this calculator lets make it a good one. I have an Nspire CX and the touchpad kind of sucks if you are trying to use the mouse with it. Also when I let people borrow my calculator to play games they don't really understand the concept of only using one thumb.
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Hmm.....
I just thought of an idea that would vastly improve Alpha-modifier style keypads, aesthetically. Have a clear acrylic button, with 3 engraved layers. Each layer has its own LED that can be turned on or off, so it shows one of the three button options. Heck, it could even change for different menus. It would be far cheaper than those screenKey things, since it wouldn't need to drive a display. It would just drive three LEDs.
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I have had a lot of graphic calculators.
Casio Graph 25, 65, Ti89 1.0, 2.0 , 89T, & Cas CX.
The best keyboard is without any doubt is Ti89. Fast, and really good key touch.
The Cas CX is the worst. Even it's a powerfull one, the keyboard is hard, and the touchpad is a joke. And key are far more smart on Ti89.
But the bigger screen is nice for big equations. & The other nice thing, you enter in line in 89, & you enter in smart real form in Cas CX. ( easyer to see if you've made a mistake in the equation ).
So What is the aim ?
-better keyboard than CX ( oh yeah, you'll say it's easy ).
-A more bigger screen than CX for other things like simulink'like works.
& huge matrix
-Faster than CX, in maths. Ti-basic is too slow.
-Improved math engine.
-some matlab function integration with the ability of formal way of a calculator. ( matlab can only use real or complex, but no undefined vars ).
-& i think, of tools like this one in option : http://www.picotech.com/picoscope2000.html
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You might like to try the nspire clickpad's keyboard, if you don't have fat fingers. The alpha keys are small, but they're spaced apart and they're raised above the others, so there's no need for modifier keys (Although they have 2nd and shift)
I agree that the touchpad and CX layout is terrible, especially since all the symbols are in submenus. (Seriously? A Trig button?)
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i was moving these days, so i wasn't really availlable.
I'm going to get optical fiber this week, and i'm gonna take a domain name.
we have a web designer already working on.
I'll have hardware soon in hands. ( i'm testing now a pando board ).
SVN server is up.
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The pandaboard seems like it will be a bit overpowered, but at least it doesn't have an FPU (big time cheating device for some fancier ARM boards :P Don't expect one on anything affordable except the RPi)
Make sure you keep in mind the drastic decrease in performance your actual calculators will have compared to that board.
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it's just a quick watch, nothing else.
Our dev board is Armadeus FP28.
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it's just a quick watch, nothing else.
Our dev board is Armadeus FP28.
Are you talking about the APF28 Dev? I couldn't find an FP28 board.
This is the one that I'm talking about
http://www.armadeus.com/english/products-development_boards-apf28_dev.html (http://www.armadeus.com/english/products-development_boards-apf28_dev.html)
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That's not a bad choice at all. It should be able to handle compiling just fine, and as long as you can keep the cost down it should make a great calculator.
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http://www.armadeus.com/francais/produits-cartes_microprocesseur-apf28.html
The board for people that don't know it yet.
the dev board is used when you want dev something on the apf28 ( sorry wrong name before ).
unit cost is 55€ without taxes.
it's powerfull, & full integrated. :evillaugh:
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Ah, so you are planning on making an asic with an onboard cpu? I can't read.
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Well, that's interesting. Apparently it will have an attached FPGA. That would be very useful, not only for programming but also for general math and such. (Imagine setting it up as your FPU)
I would love to see some games make use of it too!
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That FPGA will probably not make it into the final design. That's going to be replaced by an asic I think.
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An asic doesn't actually mean anything, you know. It's just a chip with other chips inside. No reason to include one unless you need the contents.
Plus, designing your own ASICs is pricey, unless you're going mega-massive production.
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apf 28 don't have any FPGA, it's not usefull for that project, it's the the apf51, that is bigger and cost a bit more.
No asic will be done ( even i'm able to design them ). too costly.
the only thing that we can do ( without big cost ) is re-design the board with same chips.
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That's what I figured you'd do, mainly because you'd need to design it to fit your enclosure and input methods.
Any thoughts on the screen? If you go B/W then you'll save power, but the board's easily capable enough to handle much better. If you go with a color screen, get one with a decent backlight please, or maybe even transflective (but those are more expensive)
Too bad about the FPGA, but that was just a coolness factor, and I agree that it's not really that useful in this scenario.
