Omnimaga

Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2011, 03:21:28 am

Title: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2011, 03:21:28 am
A few years ago, when I was active in programming games, mainly RPGs, I was often the direct target of many anti-TI-BASIC remarks and in some rarer cases (such as from a certain 68K IRC channel) flames. Around 2005-06 this stopped, but then I had to face bad remarks because I used libraries in my BASIC games. Apparently, doing it that way was cheating, for those people, because I did not go through the effort of doing it in pure BASIC, requiring more optimizing and RAM/garbage collecting, or in ASM, requiring me to learn ASM successfully even if it takes me 10 tries or so.

In fact, around 2004-05, there was an anti-BASIC mentality going on on a formerly active forum MaxCoderz (back when they used Ikonboard software instead of PhpBB) and it sometimes sparked arguments between United-TI website, where most members were pro-BASIC, because pro-BASIC coders felt disrespected by some of the ASM crowd due to generalizations made about BASIC programmers (due to the fact many BASIC games on ticalc.org were half-hassled) and some narrow-minded remarks (IMHO). A year or so later, the Anti-BASIC mentality waned, but on United-TI, a mentality against the usage of libraries in TI-BASIC games started and because some people on MaxCoderz used them, it fueled new flame wars and debates. Similar things occured on Ticalc.org news comments around that time. At one point there it was so bad that the minute a BASIC game was featured, all there was in the comments were BASIC vs ASM debates and some people questioning the newsworthiness of the program. And when a BASIC coder announced a project somewhere, he was suggested to learn ASM, but in some cases the ASM programmer insisted so much that it became harassment. Some examples of news that triggered BASIC vs ASM tensions are this one (http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/12/122/122186.html) and the 2005 ticalc.org April Fools joke (http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/12/126/126141.html).

In my case, I did survive the harrassment wave and also even tried to learn ASM to shut them up, although my 3 attempts were futile, but I did not make it through the remarks about my usage of ASM libs afterward. There's a reason why all ROL4 attempts died, why Reuben Quest 3 never took off, why SMSD isn't 100% complete and why I haven't made a single entire new game since 2006. I simply lost interest after what happened and my interest never recovered. As a result I just worked in making sure there would be at least one calc forum where everyone would be able to announce a project without his topic turning into a debate about which language usage is good practice or not and which one is worthless or not.

Over the years, those debates were less and less present, but the TI community was quiet then, so maybe that doesn't count.

Then came Axe Parser. At first I worried about even more BASIC haters because BASIC coders had even more reasons to switch from BASIC, but finally I only ever saw two mild incidents towards BASIC programmers here, which were quickly solved. However over the year after Axe arrival, I started to notice at some places other than Omni that some people tried to discourage people from pursuing their Axe programming from time to time and suggested them to switch to ASM or Doors CS7 BASIC libs instead. However, at the time there were no arguments given as to why the person should drop Axe and switch to something else and in other cases nothing was said about people's choice of Axe parser.

However recently I noticed that this escalated and now it seems in some cases it's just plain generalizations and this is why, after seeing this (http://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7032), I decided to post this. Since some of the remarks come from banned Omnimaga members or people who sees Axe popularity as competition to their own projects, I worried that the escalating hate towards Axe was simply because Axe Parser came from Omnimaga and Axe is the most popular language here, and some people happen to hate Omnimaga with a passion (competition and/or clashing mentalities, I guess... can't please everyone). However I think it's not just that, because when some of the anti-BASIC flames occured, Omnimaga did not even exist yet. I think now it's because some people just can't accept that people go through an easier language to make a game instead of spending the effort and time to learn ASM, even though some Axe and BASIC coders stated many times that they failed at learning ASM despite getting help or simply disliked lower level language syntax, so now some hardcore programmers just retaliate with generalizations and narrow-minded remarks, like what happened towards BASIC coders back in the days.

Although some people do have a point (most BASIC games just plain suck and several Axe games are larger clones of ASM games or poorly-optimized code), just because a group of Axe or BASIC coders produced poorly-optimized or redundant games doesn't mean that every single Axe programmers are lazy bums. They may not be true hackers if most of their code is not pointers/direct memory access, they may not be as hardcore calc programmers as some z80 ASM programmers are, but IMHO it doesn't mean that no Axe programmer should be recognized for their work for the community. Also just because you managed to learn ASM easily doesn't mean everyone has the same IQ as you and will manage to do it as easily, if at all. I myself dropped out of computer programming major in college because I realized it was not for me, yet it wasn't even close from ASM yet. Just because you love the challenges of coding doesn't mean everyone have to think the same way as you. However, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide (http://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7032). I do not think it's right to imply that everyone use Axe as a lazy way to make faster games for calculators.

(That makes me glad most of the Nspire C vs Lua activity is on Omnimaga/TI-Planet. I can't imagine the C vs Lua arguments that would go on elsewhere if C was easily useable on the latest TI-Nspire OSes and models...)

Anyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games. Granted, some newer people here need to improve their coding *cough*and spelling :P*cough* but everyone has to start somewhere, right? As for the guys who stayed with Axe, Grammer or BASIC instead of switching to ASM, IMHO it's their choice and they should not be judged because of that, especially if it makes their programming experience more enjoyable. Otherwise, IMHO, it tends to be a bit like when you judge somebody who prefers electronic music to rock.

P.S. The same thing happens in the music making community: If you showcase your music but ever mention you used GarageBand, MTV Music Generator, Dance Ejay or Magix Music Maker to make it, prepare to get laughed at, no matter if you post the best song ever on their site. Hence why I created a MTVMG forum a few years ago.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: ruler501 on November 14, 2011, 03:36:20 am
Me Grammars is good though
/end spam
:P

