*cough*and spelling :P*cough*well, it's kinda hard to fix that (at least, me)
How is that different from any other language and library? I do a lot of programming in C#, does that mean that the only person who really did any work was the language designers and library writers? Obviously not. If there's a higher level language that exists and makes development faster and easier, I don't see any reason not to use it. Should people learn ASM? Yes. Should they have to stick to it then? No. Should it matter to anyone else what language someone else prefers to write their software in? No--as long as the language isn't getting in the way (or you have to support the code).
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCSWell to be honest, the negative Axe remarks started to come immediately after Doors CS7 added backwards compatibility with xLIB and added new commands for BASIC coders. Granted, the executables are much smaller because they're interpreted, but the speed is slowed down by the BASIC code present in the program. Basically both got different advantages/disadvantages. Right before Doors CS added BASIC tools, most Axe comments were positive.
<KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
<KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
However, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide.
Anyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games.
Another thing that I found ironic is how after DCS added xLIB backwards compatibility, Kerm encouraged people to use ASM libs for BASIC coders, while years ago, the very same person would discourage the usage of such libs in BASIC. (See Metroid II Evolution news comments on ticalc.org)Yes indeed, I used to be strongly anti-Hybrid BASIC. I have since changed my opinion, since over time I saw the value of such libraries, and it was my newfound appreciation that led to their inclusion in Doors CS 7.
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at itYou'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular. Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community. I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back. I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
<KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
<KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
It didn't seem that bad, I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up over. ???I agree, I thought we were holding a very respectful and intelligent discussion until this thread was brought to my attention. :( I'm saddened to see that from DJ_O's perspective, it was neither respectful, reasoned, nor intelligent. DJ_O, please let me know if there's anything I can do to improve your view of the thread in question as well as of as 12-year community pillar such as myself, other than changing my opinion of Axe's role in the community as a language for writing games.
Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.Strongly agree - I actually agreed (along with a few others?) on IRC for the topic to be created, since people were discussing it that much, and so I can personally vouch for Axe. :) And so far, I don't see much community bashing (if any at all), which is good. There are a few people at Cemetech (ex-Omnimagans?) who might spark a community fight due to past biases, but so far, so good. :)
And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.
So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
I am glad that this debate was solely dependent on the basis of the language itself, not on communities or past experiences. :) The above feeling was only minor suspect after seeing a few other replies.Quote from: albertI have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.
As someone that has remained neutral in the whole matter, I have to point out that I rather dislike the fact you blatantly pointed out in such a manner, and I quote:False. Totally false. I pointed to the Cemetech thread because that was the most recent example of non-ASM language vs ASM generalizations that I saw occuring. The most recent similar issue that occured elsewhere than Cemetech was 6 years ago. I could not find anything recent on TI-BD, TI-Freakware and United-TI. I do not like being accused of saying that Cemetech bashes anything, when through my post, I refer many times to "some people".QuoteHowever, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide.
And linking it directly to the Cemetech thread with that text.
Omnimaga was not once mentioned in his post, and to that end, wasn't saying people shouldn't use Axe.
I am rather sad to see that you would word it out in such a way, DJ.
The discussion on the thread has remained in an intelligent conversation with different people posting their views. It has not once turned in to an 'OMG YOU SHOULDN'T USE AXE IT SUCKS' thread.The Ashbad quote in Kerm's post tells me otherwise. He didn't directly said nobody should use it, but it was pretty close, and I quote:
[Ashbad] While I have my complaints about Grammer (I still am unimpressed with the fact that simple cellular autonoma routines built into the language...) I am personally hopeful it'll be the cause of Axe losing it's heated popularityWhile he doesn't want everyone to stop using Axe, he hopes it becomes as less popular as possible
They were not picked on directly, but generalizations were made:QuoteAnyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games.
Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.
<KermM_> I dislike that people use it as an excuse for not learning z80 ASM
[Ashbad] But, the problem is that half of the community treats them as "uber hax0rs"
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for themThis is exactly like when some people say "BASIC games sucks", implying that every existing BASIC games (including Pokémon Purple, FFTOM2 and Illusiat 13) sucks. What about Axe coders like Builderboy, Leafiness0, Runer112 and some others? If someone said BASIC games sucks I would be offended since I devoted a lot of time making some that are as good as possible, unlike many games on ticalc.org.
And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.I have read that and knew it already before you mention it. Also even the individual users are not Cemetech: If one invididual there bashes Axe, it doesn't mean Cemetech does. Hence why my post refers to "some people" (as I mentionned above).
So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.I never did that. I did criticise him a bit, but I posted a link to the entire discussion (if you know how to read, you should have seen it. I even linked to it TWICE!) so everyone can read it all by themselves. I also linked to old ticalc.org examples so people see that this issue is not something from yesterday.