Have you considered using GnuPlot as your graphing system? It doesn't have to be your CAS, but it's really nice. All it really needs is an interface, which you already have to write.
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it's gonna use 'X' window server.
<a href="http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=901987installationSDK.png"><img src="http://img15.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_901987installationSDK.png" alt="Heberger image" /></a>
We'll use Qt SDK.
I'm gonna order in a few days the hardware, including screen and dev board.
For screens i'll see later witch one we choose. But one thing, code must be smart to be able to run on multiple resolutions.
Hope a lot more people to be interested in, and are going to help coding. ;)
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Regardless of how powerful the machine is, it will need to meet the following requirements:
-Be cheaper than the TI-Nspire CX (including shipping costs). Preferably cheaper than the TI-84 Plus Silver Edition as well.
-Charge the same price regardless of the country (unlike TI, who charges $40 higher in Canada than United States)
-Have no QWERTY/AZERTY/DVORAK keyboard that could potentially get banned from tests
-Have a teacher mode so that features can get disabled with no way to be enabled by the student through hacking and stuff, to ensure that the calculator is admitted at as many american tests as possible.
Cheaper price is a must, because you're in direct competition with TI, and since what people want is a calculator, they might not necessarily spend more just to get a much more powerful machine. (In such case, they'll just get a $70-100 tablet or something)
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Gnuplot runs under X windows. It's a graphing program i.e. it plots functions, not a graphical display system. I just figured it's a LOT easier to use existing code, and since it's GPL we can easily include it. (No violations since we're just including the whole program, not merging it into non-GPL code.)
Why would you care about multiple screen resolutions if it's one device? Will there be external video capabilities.
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Doesn't using Qt introduce a huge overhead, seeing that Qt is made to run on many kinds of platforms - won't it be best to directly interface X?
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+1 for Qt. In my opinion, it would definitely be the best way to develop GUIs easily.
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Qt does have quite a bit of overhead, but as long as you don't get too excessive, this board can handle it.
Plus, since this will be running plain linux, we as devs can use pretty much whatever GUI libraries we want, if any.
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Hm, maybe it would be nice to have all developers develop in the same framework, so that all apps look kind of the same.
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Even when using the same frameworks the apps would look wildly different. I don't see it as an issue if they don't look the same. The layout style (which is totally up to the developer) affects usability far more than the graphical appearance.
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ok, sorry for no news.
I moved to a new house, and now i have the optical fiber. Our web designer is building the website.
we still need more coders.
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I'll only can program the GUI :/
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I'm a chinese student.I'm working on a DIY calculator project,too.My plan is use the STM32F3 as the main processor.And the total cost is about $16(100 yuan).I think I can help with the translation.
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I'm a chinese student.I'm working on a DIY calculator project,too.My plan is use the STM32F3 as the main processor.And the total cost is about $16(100 yuan).I think I can help with the translation.
Hi zweb, welcome to the forums. You should introduce yourself <a href="http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=10.0">Here</a>.
ok, sorry for no news.
I moved to a new house, and now i have the optical fiber. Our web designer is building the website.
we still need more coders.
What kind of coders? I might be able to ask people in my computer science class but they all program in Java.
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It's really difficult to program for an environment that's not available to you. Do you actually have your OS for the device available yet? We need that first or we won't even know what kind of libraries we'll have.
It's a generic enough ARM processor, correct? Why not set up a QEMU environment?
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I'm a chinese student.I'm working on a DIY calculator project,too.My plan is use the STM32F3 as the main processor.And the total cost is about $16(100 yuan).I think I can help with the translation.
Nice, would be cool to be available even for chinese people.
Hi zweb, welcome to the forums. You should introduce yourself <a href="http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=10.0">Here</a>.
ok, sorry for no news.
and dev on this platform is not necessary, you just need to do code able to be compiled by gcc.
I moved to a new house, and now i have the optical fiber. Our web designer is building the website.
we still need more coders.
What kind of coders? I might be able to ask people in my computer science class but they all program in Java.
Best is C++, cause the main project will be C++
other language could be usefull for no critic applications or addons.
Willrandship, you can buy the armadeus and a dev board. There is a hdmi output if i remember well. Linux distribution is available on their website.
I will buy one.
You can dev without a board. It need just to be able to be compiled by gcc.
