Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: Dapianokid on March 15, 2013, 02:18:03 pm
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I have already posted a topic at Cemetech that helped me get my head around the pros and cons between the 84+CSE, and the Casio Prizm. However, my third option, the Nspire CX CAS, isn't an accepted calculator among the members of that community. Which one, the Prizm or CX CAS, to a programmer new to C, math student in Alg 2 and Pre-Calc, and a teenage calculator game enthusiast, would you guys suggest? Expert and experienced feedback appreciated!
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Yeah, my post about the Nspire got ignored there, even though it was defending both the Prizm and the CX (CAS or not).
Well, I'd say that it depends on what you want to do with your calc :P
-If you want to play the best games, buy a CX (CAS or not) since it has a GBA emulator.
-If you want to use your calc for maths, buy a CX CAS for... well the CAS :P
-If you want to code on it, well here is the problem, because as you know, the Nspire is closed while the Prizm isn't. So it is your choice here, wether about openness or power :)
Also, welcome to the forums Dapianokid, you can introduce yourself here (http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?board=10.0) :)
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Thanks, Hayleia. Turns out I registered with my email a while ago, and will forever be open to spamming now because it is exposed. Oh well. :P
The Nspire has Ndless, doesn't it?
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And The LUA, which isn't something that should not be mentioned. Great language from what I hear.
I don't know about the topic over at Cemetech, but did anyone perhaps link you to my article about the differences between these 2 calcs?
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On it, Stefan :)
http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8860&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8860&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
This will help you see what help I've already received.
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Hmm. Of what I've seen the Nspire is actually way above the PRIZM. I think TI therefore released the TI-84+ Color to compete with the PRIZM, instead of the Nspire, which is "way out of it's liege" :P
Excuse me, but for some reason I've gotten some biased feeling towards the PRIZM, since "they"(some prizm fans) *try* to make it seem so much better than the Nspire, but it's actually the only other color calc they could run to to "boycott" TI because they didn't like some features. And it always seems like they try to minimize the power of LUA too.
Here's the article, which is not biased by the way(:P): http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=87
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I've been looking at the nSpire and discovering that the Prizm is hyped, and although it panders to the desires of Cemetechians (who love a challenge), it is not my dream calc.
Thank you for the article! Extremely helpful.
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Thanks, Hayleia. Turns out I registered with my email a while ago, and will forever be open to spamming now because it is exposed. Oh well. :P
The Nspire has Ndless, doesn't it?
We can always change it :P
And yeah the Nspire wins hands down, except for a fact: unlike the Prizm, it's closed and you have to jailbreak it à la iPod/iPhone so you can run third-party C or ASM and it breaks nearly each time TI releases a new major version of the OS. Oh, and the Prizm is cheaper.
Personally, I own a Casio Prizm, it's pretty fun to program, but if you need a calc for math, I guess you might want a CAS like the one on the Nspire CX or the Casio Classpad.
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I like my Nspires and I love both lua and C. I also own a PRIZM, and it really comes down to what you want to do. If you like C, then you don't have to worry about loosing users the second TI updates its OS if you get a PRIZM. If you like LUA, it works great on the Nspire.
Power and feature wise, the Nspire wins.
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Actually, I think the whole Nspire vs. Prizm fight is pretty much unbalanced. The Prizm is more a competitor of the TI-84+CSE (they're both color screen evolutions of respectively the fx-9860 and the TI-84+, but since the Prizm came first way before the TI-84+CSE was announced, we compared it to the Nspire) while the Nspire is more a competitor to the Casio Classpad (they both have a CAS, if I'm not wrong).
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True, I think it started when the anti-nspire people needed a platform to rally for.
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I was hoping for this whole debate/discussion to take off between you experts soI can decide. ;) Keep it up!
If the OS is upgraded in the nSpire, am I suddenly going to have to update corresponding C or LUA programs? Because I don't wanna have to consider my stuff obsolete!