DJ_O: Regarding your first post in the topic, I encourage you at least to have the courage to name me directly instead of saying things like "some people" repeatedly. You'll noticed that only I expressed any reservations at all about Axe, and if you read through the topic, you'll see that a very high-brow, mature, and intelligent discussion was being conducted on both sides of the table. Well-thought-out posts were being made, and everyone was being respectful of each other as programmers and as individuals. I'm sorry to see that you elected to imply that Cemetech as a whole was at fault despite my disclaimer warning that I am Kerm, I am not Cemetech, and that Cemetech by definitely has a wide variety of views on Axe ranging from abject adoration to skepticism, with each member having the freedom to make their own decision.The reason why I did not name you directly is because in the past when I gave names directly, it made things worse. I did not go "Cemetech said that" either because the people involved are not Cemetech, as you and tifreak said. I admit however that the Ashbad comments kinda blew a fuse so when I wrote my post last night I was already irritated to begin with. However I do not like the accusation from tifreak implying that I am blatantly trying to bash people or trying to start drama.
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for themIf it would be like that, you actually forbid programmers with not good skills to make good games. I totally don't agree with you and I hope you change your opinion, which you are allowed to keep though.
(Sorry for the delay for the answer and sorry if my English is not good, I am French.)Quote from: HayleiaPeople who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at itYou'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular. Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community. I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back. I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
<KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
<KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
...any perceived insults lie more in the mind of the beholder than the participants.
ah, but the thing is that the entire discussion on cemetech was actually a peacefull discussion with each side giving their side of the story and everyone respecting each other's decision. I would think the topic on cemetech was not peaceful and was a bunch of snobs bashing axe if I only had read this topic.One issue is how years ago there were many anti-BASIC discussions elsewhere and in some cases they were intended to single out BASIC programmers and when I read Ashbad's quoted IRC post in the topic, I felt Axe programmers were being singled out as community figures or treated as inferior beings. Axe vs ASM did not happen as much as BASIC vs ASM so far but I feared it might go too far, hence why I did some sort of wake up call with my thread to share my opinion and past experiences, in case some people later end up simply splitting the community in half again, turning non-Axe and Axe users into two enemy clans or something.
/opinion
I don't think you're only a good programmer if you know ASM. It's obvious that if you make e.g. a game in ASM instead of making the same game in a higher level language you're a better programmer, but if you make a program with more possibilities in a higher level language in the same time you'd need to make an ASM program with less possibilities, why should you choose ASM? For many types of programs it's more a question of what you prefer than of real advantages.It's a bit like me with Sony ACID Pro 7 and MTV Music Generator 1. I know how to use both in general and Sony ACID is a MUCH more superior (and professional) tool than MTV Music Generator, but in Sony ACID it takes so incredibly long to make a song and make sure it sounds how I want that it impairs my creativity. As a result, I switched to professional tools in mid 2008 to make music, but finally I found myself going back to the original MTVMG again because I felt more comfortable with it. My MTVMG1 songs sounds much better than the songs I made with any other programs too, IMHO. The rest is even more repetitive.
In addition, programming skills alone don't make good programs.
DJ, I wasn't attempting to start any fights. I was pointing out that it looked as if you were trying to say Cemetech and Kerm were bad for starting up a debate on the usefulness of Axe. That is what I was pointing out. Even if you didn't intend to make the post like that, it looks like an indirect bash at Cemetech, and that was rather unfair in my eyes. So long as you are not bashing, then there is no problem.@Tifreak thank you. I assure you I was not trying to do so. It just seems that no matter how hard I try to rant about a TI community issue in a calm way, it's still seen as an overreaction or a fight starting attempt.
Omnimaga is, in one way, Axe's home, and the same way, Cemetech is DoorsCS' home.One of the misunderstandings here is that the cultures on Cemetech and Omnimaga are quite different. On Omnimaga, bashing is forbidden, so people tend to compliment projects and offer only positive suggestions regardless of the project and author, which is fine, that's the type of community (well, except for years of threads like this criticizing me, Cemetech, and Cemetech's members ;)). I feel that a lot of that tradition comes from the general audience of Omnimaga, who tend to be younger, generally high school age or below, and who perhaps need those sort of rules in place to maintain harmony, which seems successful, again with the exception of threads like this one. Cemetech, on the other hand, tries to promote more open discussion, including, where appropriate, criticisms. We especially like people to speak their minds, develop their own opinions, and think for themselves. Fittingly, the Cemetech crowd tends to be older programmers, from high school through college through professionals; I myself am a PhD student, as you may or may not know. When we see a programmer attempting a project that may be outside the scope of his skill or patience, we try to gently push him or her towards a project that may be better suited to his or her current abilities, and will thus give him more experience to later tackle his original project and be more likely to succeed with it. We have found that this is a very effective approach in the past, and even though people may balk at it at first, they almost universally look back on the experience later and thank us for helping them maintain a realistic view. Needless to say, it takes a more mature individual, for better or worse, to interpret negative feedback as constructive rather than seeing it as outright criticism or insulting. That's not to say one shouldn't respond in kind to outright insults, but one gains a certain understanding that some criticisms are intended in the best interest of the programmer in question. At Cemetech, I try to encourage everyone to think for themselves and form their own opinions, even if they may offend me or each other, because they're just opinions, and everyone is welcome to their own. Hence, if I say "I feel ____ about Axe", that's my prerogative, and it's up to the other members of the community to either agree or disagree, which they're equally welcome to. Throughout the course of a discussion or debate, people's opinions may be affected, but if at the end of the debate everyone does not agree, that's fine. Therefore, the difference between your post and mine was that I openly discussed my particular opinions, and invited people to respond with their own opinions. I didn't insult any specific language or any specific programmers; the only individual that I singled out, Quigibo, was in a positive light, to complement his programming. I felt that your characterization of one specific project, though it would have been welcome in a post at Cemetech where I could respond to your concerns and either contradict them or agree that Doors CS had those shortcomings, was instead intended as a hurtful response, even though it was hopefully in the heat of the moment, and was contrary to Omnimaga's anti-bashing rules. To conclude, I feel that over and over in the past 9 years, the rules of Omnimaga (for example, no "bashing") have been attempted to be applied to the community at large (for example, criticizing people and sites for what they say on Cemetech, Revsoft, TIFreakware, MaxCoderz, TI-News.net, and ticalc.org, among others), and that this thread is a good example of that mistake. Unfortunately, many such as lkj are inclined to agree with the original poster, even if they may not have gotten a chance to form their own independent opinions.