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I can write quite a bit of code that can compile on GCC without being cross-compatible to different architectures. The easiest ways involve using functions like sizeof(<type>) or inlined assembly.
I already have a Raspberry Pi. That should be much closer, provided I don't use the hardware acceleration.
Also, why buy the distribution? Is it that hard to make your own? (PS it's not)
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I can write quite a bit of code that can compile on GCC without being cross-compatible to different architectures. The easiest ways involve using functions like sizeof(<type>) or inlined assembly.
I already have a Raspberry Pi. That should be much closer, provided I don't use the hardware acceleration.
Also, why buy the distribution? Is it that hard to make your own? (PS it's not)
i thought to use an open source distribution. there is some.
i found this board nice too : https://www.olimex.com/Products/OLinuXino/A13/A13-OLinuXino-MICRO/
and code can even be writed on a PC under windows, with QT installed, and just run MinGW for compile for PC. just run it on pc for debug and test.
The compilation will run same on linux.
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Hi zweb, welcome to the forums. You should introduce yourself <a href="http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=10.0">Here</a>.
ok, sorry for no news.
and dev on this platform is not necessary, you just need to do code able to be compiled by gcc.
I moved to a new house, and now i have the optical fiber. Our web designer is building the website.
we still need more coders.
What kind of coders? I might be able to ask people in my computer science class but they all program in Java.
Best is C++, cause the main project will be C++
other language could be usefull for no critic applications or addons.
I could maybe also help with that, I have some C++ knownledge. What graphics library will we use?
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Hi, first time i read about this, and i have to say: i smell a good project in this
I don't know if you need anyone else but i'm not good at c++
My skills:
-html
-php
-c#
-ti-basic xD
-thinking capactity :D lol
- i'm in a very mathematical study so i know some things... And i'll learn a lot more...
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Maybe you could try with your thinking capaacity to come up with awesome algorythms for e.g. deriving functions and give them to somebody else who can program them in c++ :D
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1st: the thinking capacities fail a lot xD
2nd: i don't understand :o what's deriving?
3rd: idk what functions are avaiable to perform in the algorythmes
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Hi, first time i read about this, and i have to say: i smell a good project in this
I don't know if you need anyone else but i'm not good at c++
My skills:
-html
-php
-c#
-ti-basic xD
-thinking capactity :D lol
- i'm in a very mathematical study so i know some things... And i'll learn a lot more...
hello.
Thank you.
We're working for the forum, for having a place to work. So website is rising and will be soon available. I have seen some people for learning more about licences. This is a huge mess. But i found something that would be pleasant, or less unpleasant.
But for moment, i need some more math teacher or math master for giving us the best way to code our work. This work need a good skeleton to go somewhere, so we need more than simple advices.
I'm glad to see more and more people to want go onboard. ;)
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How do you mean exactly? Just add something like (idk if this would work in c++) (it's just random very tired thinking so 100% wrong) input->var
(Loop)
Instring("*" or "+" or "-" or "/" or ... ,var)->A
Sub(0 , A-1)-> num1,2,3,....
Sub(A,1)-> operation1,2,3...
Sub(A+1 , length(var) - A) -> var
(Endloop)
Calculate: num1 operation1 num2 operation2 ...
Damn i'm so dumb, you could just read it as an expression, ad then it would auto calculate xD stupid me xp
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you also want functions nice looking input(if for mass market) and the ability to have parentheses
EDIT: I could maybe also help with that, I have some C++ knownledge. What graphics library will we use?
We'd be using qt for most graphics. At least I think thats the consensus right now
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Hmmmm yeah true
But you know what lancelot... I'm gonna look into coding such stuff and c++ etc... But for now... I'm gonna sleep
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So now the forum is ok : orgitello.fr/lia0/
it's on my own server, so it's enough fast for mass users.
Thanks to sorunome for helping me for that, i'm very weak on doing web stuff.
I invite all people that want get involved in to suscribe regardeless your skills.
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I don't think you understand the compilation issues that occur when transferring across architectures. There are quite a few examples of these, like different variable sizes, the fact that ARM processors default to unsigned variables, the different sizes of all the variable types, the differences in how long types work, all of these must be addressed when porting code across platforms.
The unsigned variables are particularly important. On x86, I can safely assume that when I say int a = -5, I won't end up with a huge, positive number. Not so on ARM.