I have to agree with this. Language wars for the most part are pointless. If there is a good reason to use another language you can point it out but you never try to force someone to use it. Like if someone was writing an Operating system in Brainf**k you might recommend they learn C/++ and try that instead. But you dont force them to do it. Language wars just take away from code and make people less likely to make wonderful, great programs.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: aeTIos on November 14, 2011, 04:56:43 am
DJ, you got a great point with this post. +1.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Yeong on November 14, 2011, 07:18:32 am
+1 for you, DJ. :D
I agree with that all language stuff. I was in Cemetech other day and saw people discouraging people from using hex code. Really, in my opinion, people should use language that they want, not the language "recommended" by peer pressure. :D
Quote
*cough*and spelling :P*cough*
well, it's kinda hard to fix that (at least, me)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 14, 2011, 08:11:47 am
>.< I saw the post by merth on cemetech and I agree with him.
Quote
How is that different from any other language and library? I do a lot of programming in C#, does that mean that the only person who really did any work was the language designers and library writers? Obviously not. If there's a higher level language that exists and makes development faster and easier, I don't see any reason not to use it. Should people learn ASM? Yes. Should they have to stick to it then? No. Should it matter to anyone else what language someone else prefers to write their software in? No--as long as the language isn't getting in the way (or you have to support the code).
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: JustCause on November 14, 2011, 11:45:32 am
I second everything in this topic. Simply put, programming languages are tools, and for every project you've got to use the tools you know and that will get the job done.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: alberthrocks on November 14, 2011, 12:02:13 pm
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.

Nevertheless, I think languages debates are pretty much pointless. Who cares about what language the program's in if the program is awesome? :) And I strongly emphasize the point of... you know, having fun while programming! :D As I've pointed out in my Cemetech reply, if a person is programming for a reason other than to have fun, then that person should consider a new hobby... ;) To make an example: even with wxWabbitemu coding woes, I enjoy it. Why? It's a good challenge, and the satisfaction gained from having it work - no, having it come alive in your eyes... it's indescribable. :D

(My rather comprehensive reply to the topic: http://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=168049#168049)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: lkj on November 14, 2011, 01:54:31 pm
I agree with DJ  :)
Programs / games can be fun or boring to play whatever language they are in. If the idea is good and the chosen language doesn't constrict the implementation, why should you choose another language if you like the one you're using? Some people like the challenge of a complicated language, but others like to make a game even though it's not in the most complicated language.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Hayleia on November 14, 2011, 02:26:35 pm
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at it
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables

But at least he didn't speak about speed.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2011, 02:33:30 pm
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables

But at least he didn't speak about speed.
Well to be honest, the negative Axe remarks started to come immediately after Doors CS7 added backwards compatibility with xLIB and added new commands for BASIC coders. Granted, the executables are much smaller because they're interpreted, but the speed is slowed down by the BASIC code present in the program. Basically both got different advantages/disadvantages. Right before Doors CS added BASIC tools, most Axe comments were positive.

Another thing that I found ironic is how after DCS added xLIB backwards compatibility, Kerm encouraged people to use ASM libs for BASIC coders, while years ago, the very same person would discourage the usage of such libs in BASIC. (See Metroid II Evolution news comments on ticalc.org)

Also personally my issue is not really the pointing out of flaws in Axe that some people do, since we do it all the time here with every language (especially Nspire BASIC), but rather the generalizations that some people have done about some languages or users of some languages.

I still remember a certain remark about hex programmers somewhere that Qwerty.55 got extremly pissed at, although later there was an apology about it.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Scipi on November 14, 2011, 03:01:54 pm
Honestly, I do think they have some good points. However, just because a language is easy (and for many, including myself, it's not) doesn't mean worthless things come out of it. (Case and point, PortalX, Graviter) Actually, in my experience with games, high quality Axe games totally beat all but the highest quality ASM games. (Again, from my experience)

Each language has its uses. Axe is designed for speedy development of games. It was made for programmers to make as high quality games as ASM, in a fifth of the time. (However, as with every language, there is no such thing as a perfect design or programmer)

Something I find personally funny to the Axe/ASM debate, is that I actually find ASM easier than Axe! ;D

So I agree, each language is capable of great things. It's not about what you're given before hand or how you go about it (though the experience of it is important) It's about the product. It's the same in professional development as well. 1. Make it work, 2. Make it fast, 3. Make it small. if one and two are taken care of in one fell swoop, then all the better. :P And if that's not your style, then just make something even awesomer in ASM! But don't bash the Axe programmer because of it.

As a side note, but I wonder how OPIA will influence this. O.O
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: parserp on November 14, 2011, 03:09:42 pm
I wholeheartedly agree DJ ;D
+1
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 14, 2011, 03:34:58 pm
JustCause, excellently put. Most languages have advantages and disadvantages to other languages and so the programmer picks the most appropriate tool for the task :)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Freyaday on November 14, 2011, 05:40:16 pm
I came here because of Axe. I had been programming in BASIC for a while and, when I heard about Axe, I was hesitant. I knew about the power (THE POWAH!) and what it could do if used wrong (Who am I, Uncle Ben?).
To cut the melodrama, I was afraid of crashing my calc. (and wrecking a few other things in the process)
But as I heard about all the awesome stuff Axe could do, I became more and more excited--GREEEEEEYYYYYYSCCCUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLAAAAAAAALLE!!!!! (It was cube runner that did it. I never actually downloaded, but I was so impressed by the screenshots and the hype I thought "Holy Crap, I wanna do that!")
So I got Axe.
And then I needed help.
I was trying to port a drawing program I had over to axe--or something. I dunno. I hesitated, for reasons that still don't make sense.
I still use BASIC occasionally, when I need to write a quick math program or something, because it's easy, and when you need the floats, you need the floats.
One of my favorite programs was a Basic program that made clamped cubic splines off of inputted points (no arg Input ftw), and I did the graphing manually, because I wanted to let you go backwards, which I did. Loop-de-loops! The only thing you couldn't do was have two consecutive points line up vertically. In otherwords, you couldn't go straight up, because vertical lines are not functions of x (SCIENCE!MATH!). I was so proud of it, and I had lots of fun playing with it, and you could not do that in Axe, not without a program much, much larger in size. You'd also have to use floats, because the precision required cannot be contained in a mere 16 bits.
But the program I was most proud of was a BASIC AI that played another BASIC game of mine. Unfortunately, I lost the selecting engine to it, but I am now trying to put it back together in my spare time.
I love Axe, because of what I can do. But sometimes, it isn't the right tool for the job. So, yeah.
Calcs FTW.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: tifreak on November 14, 2011, 06:14:35 pm
As someone that has remained neutral in the whole matter, I have to point out that I rather dislike the fact you blatantly pointed out in such a manner, and I quote:

Quote
However, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide.