The Prizm may be where I should go, but in all honesty, I want an nSpire because more has been written for it, there is a ti calculator (other than the built in one) emulator well under way which I hope will have a throttle setting, and a GBC emu. :) The Prizm is cheaper, but if I get a lot of birthday money, and buy a Prizm, I won't have anything to spend leftovers on, and my father will definitely lose track of the savings before the next year comes and I can buy one. I plan on getting a CAS and then a CSE next year. If they come out with a ti84+/GBC emu for the Prizm, I'll bite my tongue and wish I had bought it. :P
Is nDless a difficult process?
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Actually, you don't need Ndless for Lua programs, it's supported by the OS since version 3.0 :P
But usually, when a new OS version breaks Ndless, you usually wait months before a new version of Ndless comes out.
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I have already posted a topic at Cemetech that helped me get my head around the pros and cons between the 84+CSE, and the Casio Prizm. However, my third option, the Nspire CX CAS, isn't an accepted calculator among the members of that community. Which one, the Prizm or CX CAS, to a programmer new to C, math student in Alg 2 and Pre-Calc, and a teenage calculator game enthusiast, would you guys suggest? Expert and experienced feedback appreciated!
Haha you should actually read the Anti-CX topic from 2011 there, you will probably see why :P. Actually they have a point, considering what TI did to us back then, but on a more neutral point of view, here are the pros and cons of the Nspire CX and PRIZM, and I'm gonna add the 84+CSE to the mix :)
PRIZM pros: Completely open to 3rd-party dev, has a BASIC language that is at least viable for homescreen games, cheaper
Cons: Smaller userbase due to TI's monopoly, slower CPU than the CX (basically, Doom will lag a bit even at max speed), lower RAM
Nspire CX pros: Much faster (up to 240 MHz), much more memory and the LCD protector doesn't get scratched as much with the time
Cons: Locked down (need to downgrade to OS 3.1 in order to play ASM games), lacks a decent BASIC language (Lua doesn't count), expensive and a major PITA to send programs to. Interface also not very user-friendly if you prefer standard calc interfaces.
84+CSE: Some compatibility with the 84+SE, has the biggest popularity potential due to the popularity of the 84+ line, and features BASIC drawing commands that are much faster than the PRIZM
Cons: 15 MHz processor and 21 KB of user RAM (128K for ASM coders), meaning that updating the entire LCD at once is 4 frames per second max, requiring special programming tricks such as using Z-adress or weird shortcuts like back in the NES days. Programming large programs on it might be annoying until third-party alternatives such as Doors CS8 instant Goto arrive.
If you're an hardcore BASIC programmer, I would say go for the PRIZM or 84+CSE. If you love to push outdated platforms to their limits and are a fan of old school consoles, go for the 84+CSE. If you want the most powerful platform that isn't locked down, go for the PRIZM. If you want the most powerful platform, at the cost of being forced to hack it in order to run ASM, go for the Nspire CX.
PRIZM: $129.99 61 KB user RAM (2 MB total), 16 MB Flash, 94.3 MHz max, BASIC/ASM/C/Lua
84+CSE: $129.99 21 KB user RAM (128 MB user), 3 MB Flash, 15 MHz max, BASIC/ASM (and eventually Grammer)
Nspire CX: $159.99 100 MB RAM, 64 MB Flash, 230-252 MHz max, ASM/C/Lua (major hassle to program)
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If you just want to do C programming and not assembly, i would forget about the 84+CSE. I also don't think it's fair to compare the 84+C and the Prizm, the Prizm is far more powerful (i don't think you'll ever see Doom on the 84+C, laggy or not, not even coded in assembly). While the Prizm community is a bit smaller, the Prizm is constantly being documented. Neither of the two have many original games, though the Nspire does have a GBA emulator that runs really well. The Nspire is clearly more powerful but also more locked down, i don't know if that means your games depend on Ndless being maintained to be able to run on future OS versions or not, i haven't really followed Nspire development as closely as the Prizm. But that being said, the Nspire has lots of interesting projects, including a Linux port, a port of the SDL library, and plenty of others. Both calculators have LUA support, though i can't comment on how one compares to the other as i've never used LUA. I also can't comment on the math aspect of them, since it's been forever since i used a calculator to do math with :P I believe there are a couple projects floating around to write a CAS for the Prizm (and i think Kerm's even written a 3D graphing app).