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That's why we must do code that specify the size of the vars. ( or verify if all is ok by asserts ).
each line of code must be perfect, in sense all has been predicted.
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need more people on the dev forum, evrybody that want involve, please suscribe.
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I tried with the address [email protected] but I never received the confirmation email :(
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try to log in. You should be able to.
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I tried with the address [email protected] but I never received the confirmation email :(
I had that problem too and Sorunome had to activate my account. There must be a problem.
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It's ok now, thanks =)
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ok i notice that.
I'm starting an UML thing for the project. I think this is the best way to start.
If anybody here is a king in UML, i'm interested in.
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[totallyNoobIsHere]
What's UML ?
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In this context, UML stands for Unified Modeling Language.
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UML is a way to see how looks your program by retro engeneering oder write your classes by generate button.
I'm studying the softwares, their quality and theyr bad parts.
At the moment i don't have a prefered one.
this is what i started yersterday with modelio : http://hpics.li/97d438a
This is the perfect software i think, but the module for C++ cost an arm for a student. 300€ for one computer, or 500€ for a licence than can change of PC.
This is exactly ( UML ) what we need to start the project. I was wondering how to start properly with diagrams but i never have the idea of this kind of language exist and is normalized.
Hey guys i need U, i need some more involvers.
(http://ladymadd.fr/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/we_need_you1.jpg)
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I think we need to get the project going for people to get involved. More people will get involved if they see that work is getting done and that this is a serious project.
Sorry but I can't help on the UML. I don't even understand what it is.
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I think we need to get the project going for people to get involved. More people will get involved if they see that work is getting done and that this is a serious project.
Sorry but I can't help on the UML. I don't even understand what it is.
I agree, we need start some code to see more people to get involved.
i've done this so far in UML :
(http://img4.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_711184modelioft.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=711184modelioft.png)
First classes of the project. I'm still working on it. It's really helpfull this tool. Cost an arm, but helpfull ;)
This is only a fraction of the class of the math lib. You can see, the project is really ambitious. We have all we need. SVN, ... just need some more good brains ;)
I have a lot of work, so i do as far i can on my own time.
During the hollydays i'll have a lot more time, so i'm going to start the first 10k lines of code. I just hope some more people to help.
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What can i do? Idk :s
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I personally prefer git, but I could help set up a repository of some kind if needed(I have a git repo on my server)
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What can i do? Idk :s
The is a lot of work to do. The first things to do is to log in the dev forum ( link in my signature )
There is one main prog, that is a GUI. We need a design of the windows. A second part that is a small engine to pretty print math.
The third and most difficult to do is the advanced math lib, that i'm trying to create a class - plan.
This a difficult project. So i need some informations from others coders of the way to start well. I don't want do mistake in the first 10k lines of code, cause i don't want to restart from scratch. That's why i'm trying to do a class plan with UML generators. & This is a serious project. Even it's not my main task today, but this is my main task on my own time.
I personally prefer git, but I could help set up a repository of some kind if needed(I have a git repo on my server)
I have optical fiber and a SVN server. It's already working, and i'm coding on it. This is my own computer@home so i know where the data is. This is a server that you pay for it on the internet ? maybe it could be usefull a day with compiled sources.
And we still need more people to involve in for others things, like design, web design ( i guess one is not enough ), even java, ... whatever you think we could need & you have skills.
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It is, indeed, easy to install Git on a server, through e.g. Gitolite.
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I guess i could help with webdesign...
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ok would be nice ;)
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(If sorunome let's me help xD cause he's a way better coder....)
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It is, indeed, easy to install Git on a server, through e.g. Gitolite.
I use gitorious on my server because I thought it would be an interesting thing to setup. It took forever but its a nice interface to git.
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Hello 2013 world.
I'm sick so hard to find courage to work. But still on track. Don't worry, will be still on track for a long time. i need just more time in all so short days.
The project start with umbrello software on ubuntu. It's an UML software. See you all soon on the website.
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Thanks, same for you!
I really hope you find the time to finish this, many developers suddenly dissapeared, leaving unfinished work, without anyone telling about it, that would be a shame if it happens with this project too. I wish you all the energy and time you need to reach your goal, I really hope you do so.
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As soon as something has to be done with Qt, I'll help :)
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For the moment, i'm looking to create the structure of data with UML. But i'm not an expert in UML and very advanced things in C++. So I improve my skills a the moment.