And linking it directly to the Cemetech thread with that text.

Omnimaga was not once mentioned in his post, and to that end, wasn't saying people shouldn't use Axe.

I am rather sad to see that you would word it out in such a way, DJ.

The discussion on the thread has remained in an intelligent conversation with different people posting their views. It has not once turned in to an 'OMG YOU SHOULDN'T USE AXE IT SUCKS' thread.

Quote
Anyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games.

Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.

And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.

So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: qazz42 on November 14, 2011, 06:23:37 pm
I have to agree with tifreak here. It *was* a perfectly orderly and fine debate topic, ON CEMETECH, now it is portrayed as:

"LOL AXE IS ST00PIDZ AND OMNIMAGA SUXS BECAUSE N00BS. CEMETECH DCS ASM FTW!!!!!"

seriously, it is really close to, if not already, indirectly bashing cemetech. It is almost like you didn't even read the entire topic/post because you seemed to have missed the entire point of the thread in the first place
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 14, 2011, 06:33:43 pm
Indeed, the danger is that when an ideological leader of a site posts an opinion on a thread, especially when I feel that opinion is based on biased past history rather than a fair reading of the pros and cons presented in a very intelligent debate thread, members will often automatically agree rather than making their own judgments.  Luckily, I see some more free thinking here. I appreciate, for example, that Freyaday accurately read my point in the thread that Axe is a good tool for some jobs (grayscale games, for example) but is not a panacea.  Xeda as well says exactly what I was trying to get at in the thread.

Quote from: DJ
Another thing that I found ironic is how after DCS added xLIB backwards compatibility, Kerm encouraged people to use ASM libs for BASIC coders, while years ago, the very same person would discourage the usage of such libs in BASIC. (See Metroid II Evolution news comments on ticalc.org)
Yes indeed, I used to be strongly anti-Hybrid BASIC.  I have since changed my opinion, since over time I saw the value of such libraries, and it was my newfound appreciation that led to their inclusion in Doors CS 7.

Quote from: albert
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.
Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.

Quote from: Hayleia
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at it
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
You'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular.  Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community.  I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back.  I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.

DJ_O: Regarding your first post in the topic, I encourage you at least to have the courage to name me directly instead of saying things like "some people" repeatedly.  You'll noticed that only I expressed any reservations at all about Axe, and if you read through the topic, you'll see that a very high-brow, mature, and intelligent discussion was being conducted on both sides of the table.  Well-thought-out posts were being made, and everyone was being respectful of each other as programmers and as individuals.  I'm sorry to see that you elected to imply that Cemetech as a whole was at fault despite my disclaimer warning that I am Kerm, I am not Cemetech, and that Cemetech by definitely has a wide variety of views on Axe ranging from abject adoration to skepticism, with each member having the freedom to make their own decision.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: parserp on November 14, 2011, 06:36:35 pm
It didn't seem that bad, I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up over. ???
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 14, 2011, 06:45:21 pm
It didn't seem that bad, I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up over. ???
I agree, I thought we were holding a very respectful and intelligent discussion until this thread was brought to my attention. :( I'm saddened to see that from DJ_O's perspective, it was neither respectful, reasoned, nor intelligent.  DJ_O, please let me know if there's anything I can do to improve your view of the thread in question as well as of as 12-year community pillar such as myself, other than changing my opinion of Axe's role in the community as a language for writing games.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 14, 2011, 06:51:10 pm
I agree as well with parser padwan. To be honest, the one thread on TICalc was a bit out of hand, but otherwise I didn't see much that was bad. I do think that it wasn't fair what some people said on Cemetech, but they argued their points and others counter argued and it seemed like not too many people got worked up about it. I was even surprised at the openmindedness there. But otherwise, it does seem like the arguments here and ideas are generally mature and openminded, too. Some people, though... they seem to have been some of those that got worked up about this petty debate and seem to be overreacting a bit (that is just my opinion).
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: alberthrocks on November 14, 2011, 08:45:00 pm
Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.

And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.

So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
Strongly agree - I actually agreed (along with a few others?) on IRC for the topic to be created, since people were discussing it that much, and so I can personally vouch for Axe. :) And so far, I don't see much community bashing (if any at all), which is good. There are a few people at Cemetech (ex-Omnimagans?) who might spark a community fight due to past biases, but so far, so good. :)

Quote from: albert
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.
Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.
I am glad that this debate was solely dependent on the basis of the language itself, not on communities or past experiences. :) The above feeling was only minor suspect after seeing a few other replies.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: LincolnB on November 14, 2011, 10:40:37 pm
Seriously, I use Axe ALL THE TIME (I haven't touched ASM and left BASIC a looooong time ago), so you might expect me of all people to get at least a little worked up about this, but really, I'm having a hard time getting mad at anyone. I don't think it's quite fair to get mad at DJ_O because I think in large part he made this topic for precautionary purposes mostly, so yeah. Keep in mind, all this is just something to keep an eye out for.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 14, 2011, 11:11:35 pm
As someone that has remained neutral in the whole matter, I have to point out that I rather dislike the fact you blatantly pointed out in such a manner, and I quote:

Quote
However, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide.

And linking it directly to the Cemetech thread with that text.

Omnimaga was not once mentioned in his post, and to that end, wasn't saying people shouldn't use Axe.

I am rather sad to see that you would word it out in such a way, DJ.
False. Totally false. I pointed to the Cemetech thread because that was the most recent example of non-ASM language vs ASM generalizations that I saw occuring. The most recent similar issue that occured elsewhere than Cemetech was 6 years ago. I could not find anything recent on TI-BD, TI-Freakware and United-TI. I do not like being accused of saying that Cemetech bashes anything, when through my post, I refer many times to "some people".
The discussion on the thread has remained in an intelligent conversation with different people posting their views. It has not once turned in to an 'OMG YOU SHOULDN'T USE AXE IT SUCKS' thread.
The Ashbad quote in Kerm's post tells me otherwise. He didn't directly said nobody should use it, but it was pretty close, and I quote:
Quote
[Ashbad] While I have my complaints about Grammer (I still am unimpressed with the fact that simple cellular autonoma routines built into the language...) I am personally hopeful it'll be the cause of Axe losing it's heated popularity
While he doesn't want everyone to stop using Axe, he hopes it becomes as less popular as possible

Quote
Anyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games.

Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.
They were not picked on directly, but generalizations were made:

Quote
<KermM_> I dislike that people use it as an excuse for not learning z80 ASM
Quote
[Ashbad] But, the problem is that half of the community treats them as "uber hax0rs"
Quote
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them
This is exactly like when some people say "BASIC games sucks", implying that every existing BASIC games (including Pokémon Purple, FFTOM2 and Illusiat 13) sucks. What about Axe coders like Builderboy, Leafiness0, Runer112 and some others? If someone said BASIC games sucks I would be offended since I devoted a lot of time making some that are as good as possible, unlike many games on ticalc.org.

And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.
I have read that and knew it already before you mention it. Also even the individual users are not Cemetech: If one invididual there bashes Axe, it doesn't mean Cemetech does. Hence why my post refers to "some people" (as I mentionned above).

Quote
So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
I never did that. I did criticise him a bit, but I posted a link to the entire discussion (if you know how to read, you should have seen it. I even linked to it TWICE!) so everyone can read it all by themselves. I also linked to old ticalc.org examples so people see that this issue is not something from yesterday.

Before accusing me of trying to bash Cemetech or anything like that, you should re-read my post like I did with the 3 or so posts I saw on Cemetech when I initially posted this, because this was clearly not my intention. My intention was to bring up the whole BASIC/Axe vs ASM generalizations that I had to go through before and that is still going on in the community. Thank you.

I have rated down your post because it was a blantant accusation towards me and I wonder if it wasn't an attempt at making me mad by lashing at me.

DJ_O: Regarding your first post in the topic, I encourage you at least to have the courage to name me directly instead of saying things like "some people" repeatedly.  You'll noticed that only I expressed any reservations at all about Axe, and if you read through the topic, you'll see that a very high-brow, mature, and intelligent discussion was being conducted on both sides of the table.  Well-thought-out posts were being made, and everyone was being respectful of each other as programmers and as individuals.  I'm sorry to see that you elected to imply that Cemetech as a whole was at fault despite my disclaimer warning that I am Kerm, I am not Cemetech, and that Cemetech by definitely has a wide variety of views on Axe ranging from abject adoration to skepticism, with each member having the freedom to make their own decision.
The reason why I did not name you directly is because in the past when I gave names directly, it made things worse. I did not go "Cemetech said that" either because the people involved are not Cemetech, as you and tifreak said. I admit however that the Ashbad comments kinda blew a fuse so when I wrote my post last night I was already irritated to begin with. However I do not like the accusation from tifreak implying that I am blatantly trying to bash people or trying to start drama.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: TravisE on November 14, 2011, 11:29:55 pm
Without speaking for anyone else, I think it is entirely possible that people could have honestly misunderstood the intention of linking to the Cemetech thread.  Even I wasn't totally clear on whether you were referring to the thread as a whole, posts in the thread, or just the comments from IRC in the first post, and this was when I read the post before anyone had replied yet. It seems several people have misunderstood, and not all of them may be attempting to purposely falsely accuse; they could have simply misunderstood, especially given past incidents where there were misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: qazz42 on November 15, 2011, 06:55:15 am
ah, but the thing is that the entire discussion on cemetech was actually a peacefull discussion with each side giving their side of the story and everyone respecting each other's decision. I would think the topic on cemetech was not peaceful and was a bunch of snobs bashing axe if I only had read this topic.

/opinion
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 15, 2011, 07:16:18 am
@qazz42: This topic was also rather peaceful. I admit I skimmed through a bunch of posts, but give us evidence of your claims
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 15, 2011, 08:45:54 am
Xeda: Exacerbated by some of the veiled and not-so-veiled (thanks, Hayleia, whomever you are, and of course DJ_O), I found this thread to be very antagonistic and exactly the sort of bashing that I had believe Omnimaga did not allow. Qazz42: indeed, which is why I encourage anyone reading this thread to read the Cemetech thread as well and form their own opinion.  The fact that a user who frequents Omnimaga more than Cemetech (alberthro) was one of the individuals encouraging us to open a frank, respectful dialog should also help people see that any perceived insults lie more in the mind of the beholder than the participants.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Happybobjr on November 15, 2011, 08:56:49 am
Too lazy to read everything posted here but...

Axe is great.  There are little to no cons in it, as it provides what the people that use it need.  If they want to learn something deeper, then they can, but i see no reason to learn asm just to never use it again.  some use it, but there is no reason to make it seem required.

I think the biggest problem is ti.
Once they work out all the computer connection problems, i will be happy :P
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Stefan Bauwens on November 15, 2011, 10:55:32 am
I actually can understand DJ_O's first post quite good. He seems frustrated after reading your post, Kerm, and so do I.

If AXE wouldn't have been created, I think much less people would have joined the community, just because it seems to them that ASM is too difficult to learn for them. If a new program language is created which makes things go easier without having to learn much more it's obvious to me to go for that language. I don't know ASM and it doesn't seem to be the easiest language to learn. But do I have to learn it? Do I have to know that language to be able to accomplish what I want to do? To make the programs I want to do? No, I don't think so. For me, I'll have enough on AXE, Newprog and ti-basic. Does this make me a bad programmer? I don't think so. I will know less at programming than others. So what? :) The cool thing is, I don't need to know more. And since when must all programmers be hackers? If I'm no hacker does this make me less? Am I kicked out for that reason? That would be unfair in my eyes.
Many people here(I think) do programming for their hobby and don't think of having it as their job. If they do they most likely will have to use C, so then I can understand it that it's actually better to learn a 'real' language such as C.
Quigibo did a great job making AXE. He made a new language that in some way could replace ASM and C! People who aren't great programmers have the right to be able to program a nice game. And it isn't like you're not a good programmer if you know AXE.

It seems to me that some ASM programmers are jealous that 'simple people', unlike them, can make GREAT games and programs without going trough what they did.
Actually reading what Kerm quoted of himself in that first post(on cemetech) it sounds like programming shouldn't be made easy:
Quote
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them
If it would be like that, you actually forbid programmers with not good skills to make good games. I totally don't agree with you and I hope you change your opinion, which you are allowed to keep though.