One thing i don't like that much about either calc are the keys, on the Prizm they feel really loose like they're going to fall out whereas on the Nspire they feel really stiff and i'm not always sure if a keypress has registered.
In short, both calculators are very powerful. I think the Prizm might be a little more secure programming-wise, though the Nspire is definitely more powerful. I'm not sure what sort of games/programs you'd like to make, but at least for me personally both of them are more than powerful enough to program the games i want to make.
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True, I think it started when the anti-nspire people needed a platform to rally for.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
Also, DJ_O, why isn't Lua between the pro's of the Nspire?
I am not a Lua programmer, but from what I see it looks really a lot underestimated. Lua is a lot better than TI-Basic, and will not be locked down. So instead of Ti-Basic we get something, that is not a major hassle to program afaik, and we are not grateful?
Also, here is the process to install Ndless on your calculator: http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8677
Not too hard it seems.
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If the OS is upgraded in the nSpire, am I suddenly going to have to update corresponding C or LUA programs?
Yes, for both C and Lua:
* the Ndless API changes a bit, and targeting a new Ndless version usually requires a recompilation;
* TI changed the Lua API multiple times as well. API levels should alleviate the problem, though... assuming they implement them correctly.
Because I don't wanna have to consider my stuff obsolete!
You will have to ;)
Is nDless a difficult process?
Of course, otherwise it would be done much more quickly ;)
The task of porting Ndless to a new OS version consists in:
* finding a needle of several hundreds of functions in a haystack of dozen thousand functions scattered in a dozen megabytes of code and data. The binary changes significantly across versions, which tends to foil code analysis heuristics - and some functions in the OS change, too;
* finding and reliably exploiting yet another arbitrary code execution vulnerability across all Nspire models. That, too, takes lots of time.
As a result of its overly high price tag for such an underpowered device (the Raspberry Pi is 5x more powerful for 4x-6x cheaper, it's much more flexible and has more I/O, etc.), the Nspire platform is sufficiently underwhelming for learning programming, that relatively few users care about it, which further reduces the incentive for people to work on Ndless...
If you just want to do C programming and not assembly, i would forget about the 84+CSE
Agreed. The Z80 ISA simply isn't well suited to C programming, and no C compiler that targets the Z80 (there are several of them) produces code which does not make Z80 experts weep.
Lua is a lot better than TI-Basic, and will not be locked down.
That's not entirely true: the capability of outputting data to the RS232 port was removed by TI in OS 3.1.0.392, so in a sense, it has already been locked down (making the calculator obviously less useful, even for classroom usage, by removing the ability to control external peripherals through a standard protocol). We added it back with FixPrint ( https://tiplanet.org/forum/archives_voir.php?id=4227 ) thanks to Ndless, but cannot do that in all 3.2 OS versions (well, we could with nLaunch on Clickpad and Touchpad, but nobody has done so yet).
So instead of Ti-Basic we get something, that is not a major hassle to program afaik, and we are not grateful?
On-calc programmability is low (and only available through third-party Oclua, at that - TI didn't bother)... isn't that a hassle ? ;)
While you're at it... have you looked at the HP-50g, dapianokid ?
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I haven't touched any HP calcs in nearly ten years, but Wikipedia has some interesting info:
System RPL programs can be created without the use of PC software (although it is available), thanks to the calculator's built-in compiler, MASD. MASD also can compile Saturn assembly language and, with the latest ROM revision for the 49g+/50g, ARM assembly language on the calculator itself. Many tools exist to assist programmers and make the calculator a powerful programming environment.