Help with that is welcome, This is a bit hard for me today, and i'm moving forward too slowly. I've done Test with modelio and the next step is to do the structure of data on Umbrello. During the hollydays i was so sick i couln'd work, and in two weeks i'll do my exams. So my work on it is on "pause mode".
On hardware, i've done some progress. A friend in my school is on hardware project. He's gonna design the PCB & most the specifications aren't anymore drafts.
But software is very very important part. And it's a real problem to start it on the good way. Specifications are writed on paper. The data and the calc engine is gonna to be very strong. So hard to program it, and harder to start well. That's why i've done already some test in starting it, but i need more skills to do it in a better way. This 50k lines of codes of this start should be perfect, because this is a project of more 1M lines of code, the "kernel" part that is the math engine can't be odd or difficult too understand to use, or bugged.
So, i need some help to that part, because i feel a bit stuck, i've some contacts, but they don't have much more time. So more help is needed.
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FWIW, the process of designing, writing and debugging/testing even 50K SLOC is a highly time-consuming task... man-months, full-time.
(granted, anyone can build a 50K SLOC C/C++ program in a matter of minutes - but then it's a highly peculiar program which doesn't represent real-world code)
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yeah i know, not a easy task. I'm a fast guy, i need learn some more concepts skills to be able to start it right. With only a few hours per week i can do more than 1k per week. I did last week arround 730 for a robot in 6 hours. ( in C ) and i did it a bit slow because this prog was using some advanced automatic concept of multitasking.
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I really do want to help but this is way out of my league. I need to learn a whole lot more before I can even begin to start trying to help. I'll be learning C then moving to C++. It seems like that is the way to go since they are very similar and C is just good to know.
Is there anything new going on? So far is there anyone else developing for this besides you?
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Status :
i started today really coding. Why i waited so long ? Because i needed skills that i didn't have before, and time too. My main objectiv is my studies. I'm doing the real base of the math engine now, in project for my studies my c++ teacher approved, so it's gonna move really now. My objectiv in this project is the math data containairs and the numeric solver. So it's a good start for the whole final project.
There is people interested in but no c++ coders yet.
i hope some people will get some time to help soon.
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I know C++, maybe I'll help with the parser or something.
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nice
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Yeah an issue is that most people on Omnimaga mostly know java or python and very few know C++. Good luck on this project and I'M glad it is still alive :) (Someone was asking on IRC last night I think)
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If I see a proof of concept for the hardware I will gladly help. I know C/++, some java, and python
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My friend, that is doing the same studies as me, said me he's ok to route the printed circuit board for that project. But for now he's finishing a robot for the french robot cup.
The Hardware will be on a 7" screen, with a laptop style for the keyboard. CPU is on ARM, we've found a lot of interesting CPU, @ around 500mhz+. So we wait the starting of routing to make choices on that.
Like i said before Hardware will not be a problem for us, it's gonna be my job soon. The case must be more difficult for us. Sounds crazy but it's true, i've heard of old students that i've done other projects and got the same problem.
Like i said before it's around 3 years project. So it's normal that it start & looks slow. I'll finish my studies next year too.
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Well, you can't start making a case until you have the hardware down, otherwise you won't know the dimensions of the screen, board, keypad, etc. available for the design. You can make all the proof of concept drawings you want, but none of them will matter until that information is known.
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Definitely agreed, the case is a secondary matter until you've validated the first prototype boards by testing on real hardware.
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The most important in the hardware case, is the choice of the screen. That part is done. The PCB will be small and battery a bit large.
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What screen will you be using? 7 inches sounds a little big for a calculator.
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As long as it's cost effective, a big screen never hurts. Character size needs to be low for ACT standards, but that's not difficult.
I still think you underestimate the work in laying out a PCB, with CPU, RAM, battery, and I/O all handled properly.
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A big screen is OK if you can make much use of the space around the screen. Just have as less buttons as possible, while still having the ones we need to access regularly. On the TI-92 in addition to 2nd there is also a Shift and Diamond key. Basically layout the buttons on each side of the calculator and have a string of F keys at the bottom or something in a way that the calc remains as small as possible and fit in our pocket.