If the ASM community looks like that I'm not really attracted to join it. :(
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Hayleia on November 15, 2011, 10:55:54 am
Quote from: Hayleia
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at it
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
You'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular.  Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community.  I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back.  I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.
(Sorry for the delay for the answer and sorry if my English is not good, I am French.)

So I'll explain better the situation:

Omnimaga is, in one way, Axe's home, and the same way, Cemetech is DoorsCS' home.
On Cemetech, you criticized Axe.
On Omnimaga, I said that some of your critics could apply to DoorsCS.
So we basically did the same thing.

Result of my action, you feel insulted.
So don't you think Axe coders can feel insulted by what you said too ?

I did not intend to insult you at all and you did not intend to insult anyone either, but that's how people feel, and you now know exactly how they feel (that was the aim of my post, not to "cowardly insult you in your back", moreover I use DoorsCS).
...any perceived insults lie more in the mind of the beholder than the participants.

And of course I'd like to join Cemetech. Notice that I have been having an account for months, but I'm lost through the menus and even with the link I did not manage to figure out how to introduce myself .__.° (this is not a stupid excuse: this is true)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 15, 2011, 12:18:56 pm
ah, but the thing is that the entire discussion on cemetech was actually a peacefull discussion with each side giving their side of the story and everyone respecting each other's decision. I would think the topic on cemetech was not peaceful and was a bunch of snobs bashing axe if I only had read this topic.

/opinion
One issue is how years ago there were many anti-BASIC discussions elsewhere and in some cases they were intended to single out BASIC programmers and when I read Ashbad's quoted IRC post in the topic, I felt Axe programmers were being singled out as community figures or treated as inferior beings. Axe vs ASM did not happen as much as BASIC vs ASM so far but I feared it might go too far, hence why I did some sort of wake up call with my thread to share my opinion and past experiences, in case some people later end up simply splitting the community in half again, turning non-Axe and Axe users into two enemy clans or something.

Also because of past bad experiences, it's hard to make the difference between some comments that are intentionally offensive and not, and since I like Axe and a lot of good Axe programmers frequents Omni (and some Cemetech), my initial reaction was the same as with BASIC coders: defend them and the language.

In no way I meant to start any fight. If anything, what I thought is that it was you and tifreak who were trying to start one, which I hope is not the case. In the past, I've blown up a lot and when I endured enough, I end up ragequitting. After reading your post, I wondered if it wasn't what you attempted to cause too.

Also to be honest, if the topic on Cemetech is in no way bad including Ashbad's first quote, I do not see how we shouldn't be allowed to do the same with Doors CS7 (although I don't see the point, considering it's another pretty solid programming tool and I've been fighting to convert Ion/Mirage users I find to DCS). After all, the comments saying most people treat Axe coders as uber haxors and most axe coders use Axe as a crutch were posted in their back too, sort of. I'm not saying Omnimaga should encourage language debates, but rather the fact that if some people feel attacked, it's obvious you will see some similar reactions. I'm glad both topics remained civil in general, though, which is why before initially posting it, I tried to make sure I am calm enough (although it seems it was still seen as some sort of overeaction by a few people).
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: lkj on November 15, 2011, 12:36:42 pm
I don't think you're only a good programmer if you know ASM. It's obvious that if you make e.g. a game in ASM instead of making the same game in a higher level language you're a better programmer, but if you make a program with more possibilities in a higher level language in the same time you'd need to make an ASM program with less possibilities, why should you choose ASM? For many types of programs it's more a question of what you prefer than of real advantages.
In addition, programming skills alone don't make good programs.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: tifreak on November 15, 2011, 12:38:36 pm
DJ, I wasn't attempting to start any fights. I was pointing out that it looked as if you were trying to say Cemetech and Kerm were bad for starting up a debate on the usefulness of Axe. That is what I was pointing out. Even if you didn't intend to make the post like that, it looks like an indirect bash at Cemetech, and that was rather unfair in my eyes. So long as you are not bashing, then there is no problem.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 15, 2011, 12:41:11 pm
I don't think you're only a good programmer if you know ASM. It's obvious that if you make e.g. a game in ASM instead of making the same game in a higher level language you're a better programmer, but if you make a program with more possibilities in a higher level language in the same time you'd need to make an ASM program with less possibilities, why should you choose ASM? For many types of programs it's more a question of what you prefer than of real advantages.
In addition, programming skills alone don't make good programs.
It's a bit like me with Sony ACID Pro 7 and MTV Music Generator 1. I know how to use both in general and Sony ACID is a MUCH more superior (and professional) tool than MTV Music Generator, but in Sony ACID it takes so incredibly long to make a song and make sure it sounds how I want that it impairs my creativity. As a result, I switched to professional tools in mid 2008 to make music, but finally I found myself going back to the original MTVMG again because I felt more comfortable with it. My MTVMG1 songs sounds much better than the songs I made with any other programs too, IMHO. The rest is even more repetitive.
DJ, I wasn't attempting to start any fights. I was pointing out that it looked as if you were trying to say Cemetech and Kerm were bad for starting up a debate on the usefulness of Axe. That is what I was pointing out. Even if you didn't intend to make the post like that, it looks like an indirect bash at Cemetech, and that was rather unfair in my eyes. So long as you are not bashing, then there is no problem.
@Tifreak thank you. I assure you I was not trying to do so. It just seems that no matter how hard I try to rant about a TI community issue in a calm way, it's still seen as an overreaction or a fight starting attempt.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 15, 2011, 01:01:59 pm
lkj, if you read the thread in question, you'll see that no one was claiming either that only ASM programmers are good, or that Axe programmers are bad programmers.  Instead, the main point that everyone, Cemetech regulars and Omnimaga regulars alike, respectfully and amicably agreed upon, was that it behooves programmers to pick the correct language for what they're trying to make.  Clearly BASIC is not good for trying to make complex grayscale games, ASM is not good for writing floating-point math programs, and Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.  I strongly invite you to read through the thread in question on Cemetech from beginning to end and see if your opinion of it changes.  I caution you not to accept someone else's characterization without freely deciding for yourself. :)