A built-in compiler/assembler? Wow. When should we expect TI to provide us with one? ;) There's also a nice C compiler, HPGCC.
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Nowadays, the hardware characteristics of the HP-50g are even more outdated than those of the Nspire are, but when the HP-49G+ was released, thanks to its ~200 MHz-capable RISC ARM7TDMI, it was far above contemporary TI hardware.
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Actually, I think the whole Nspire vs. Prizm fight is pretty much unbalanced. The Prizm is more a competitor of the TI-84+CSE (they're both color screen evolutions of respectively the fx-9860 and the TI-84+, but since the Prizm came first way before the TI-84+CSE was announced, we compared it to the Nspire) while the Nspire is more a competitor to the Casio Classpad (they both have a CAS, if I'm not wrong).
True. And Casio's CAS is less buggy and easier to use than the nspire's.
Speaking strictly from personal experience, I prefer an fx9860 to the TI-84, nSpire and PRIZM as far as math is concerned. I find it annoying that the 84 and nspire have long menus to navigate through on a timed test. The PRIZM is what I use as a backup. While the PRIZM is just a little slow going from main menu to modes, and that also can be annoying.
I haven't touched any HP calcs in nearly ten years, but Wikipedia has some interesting info:
System RPL programs can be created without the use of PC software (although it is available), thanks to the calculator's built-in compiler, MASD. MASD also can compile Saturn assembly language and, with the latest ROM revision for the 49g+/50g, ARM assembly language on the calculator itself. Many tools exist to assist programmers and make the calculator a powerful programming environment.
A built-in compiler/assembler? Wow. When should we expect TI to provide us with one? ;) There's also a nice C compiler, HPGCC.
Yup, and the Saturn series was developed specifically as a processor for HP calcs.
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Well, this escalated quickly!
This topic is obviously one where everybody has opinions. It looks like people who have both prefer the Prizm for programming. Oncalc programming is what I was hoping for, as I have limits on how long I can spend on the computer per-day. I am, however an apt hacker and would love to help or at least see what I can find out as for the people here at Omnimaga. I only need a disassembler :)
Ndless, as well as a Linux port for the nSpire, USB research for the nSpire, and things of that nature are right up my ally. I will eagerly learn any programming language. I don't usually contribute with programs as much as I simply come up with the information needed to write them.
HP calculators look like a significantly different.. realm of handheld devices. I'd like to spend time with an nSpire/Prizm first. The CSE will only be a novelty when I get one, really, as I usually like devices with better hardware.
I'm learning a lot, and I'm going to be a busy programmer as I progress in my pursuits of calculator programming! I think that the nSpire is calling me to hack it better. :P I want to make it easier for people to develop for, and less scary to start out as a programmer on.
The Prizm isn't as well documented as the nSpire series is, so it's less of an attraction for me.
DJ_O did a nice job explaining the calculators, and FF is here to help even more!
What do you recommend, to learn as a programming language? Because hacking doesn't require that knowledge as much. Hacking is finding little quirks and exploiting the fudge out of them, at it's roots. And, which calculator to use to learn it? I'm a TI-Basic expert and Axe amateur. :P I cannot wrap my young mind around ASM, yet.
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Lionel Debroux, but wouldn't you choose a Nspire if you had to choose of these 3 calculators?
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So in general, the nSpire is the best one. Especially for a person like me, as every project out there for the nSpire is stuff I LOVE to do.
I have done a lot of work into hacking Nintendo Wii's without having the help of cheaty things like LetterBomb. :) I'm excited about things like Linuks, (That is the Linux project for the nSpire, correct?), nDless, and gbc4nSpire. also, the z80 emulation for the CX is basically what I've been waiting for before I bought one. Hopefully, by the time my birthday money is within my grasp, a TI83+ emulation may be possible. ;D
Is there anywhere I can get a little bit of info on emulating one of these nSpires, or do I need to buy one and dump a ROM/the whole NAND? I see USB documentation on it is being quickly written!