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I would (personally) not recommand using a touch screen. I don't know what your intentions are, but touch screen are nice for phones etc, but I rather use physical buttons to type in numbers etc, and I don't think I'm the only one thinking that, so make sure you still make it portable when you would ad buttons, 7 inch is quite big for a calc imo, but if it works well, it can only be nice to work with
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Yeah I agree, plus some touch screens are terrible quality, like the iPod Touch that I've got, where if you try to click a link it always clicks the one right next to it even if zoomed in to the point where the link text takes 25% of the screen height.
Also I think such screen is disallowed in even more tests than the CAS itself, right?
One nice thing, however, is if one set of buttons was layed out so if you press ALPHA you have access to letters in alphabetical order, and if you want to code, you can rotate the calc vertically so you can type with both hands. Of course the calc might be best if used in such position often, though, since you see more equations at once. You could have the option to turn it horizontaally for gaming and other 16:9 or 4:3 stuff
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ok i've read and i see your worrys.
Don't be scared about PCB routing, it's a job that me and my friend that is gonna be a small part of our job so it's for us already easy task. SERIOUSLY. a week or two of full work, because the PCB is small, and we'll do autorouting, because we don't need a lot of layers.
I would love to do 2 screens of 7" with touchscreen. It's not so costly, my friend is very good to find good hardware at a very low cost. we've already done some research about the subject, and we can find the screen for a very low price. That is nice.
The second screen would be linked to other on the large side. The calc will close like a commputer. But even if the second screen is nice to have a smart keyboard that can change as you needs change, maybe it's too costly or need too much power. So the project is SET today in my mind with a simple smart keyboard with a full querty keybord with diamond, alpha, ... smart and better keys that this fucking bad CAS CX.
in the up side, it's gonna be have the screen only. in the keyboard part, you'll find under the keyboard a batt and the PCB. And i'm thinking about integrate a small fpga on option. We'll route it in case it may interest some people.
about the CPU. It's gonna have a MALI 400 ( low clocked ) or better. If you need 3D or gaming or whatever you need ...
I've not coded so much so far this week, but it's gonna be far better next week.
If you want see code i have a SVN server already running. I hope see soon coders too.
don't forget my forum, for people that want to code.
and in my life i'll go to BRASIL in june for work 6 months in a micro-electronic lab. ( porto alegre ).
I can do PCB and full hardware without any doubt, but software i can't go do the CAS alone. So ... you know what to do if you whant this project to be in your hands in 3 years ...
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Writing a CAS is a big job. I still think you're better off porting something like Sage, whose source, by the way, is 319 MB. It's totally legal to do so, and it would be far easier than making one yourself. It would also be extendable (internal package system), and have a much larger support base thanks to the sage community.
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I was waiting for someone else to write that before raining on the parade as well :)
Clearly, indeed, writing a CAS from scratch is not only a waste of time (though it would be an interesting learning experience, the fact is that existing CAS engines have had much more manpower poured into them than you can hope to gather), but also, it's doing things out of order. En français, "mettre la charrue avant les boeufs" (I know the English translation of several idiomatic expressions, e.g. "il pleut des cordes" <-> "it's raining cats and dogs", but not this one).
Building and debugging the platform from the lowest level - i.e. porting and booting the bootloader, then porting and debugging Linux, testing the hardware through bootloader + Linux - needs to be done long before writing CAS software. I can assure you that making the platform boot, in such a way that some user-space can be built on it, takes months of full-time work for skilled CS engineers ;)
Not that I'm a skilled CS engineer (just yet), but I directly know of people from another company who are precisely making their own ARM-based platform and making uBoot + Linux + userspace work on it (and that's easier than making anything else of the same functionality level boot on a platform), so I have second-hand experience of what I'm stating.
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The english equivalent is "Putting the cart before the horse" which, as far as I can tell is a pretty direct translation, but it retains its meaning well enough.
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I just thought I'd stop in and say I agree with what the others have said about a CAS. I think it'd be much easier to use or port an existing one than writing one from scratch. You just need to look around and decide which one fits your needs the best and has a license that is compatible with your intended usage. :)
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I want go for CAS for scratch and i explained some pages before.
There is no engine yet that is able to do what i'm looking for.
I've watched 2 code of 2 cas engine in detail. But The problem is from the start of their projects. It's about limited variables & types. They use only floats & complex types. For me that's a problem. ( we can't upgrade of change the core i've already read the code ).