Quote from: Hayleia
Omnimaga is, in one way, Axe's home, and the same way, Cemetech is DoorsCS' home.
On Cemetech, you criticized Axe.
On Omnimaga, I said that some of your critics could apply to DoorsCS.
So we basically did the same thing.
One of the misunderstandings here is that the cultures on Cemetech and Omnimaga are quite different.  On Omnimaga, bashing is forbidden, so people tend to compliment projects and offer only positive suggestions regardless of the project and author, which is fine, that's the type of community (well, except for years of threads like this criticizing me, Cemetech, and Cemetech's members ;)). I feel that a lot of that tradition comes from the general audience of Omnimaga, who tend to be younger, generally high school age or below, and who perhaps need those sort of rules in place to maintain harmony, which seems successful, again with the exception of threads like this one.  Cemetech, on the other hand, tries to promote more open discussion, including, where appropriate, criticisms.  We especially like people to speak their minds, develop their own opinions, and think for themselves.  Fittingly, the Cemetech crowd tends to be older programmers, from high school through college through professionals; I myself am a PhD student, as you may or may not know.  When we see a programmer attempting a project that may be outside the scope of his skill or patience, we try to gently push him or her towards a project that may be better suited to his or her current abilities, and will thus give him more experience to later tackle his original project and be more likely to succeed with it.  We have found that this is a very effective approach in the past, and even though people may balk at it at first, they almost universally look back on the experience later and thank us for helping them maintain a realistic view.  Needless to say, it takes a more mature individual, for better or worse, to interpret negative feedback as constructive rather than seeing it as outright criticism or insulting.  That's not to say one shouldn't respond in kind to outright insults, but one gains a certain understanding that some criticisms are intended in the best interest of the programmer in question.  At Cemetech, I try to encourage everyone to think for themselves and form their own opinions, even if they may offend me or each other, because they're just opinions, and everyone is welcome to their own.  Hence, if I say "I feel ____ about Axe", that's my prerogative, and it's up to the other members of the community to either agree or disagree, which they're equally welcome to.  Throughout the course of a discussion or debate, people's opinions may be affected, but if at the end of the debate everyone does not agree, that's fine.  Therefore, the difference between your post and mine was that I openly discussed my particular opinions, and invited people to respond with their own opinions.  I didn't insult any specific language or any specific programmers; the only individual that I singled out, Quigibo, was in a positive light, to complement his programming.  I felt that your characterization of one specific project, though it would have been welcome in a post at Cemetech where I could respond to your concerns and either contradict them or agree that Doors CS had those shortcomings, was instead intended as a hurtful response, even though it was hopefully in the heat of the moment, and was contrary to Omnimaga's anti-bashing rules.  To conclude, I feel that over and over in the past 9 years, the rules of Omnimaga (for example, no "bashing") have been attempted to be applied to the community at large (for example, criticizing people and sites for what they say on Cemetech, Revsoft, TIFreakware, MaxCoderz, TI-News.net, and ticalc.org, among others), and that this thread is a good example of that mistake.  Unfortunately, many such as lkj are inclined to agree with the original poster, even if they may not have gotten a chance to form their own independent opinions.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 15, 2011, 01:27:27 pm
Kerm I think the thing is since Cemetech is the only calculator forum other than Omnimaga that still has signifiant enough activity to allow a debate or heated discussion and that Omnimaga has strict rules about criticism, it's inevitable that if anything we don't like is gonna happen elsewhere than Omnimaga, it's on Cemetech. It doesn't mean it's Cemetech as a whole, it's just that the higher the activity, the higher the chances this happens.

Of course, however, the mentality of both sites are quite different in general, so that's inevitably gonna cause some clashes from time to time if someone disagrees with the other or misinterpretations (Like last night when Aes_sedia said I need to get a life, then later said it was just a joke). Some things are similar like making sure people don't start projects outside of their scope, because I myself tried to make sure some newer members don't do that, but we are fewer that will do that, so with the large volume of posts that comes in sometimes, inevitably we can't keep up. It also doesn't help that my experience towards programming isn't as high either.

Also with this thread I did not intend to apply Omnimaga rules on Cemetech Kerm. Of course on Cemetech more controversial topics might be allowed, but I simply felt some Axe programmers were seen as people with little programming skills and the Axe language felt attacked for me by one of Ashbad's remark, so see this topic as me and us being on the defensive. IMHO we should be allowed to defend ourselves and if anything was misunderstood (which was finally the case), then we clear things out. I guess it could be seen as trying to apply Omni rules on Cemetech because of the complaints about the thread there, but it's not the intention. The last time I tried to do that was in 2009, on TIBD. From 2006-09 that was my last ditch attempt to save the community because I felt there was abuse and that it would eventually kill the community. This was a huge mistake, because doing so had opposite effects. Afterward, I simply decided to move my entire focus to Omnimaga itself.

Anyway I'M thinking about locking this soon, since it seems to have been taken more badly than anything else despite my attempt to make it sound otherwise. However, I wanted everyone to defend themselves, if needed, and if anything needs to be added, I wanted to let people do so before any lock occurs, so this remains open for the rest of the afternoon.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: alberthrocks on November 15, 2011, 03:08:44 pm
Wow.... did I really cause all of this? O_O I apologize - I'm terribly sorry for all this happening, even if I caused it indirectly. :(

Well, let's explain my comment above:
This all started with a debate on IRC (specifically, #cemetech), with a discussion on Axe's problems. After I defended Axe a bit, a few friends came over to work on a collab AP English project. After coming back to see the highlight, I suggested that this be made into a topic:
Code: [Select]
17:52 < alberthro> KermM_, post a topic about the stuffs we talked about today and I might reply :) I'm busy with a collab project atm, so...
A few hours later, the topic was made. I thought it would be a good chance to fight on the Axe sides of things and have it stick (found here (http://cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=168049#168049)). I did not realize that it would explode into community bashing, which was not supposed to be the case.

The good thing that has come out of this is that the Axe side (kinda) won, and that the topic of Axe vs. ASM is (finally?) done and dead. If anyone still has an issue to take up with Axe, that particular thread should be read.

Again, I would like to apologize for my actions. I did not anticipate this topic to become a full out flame war, and should have had the foresight to see that occur.

The topic itself does not, and should not, have any community bashing. (The IRC chat, however, did - one user in particular who I will not name.) There is one reply to that Cemetech topic that is borderline, but I will leave it to you guys to find such person.