Also, HP emulators are out there, right?
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Yeah, DJ_O told me he bought a HP 39gII, then I tried googling about this and the first thing I saw is an emulator.
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I'm excited about things like Linuks, (That is the Linux project for the nSpire, correct?)
Hmm, where did you find that name ? :)
Is there anywhere I can get a little bit of info on emulating one of these nSpires,
For instance, on Hackspire, or TI-Planet's partially translated nspire_emu tutorial: https://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=8698 .
or do I need to buy one and dump a ROM/the whole NAND?
For the CX series, you're indeed supposed to dump the boot1 of the real calculator through PolyDumper. Emulation of older models doesn't require a boot1 for the vast majority of purposes, official OS upgrades containing a boot2 image are enough.
I see USB documentation on it is being quickly written!
Not "quickly", nope ;)
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While you're at it... have you looked at the HP-50g, dapianokid ?
The 50G looks pretty nice indeed ! I remember I loved my 40G when I was in troisième (2-3 years ago) and I should fix it like now. :D
HP calcs have something TIs don't. I personally don't like the Casio UI and my friends' Nspires showed me it's not as friendly as HPs and TI-Z80s.
The TI 68k series is also pretty good. You can find used 89s for very cheap nowadays and it's a very good CAS calc (even though I don't own one, using it in an emulator convinced me). It's interface is similar to HP. ;)
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I'm not going to go searching around for a CX image. I'm a respectable person, and I only find illegal ROM dumps of devices or volumes that are at least 10 years old. :P I kid, but seriously I don't pirate. :)
I see that hacking the nSpire involves a lot of similar concepts used in hacking Wii's, and I'm happy about that. It's quite the calculator! I'll own a CX CAS soon enough, less than a month hopefully. Leave this topic open for others wondering the same thing. I think choosing between calculators can be difficult for some people.
HP calculators are wayyyy different from any device I am used to o.0 It seems to have lots and lots of functionality/programmability. Perhaps there is an HPcalc.org? :P
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Perhaps there is an HPcalc.org? :P
Indeed, yes, there is an hpcalc.org. Very interesting stuff on it too, even if you don't own/don't plan on owning an HP. ;)
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Well I asked about the CasioCalc.org, I knew about Ticalc, and now I find out about HPcalc. Is there a CrappyDollarTreeCalc.org? :P
What is the most favored calculator on this website, by majority?
Go ahead and say your favorite calcs for which purpose, and how often you use it :P
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HP calculators are wayyyy different from any device I am used to o.0 It seems to have lots and lots of functionality/programmability. Perhaps there is an HPcalc.org? :P
That was the goal of HP : teach students programming. Unlike TI who makes their calcs less and less programmer friendly. <_<
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HP calculators are wayyyy different from any device I am used to o.0 It seems to have lots and lots of functionality/programmability. Perhaps there is an HPcalc.org? :P
That was the goal of HP : teach students programming. Unlike TI who makes their calcs less and less programmer friendly. <_<
TI panders to tests. I hate that. I mostly used Symbloic, Omnicalc, and other math apps for my tests last week.
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HP calculators are wayyyy different from any device I am used to o.0 It seems to have lots and lots of functionality/programmability. Perhaps there is an HPcalc.org? :P
That was the goal of HP : teach students programming. Unlike TI who makes their calcs less and less programmer friendly. <_<
TI panders to tests. I hate that. I mostly used Symbloic, Omnicalc, and other math apps for my tests last week.
Yeah that's true. I myself use a patched 2.43 OS with a bunch of apps.
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Exactly. Thanks ThePenguin77! hehe
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What is the most favored calculator on this website, by majority?
Go ahead and say your favorite calcs for which purpose, and how often you use it :P
To answer these, I will list them from the one I use daily to backups.