I aim to do C++ lib for the calc too. So in your code, you'll able to use any complex function & compile it. And that can be portable because it's C++.
I'm thinking about functions that are inspired from matlab, and some are from mapple.
I know it's a lot of work, but i think it's better to code what you need, instead of using what you don't need.
And the CAS system can be done after the basic calc lib.
And all CAS system were written from scratch, so a day you have to start ...
>Lionel Debroux
I'm not CS engineer too. But almost electronic one, i need one more year.
I know what i'm able to do, and what it's possible to do in 3 years. i know i can do it even alone but i will need more time.
Why I see criticism and no help ? It's possible to build a small embded system with linux easily. There is a lot of work already done and small linux distrib to download on the website of the seller of the chip.
Hardware it's a lego game, so it's not a real problem. The cost and the how to build can be difficult but doable if you don't start crazy.
Without writing a CAS, this project has not interest. Buy a TI - 89 and do quadratic regressions with it, ...
When you'll become an engineer, i hope so, you'll see even a CAS CX is "stupid" because you can't add specific details to the equations.
I want to override thoses limits, the only way is to build a better code. If you don't want help, no problem. :ninja:
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sry i can go mad sometimes ...
but i think ( hope ) this time i've been heard. Without writing a CAS it's a useless project.
The basic math engine is far more complex than the other system. I'm writing it today.
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Without writing a CAS, this project has not interest. Buy a TI - 89 and do quadratic regressions with it, ...
Without writing a CAS it's a useless project.
Without full-spec hardware (you'll certainly make mistakes, as I fully admittedly would, because such is human nature), a bootloader which boots, a Linux which boots, all of which are prerequisites to the CAS running on your platform, a CAS specific to your platform is even more of a useless project ;)
Having that CAS engine, possessing the capabilities you need, running on other platforms until it runs on yours (if ever), is, in itself, a worthwhile project.
It's possible to build a small embded system with linux easily.
There's a huge difference between porting Linux onto an existing, properly designed hardware that actually works (such as the Nspire platform), and making one's own complicated platform in order to port a bootloader + Linux + userspace (even with the help of the chip vendor). The former requires men-weeks to men-months, thanks to the high portability of Linux, while the latter can require men-years, even with Linux's range of drivers and debugging tools. Recent (somewhat) ARM-based microcontrollers are very complicated, having to design and debug one's hardware adds lots of complexity.
I've been a CS engineer for more than 5 years, and as I wrote, I'm currently loosely working with experienced EE + CS engineers from a long-established small company. They have spent several men-years ingesting thousands of pages of datasheets and specs of a not-so-recent Freescale ARM-based microcontroller (comparable to the one you're aiming at, though possibly a bit more advanced), then designing the schematics (adding more hardware and I/O than you're aiming at, granted), validating them + routing the PCB (and still making errors), then porting the bootloader (finding driver pieces left and right), trying multiple buggy patched Linux kernel versions from Freescale until they found one that actually worked (thereby wasting weeks, being unable to tell whether the problems they experienced were due to a hardware problem or a software problem). In fact, they're not done yet with that hardware platform.
Why I see criticism and no help ?
Maybe, partially, because everybody (and especially old-timers of the community like me, I've been around since 2001) knows that none of the previous calculator projects devised in the community over about 10-15 years have gone anywhere, and yet, all of them were based on much simpler hardware (68328, etc.) with less I/O, i.e. they were easier to design than the one you're dreaming of ? I used to be a supporter of one of those projects, too, but then I was young.
There is a lot of work already done and small linux distrib to download on the website of the seller of the chip.
There was, also, for our partners in the hardware making. Some of their problems were due to the fact they customized the board further than the reference design, but the rest were just due to bugs introduced by the manufacturer.
When you'll become an engineer, i hope so, you'll see even a CAS CX is "stupid" because you can't add specific details to the equations.
The "Not that I'm a skilled CS engineer (just yet)" mention aimed at indicating that 5 years is not enough to consider oneself skilled ;)
You're not the first one lamenting about a number of limitations of existing CAS engines, I also did at times, possibly before you even had a calculator.
I think that my point is clear by now - I just want to make sure you're not underestimating the amount of work needed to reach your (laudable) goals. This shouldn't discourage you if you really believe in them, but just be prepared to spend lots of sweat on it. Neither making one's platform based on a recent microcontroller, or making a CAS engine with capabilities vastly different from existing CAS engines, are easy tasks.