If KermM permits, I can post the full IRC logs from that incident/debate. (I have a VPS that does some pretty nice logging, so...)

EDIT: Reviewing the logs from before, before I joined, that particular person was on a full out rampage against Axe and this community... :P I think the issue should be settled once the logs are released. I've already dumped out the portion of the IRC log that relates to this incident - I just need the OK.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 15, 2011, 05:49:51 pm
Quote from: alberthro
The good thing that has come out of this is that the Axe side (kinda) won, and that the topic of Axe vs. ASM is (finally?) done and dead. If anyone still has an issue to take up with Axe, that particular thread should be read.
I don't think it's a war, there's no winner and no loser.  As has been stated, the point of the thread was to discuss various viewpoints, see what other people had to say, and get a chance to debate each others' viewpoints while seeing some other perspectives.  Since that happened, and a passionate but respectful discussion was maintained, I'd say we all won.  The only people who lose are those that see attacks in intellectual debate, which based on the later posts in this thread, it seems no one is doing anymore.  I don't quite understand why you're apologizing for encouraging a frank and open debate about a set of programming languages, any more than I would expect you to apologize for encouraging people to debate C vs. Java or Python vs. Perl.  I also see no reason to point fingers at one particular user who may have had biased actions, since the overwhelming majority of the debaters conducted themselves maturely and professionally.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: LincolnB on November 15, 2011, 06:09:23 pm
yeah, I think we all just need to kinda...chill out. Peace, brothers. Haters will hate, whatever, Axe/BASIC/ASM programmers will program their fav language, regardless of if you show them a rock solid argument for why you think it's not as classy or elegant or blah as another language. I guess it's more about yourself, how you choose to react to things. IMO, language debates never really create anything but contention, not because people say mean things, but because people over react...anyways.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 15, 2011, 06:30:06 pm
Yeah IMHO people should program the language they are satisfied with. Of course they should try other alternatives too, but in the end, if it worsen their programming experiences, it's best that they revert back to previous languages they prefered.

As for the logs discussed in Alberthro post, I don't think it's necessary to post them, especially if it's just one single person or if it's someone who got permbanned here and said bad stuff in revenge. If someone absolutely wish the death of Omnimaga as it is and is ready to do everything to discourage anyone from joining us in our back or decides to spam our forum in revenge, it's his call.

Anyway, topic lock is coming at 23:59:59 PM, unless I'm playing Halo 10th anniversary or Starcraft II, then. Starcraft II is far more superior to calcs and everyone should play as Zerg because Terran is OP. j/k
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Yeong on November 15, 2011, 06:35:50 pm
Quote
Starcraft II is far more superior to calcs and everyone should play as Zerg because Terran is OP. j/k
lol
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Freyaday on November 15, 2011, 11:11:18 pm
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.
Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 15, 2011, 11:54:51 pm
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.
Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Go for it. :) I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Also, since it's much easier to hate people you don't know personally and imagine malice that they don't feel, I encourage you all to join the 58th weekly Have Calc, Will Program session Wednesday evening at 8pm Eastern time and chat with us in person; as usual we'll be discussing programming help, anyone's recent projects, and continuing to enliven the community.   I certainly would be happy to talk to anyone who has possible misconceptions about anything.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Darl181 on November 16, 2011, 12:03:21 am
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.
Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Iirc alberthrocks and ephan did a joint project on one, not sure what happened to it tho.
Edit: link (http://ourl.ca/10139)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: aeTIos on November 16, 2011, 12:07:50 am
I did too but it died very early and sircmpwn managed to create a command line from which you can run no-shell programs.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: jacobly on November 16, 2011, 12:47:28 am
ASM is not good for writing floating-point math programs
If by floating-point you happen to mean binary floating-point, and not that awkward base 10 format, then coincidentally I happen to be doing that right now. :)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Hayleia on November 16, 2011, 01:22:33 am
@Kerm
You are right in a lot of points:
-I didn't know about the different cultures
-My post was a lot more violent than yours, and aimed you a lot, instead of being non specific
-My post was hurtful, but NOT a bashing post

My post was not really meant to be hurt you but a little bit ;). I wanted you to feel what people felt when you criticized Axe. That is all. I already told you that I am using DoorsCS, so I don't think it is that bad. It was not meant to be an insult or a true hurtful post, more like a "now you know how they feel".

And you really want me to do that topic on Cemetech ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: KermMartian on November 16, 2011, 02:10:50 am
Yes, I really do.  I want to know which part of the user experience feel sluggish to you so I can either help you figure out how all the key shortcuts might help, discover that it's nothing I can fix, or find it's something I can optimize.  And I'd enjoy the opportunity to enumerate the different pieces that fit together to make up that 48KB and why I believe it's packed to the bursting point, with not an ounce of fluff.  Thanks for your response, Hayleia, and I'm glad you see my points.  I'm also happy to have educated you about the differences between the people who spend more time at Cemetech and those that spend more time here.  I hope we'll continue to see you around.  I'm glad to hear that your post was meant to not be bashing (but was meant a little hurtful?).  Anyway, as we agreed, with few exceptions the posts in the original thread were opinions, even criticisms (and complements), but criticisms and compliments that are all opinions, and thus valid as opinions.  Thanks for clarifying your motives.

Jacobly: I mean sign-exponent-mantissa, like the TI floating-point format and IEEE754.

Darl: Aye, I believe it took them >1KB to replicate the basic functionality of a DCS-style mouse, at which point they decided to instead make an Axiom wrapping the DCS GUI functions.  Unfortunately, it seems to have stalled.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: AngelFish on November 16, 2011, 03:07:38 am
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.
Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.

*GUI API

Axe makes GUIs relatively easy. However, APIs become exceedingly difficult once you start dealing with the relative of low level access Axe gives you. I've tried and failed at making a half decent GUI API before :P

EDIT: On second thought, my current project would make it far easier...
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: jacobly on November 16, 2011, 03:12:41 am
Jacobly: I mean sign-exponent-mantissa, like the TI floating-point format and IEEE754.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my post. I actually was talking about sign-exponent-mantissa floating point numbers.
What I was referring to in my post was that TI floating-point numbers are base 10 and IEEE754 are base 2.
I'm not exactly using one of the IEEE754 specifications atm, but a 24 bit version split up into 1-7-16 bits.