On Cemetech, you criticized Axe.
On Omnimaga, I said that some of your critics could apply to DoorsCS.
So we basically did the same thing.
17:52 < alberthro> KermM_, post a topic about the stuffs we talked about today and I might reply :) I'm busy with a collab project atm, so...
The good thing that has come out of this is that the Axe side (kinda) won, and that the topic of Axe vs. ASM is (finally?) done and dead. If anyone still has an issue to take up with Axe, that particular thread should be read.I don't think it's a war, there's no winner and no loser. As has been stated, the point of the thread was to discuss various viewpoints, see what other people had to say, and get a chance to debate each others' viewpoints while seeing some other perspectives. Since that happened, and a passionate but respectful discussion was maintained, I'd say we all won. The only people who lose are those that see attacks in intellectual debate, which based on the later posts in this thread, it seems no one is doing anymore. I don't quite understand why you're apologizing for encouraging a frank and open debate about a set of programming languages, any more than I would expect you to apologize for encouraging people to debate C vs. Java or Python vs. Perl. I also see no reason to point fingers at one particular user who may have had biased actions, since the overwhelming majority of the debaters conducted themselves maturely and professionally.
Starcraft II is far more superior to calcs and everyone should play as Zerg because Terran is OP. j/klol
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Go for it. :) I'd be happy to be proven wrong.Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Iirc alberthrocks and ephan did a joint project on one, not sure what happened to it tho.Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
ASM is not good for writing floating-point math programsIf by floating-point you happen to mean binary floating-point, and not that awkward base 10 format, then coincidentally I happen to be doing that right now. :)
Axe is not good for trying to make a shell or GUI API.Now I wanna make an Axe GUI.
Jacobly: I mean sign-exponent-mantissa, like the TI floating-point format and IEEE754.Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my post. I actually was talking about sign-exponent-mantissa floating point numbers.
...The only people who lose are those that see attacks in intellectual debate, which based on the later posts in this thread, it seems no one is doing anymore...Is my post one of them? I probably did feel attacked in some way, because I have become an Axe programmer and I don't like it that I wouldn't get credit for the programming in my games, which I think I deserve. I still haven't changed my mind about posting that post. Just so you know that.
Personally I think the biggest disadvantage Axe and to a lesser extent hybrid/on-calc ASM has over other languages right now is that if your program contains errors and you didn't backup, you can lose your entire progress. However I think that it's up to the user to do the effort of learning to backup his progress often on a computer while programming. When people use some judgement, the on-calc programming becomes an advantage in some ways (being able to code anywhere, for example).Not if you set the safety in Axe Parser to 'Auto Backup' :)
Granted, on a computer you should backup too, but I mean in Axe or lib-enhanced BASIC games you are at higher risk of data loss, since most programming errors will lead to a RAM clear or corruption during testing, while on the computer the data losses are generally caused by laptop failures.
This feature doesn't work 100% of the time. Sometimes the backup gets corrupted.
Honestly, I do think they have some good points. However, just because a language is easy (and for many, including myself, it's not) doesn't mean worthless things come out of it. (Case and point, PortalX, Graviter) Actually, in my experience with games, high quality Axe games totally beat all but the highest quality ASM games. (Again, from my experience)
Each language has its uses. Axe is designed for speedy development of games. It was made for programmers to make as high quality games as ASM, in a fifth of the time. (However, as with every language, there is no such thing as a perfect design or programmer)
Something I find personally funny to the Axe/ASM debate, is that I actually find ASM easier than Axe! ;D
So I agree, each language is capable of great things. It's not about what you're given before hand or how you go about it (though the experience of it is important) It's about the product. It's the same in professional development as well. 1. Make it work, 2. Make it fast, 3. Make it small. if one and two are taken care of in one fell swoop, then all the better. :P And if that's not your style, then just make something even awesomer in ASM! But don't bash the Axe programmer because of it.
As a side note, but I wonder how OPIA will influence this. O.O