The fact that the limitations stay, over the years, makes me think that the features you can't find in existing CAS engines might not be so easy to add at all (or at least, difficult to add in the same engine as other more usual features, due to e.g. conflicting constraints).
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On the topic of the 7 inch screens, will the calculator still fit in our pockets or pen case like a Nintendo DS or a TI-89?
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On the topic of the 7 inch screens, will the calculator still fit in our pockets or pen case like a Nintendo DS or a TI-89?
I'm afraid not, 7" is huge (too huge for a calc imo, I'd rather go with max 5"), it's this big:
(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/archos_7_internet_tablet_8-527x500.jpg)
while 5" looks like this:
(http://www.umpcportal.com/gallery/d/20789-3/Archos+5+Internet+Tablet+_34_.JPG)
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Lionel Debroux> ok i admit there is things that i've din't done so far. But there is Open Source schematics about arm board like rasberry, panda board, ...
Just need deleted useless parts and remap schematic smaller.
There is other board more interesting, ...
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About the look, i want do 800x480 or better, with a folding keyboard.
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On the topic of the 7 inch screens, will the calculator still fit in our pockets or pen case like a Nintendo DS or a TI-89?
I'm afraid not, 7" is huge (too huge for a calc imo, I'd rather go with max 5"), it's this big:
(http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/archos_7_internet_tablet_8-527x500.jpg)
while 5" looks like this:
(http://www.umpcportal.com/gallery/d/20789-3/Archos+5+Internet+Tablet+_34_.JPG)
Hmm for some reasons 7 looks too big but 5 too small. What about 5.5 or 6? (if that exists)
Also
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/iphone19.jpg)
Samsung Galaxy note 275.0 will probably have a 50 inch screen.
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not easy too found, so high price
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here are some:
http://www.newhavendisplay.com/tfts-c-1.html
and more specifically this one might be interesting:
http://www.newhavendisplay.com/nhd57640480wfctxlt-nonstocked-50pc-moq-p-4304.html
5.7" of colorful iny tiny lights :)
(http://www.newhavendisplay.com/images/large/NHD-5.7-640480WF-CTXL-T-front_LRG.jpg)
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Size: 5.7" Diagonal - 640 x 480 (8-Bit)
&
$116.00
the 7" 800x600 i found is much lower priced. ( around 30$ )
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Makes no sense to have a smaller screen but a higher price.
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I think it's due to offer and demand. Maybe those screens are just so rare but still a bit in demand that it raises the price. Just see how expensive a factory-sealed copy of Chrono Trigger for the SNES is on Ebay.
This is why PCI cards were more expensive than PCI-E ones in their final days.
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I'm working on basic calc engine with a no limit of precision. It's working good for moment, i can mul add sub until now without error.
Why re-write simple op like add ? Just because adder are limited by size of the physical adder. i'm writing a code that can add unlimited size of number. And the number is auto-sized to the minimal size needed.
In case of irrational number there is tips for detect and stop the size. And i'm gonna use a smarter approach.
i work mostly the wednesday morning, so next time i aim to code divide.
My basic engine aim to be able (8^3)! without bug and don't do an approx like wolfram, but do the real calc.
the code is C++, is writed for console check in visual studio 2012, all the code is able to be compiled by gcc++.
So aimed to be portable for any CPU & OS.
I'm not working for optimisation now, just working & check working with asserts and visual inspections.
My forum is down, because i did a mistake on the server so until i fix it, it's normal. And as nobody help, this is not very important that the forum come back very soon. so when i have time to install apache again.
So code is growing ...
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divide is finished & working fine.
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ok now the systems is working with multiples Atoms, so i've done a test on 199! and it's clearly the good answer.
now i'm gonna integrate Xint to do random asserts to be sure that truely working.
@+
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Good to hear :)
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Building a CAS from scratch is a very hard task, but in my place I just port the Maxima or any well tested CAS. Afterwall I agreed in your choice to use Linux as a core operating system of your prototype, but if it will be a open calculator, then any official repository should have the Maxima as an alternative CAS engine.
One of the big mistakes in any retail calculator CAS in market is the unability to evaluate contour integrals, residues of functions or addicional special functions used in engeneering courses.
I hope will add this functions someday.