Edit:
Spoiler For screenshot:
(http://img.removedfromgame.com/imgs/fp04.gif)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 16, 2011, 03:16:34 am
You know, that mouse talk almost makes me want to go on with that DCS Illusiat 5 idea at one point. :P
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Stefan Bauwens on November 16, 2011, 05:00:26 am
...The only people who lose are those that see attacks in intellectual debate, which based on the later posts in this thread, it seems no one is doing anymore...
Is my post one of them? I probably did feel attacked in some way, because I have become an Axe programmer and I don't like it that I wouldn't get credit for the programming in my games, which I think I deserve. I still haven't changed my mind about posting that post. Just so you know that.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Happybobjr on November 16, 2011, 08:03:13 am
Ti should just make another language.  We really need a common enimy here.  (no spell check as you can see :/.... I am a math person :P)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Xeda112358 on November 16, 2011, 08:11:51 am
agreed ^_^
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 16, 2011, 12:13:04 pm
Personally I think the biggest disadvantage Axe and to a lesser extent hybrid/on-calc ASM has over other languages right now is that if your program contains errors and you didn't backup, you can lose your entire progress. However I think that it's up to the user to do the effort of learning to backup his progress often on a computer while programming. When people use some judgement, the on-calc programming becomes an advantage in some ways (being able to code anywhere, for example).

Granted, on a computer you should backup too, but I mean in Axe or lib-enhanced BASIC games you are at higher risk of data loss, since most programming errors will lead to a RAM clear or corruption during testing, while on the computer the data losses are generally caused by laptop failures.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: Stefan Bauwens on November 16, 2011, 12:30:51 pm
Personally I think the biggest disadvantage Axe and to a lesser extent hybrid/on-calc ASM has over other languages right now is that if your program contains errors and you didn't backup, you can lose your entire progress. However I think that it's up to the user to do the effort of learning to backup his progress often on a computer while programming. When people use some judgement, the on-calc programming becomes an advantage in some ways (being able to code anywhere, for example).

Granted, on a computer you should backup too, but I mean in Axe or lib-enhanced BASIC games you are at higher risk of data loss, since most programming errors will lead to a RAM clear or corruption during testing, while on the computer the data losses are generally caused by laptop failures.
Not if you set the safety in Axe Parser to 'Auto Backup' :)
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 16, 2011, 01:07:20 pm
This feature doesn't work 100% of the time. Sometimes the backup gets corrupted.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: MGOS on November 16, 2011, 01:35:06 pm
This feature doesn't work 100% of the time. Sometimes the backup gets corrupted.

That never happened to me - there were some bugs with that backup, but in V1.0.5 they are fixed I think.

The most important feature (for me) of Axe is, that the executable is only one program. You do not need Doors, xLib, Celtic or Grammar.
And, because I usually program for people who don't know much about the TI-83+, so if anything currupts, you don't need to set all these up / install them again.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 16, 2011, 02:41:11 pm
Yeah they were supposedly fixed, but recently somebody reported that his backups were corrupted again. He might have used an old version, but I doubt it, considering he submitted a bug report.

Also yeah I guess the compiled language nature of Axe can help on the amount of sub-programs, although a lot of people play Super Mario and stuff, so in the end they already have Doors or Mirage and in the cases where they got Doors, then they can also run BASIC games that requires it.

Not that games with multiple files are a bad thing, though, because IMHO we shouldn't judge a program quality solely based on the language/tools it was made in, on its file size (unless the size:features ratio is too high) and the amount of sub-programs. I remember 2 years ago somebody joined Omni and started insulting the work some BASIC coders like myself and ASM coders like tr1p1ea because their games were not just one single file or used pictures. To him, no matter the amount of features a game had, the minute it had 2 files or more or used a picture, that game was not worth existing. That person got banned quick, too. Axe for example limits games to 1 flash page or 24 KB, so inevitably, complex games like an RPG are gonna be split into multiple files.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: shkaboinka on March 06, 2012, 04:18:48 pm
Honestly, I do think they have some good points. However, just because a language is easy (and for many, including myself, it's not) doesn't mean worthless things come out of it. (Case and point, PortalX, Graviter) Actually, in my experience with games, high quality Axe games totally beat all but the highest quality ASM games. (Again, from my experience)

Each language has its uses. Axe is designed for speedy development of games. It was made for programmers to make as high quality games as ASM, in a fifth of the time. (However, as with every language, there is no such thing as a perfect design or programmer)

Something I find personally funny to the Axe/ASM debate, is that I actually find ASM easier than Axe! ;D

So I agree, each language is capable of great things. It's not about what you're given before hand or how you go about it (though the experience of it is important) It's about the product. It's the same in professional development as well. 1. Make it work, 2. Make it fast, 3. Make it small. if one and two are taken care of in one fell swoop, then all the better. :P And if that's not your style, then just make something even awesomer in ASM! But don't bash the Axe programmer because of it.

As a side note, but I wonder how OPIA will influence this. O.O

The hope is that OPIA (http://tinyurl.com/z80opia) will be to z80 what C/++ is to everything bigger! I'm quite certain that there will be nothing closer to assembly (for TI z80) that provides all the high-level stuff in place of it (or along with it). OPIA will not be what Axe or Grammer is; but also, nothing will be what OPIA is either :) Thanks, Homer-16, for including my project!! :D
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: aeTIos on March 06, 2012, 04:28:18 pm
WHY
Is everyone busy with NECROPOSTING all the time?
Dudes, PLEASE check datestamps.
Title: Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on March 06, 2012, 04:35:53 pm
Yeah I noticed the recent upsurge in necroposting lately. X.x On top of that it happens in 2010-11 threads, not the minus world, so it's not due to the board merge.

That said, on the topic of Axe vs ASM vs BASIC vs Grammer vs OPIA vs everything else, there was another Axe vs everything incident elsewhere and while it remained somewhat clean of bashing, there were a lot of generalizations and false accusations being done towards the entire Axe programmer group and I think the person even got warned for them. It was in French, though, so not many people here would understand, not to mention I'M not sure if the topic exists anymore.

Another thing I just remembered too that I should probably have cited as example in the first post is this X.x http://tichessteamhq.yuku.com/topic/1577/ticalc-org-POTY-voting-recommendations