1. Ti-Nspire CX CAS
I use this one the most, when I had it cracked I played DOOM and used the GBC emulator quite frequently. This is my main programming calc, and the one I use on all my math and science classes.
2. Ti-Nspire clickpad
This used to be #1, until I bought the CX CAS. I use this to test my lua scripts on grey scale screens. This is also what I make 84+ programs on.
3. Casio Prizm
This I lend out, and I use it as a backup. I have done some C programming for it, but when m emulator trial expired I kind of quit, and I'm not paying for the emulator. Maybe when the community comes out with one I will start again.
The reason why the Nspires are the top 2 calcs that I use is they have a lot of features that others don't, and it is actually easier to use. I say this because the UI is way more modern than the others out there. It also is very easy to link variables and there is a feature that no one has yet talked about: You aren't constricted when it comes to variables. You can have a variable called 'x1' or 'person1', and variables do not have a type, so it is like javascript or lua in a sense. What I mean is, the variable 'x1' could be a matrix, integer, string or float. Something else no one has mentioned is that if you know what the functions are named, you can just type them out, unlike the other calculators. it is faster to type 'ncr(' or 'abs(' than it is to look through the catalog the menus.
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Here's my opinion on different models. Note that I don't own all of them.
Math : Definitely the TI-68k series and CAS HP calcs. They have a very friendly UI for this purpose. The Nspire CAS has Ndless menus so it's not very handy. The TI-z80 series has only a floating point math engine which is not interesting at my school level. It's great for physics though.
Programming : The TI-z80 series (especially 83+/84+) are very programmable since they have BASIC (slow but nice for heavy math), and support native execution with ASM and Axe. There are also third party interpreted languages such as Grammer and BBC BASIC, and BASIC expansions such as XLib/Celtic/Omnicalc/BatLib.
The TI-68k series has ASM, C, BASIC and NewProg (like Axe for this series of calcs). Only the last two are on calc though.
The HP-50G looks awesome for that purpose too, especially since it has equivalent on-calc programming possibilities to the TI-z80s.
Casio calcs have native prog and BASIC too even though the editor is even worse than on TI-z80s. There is LuaZM for Lua, too. On calc native programming is not here yet though.
The Nspire requires a PC to program it in ASM/C and Lua so don't think about it.
Power : Definitely the Nspire CX. It's currently the most powerful calc out there. Then come the PRIZM and HP-50G, the TI-68k and last but not least the TI-z80s.
Hacking : TI calcs are 100% proprietary and officially undocumented calcs, a lot of research is being done on them. We already found a lot about the z80s though, but the Nspire is fairly recent and we have yet to factor it's RSA keys. ;)
Hope this can help you choose !
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The Nspire requires a PC to program it in ASM/C and Lua so don't think about it.
Seems like you forgot about oclua ;)
Also, it is not forbidden to write a C compiler or an ASM compiler, or an another-language compiler (like Axe on the z80 series) on any of those calcs :P
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The TI-68k series has ASM, C, BASIC and NewProg (like Axe for this series of calcs). Only the last two are on calc though.
While it has few users, partly because someone tried every trick to belittle and delay it, there's GTC ;)
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Hayleia : true, but it's probably a long and winding process.
Lionel : I wasn't aware of this one.
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I like nspire cx personally, programming on the computer doesnt bother me :P
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Programming on the computer does, indeed, bother me. An oncalc program editor or even a simple text editor combined with a compiler would be the absolute LEAST I would require. Maybe some days I would write down an idea and then type it up on the computer, but I really prefer oncalc programming. The two long posts about the calculators were extremely helpful. I already know a lot about the Ti8x series, and have 4 members. A Ti82 of mine is hiding in my brother's room. :P
So the nSpire has some nice UI tricks that I can pick up to make MATH significantly easier, and unless I get serious about programming, those things are best left to the experts, whereas the Casio Prizm is great for the whole oncalc programming thing. :)
68k calculators will never enter my home unless I have every other kind of calculator out there. I do not, I repeat DO NOT, care about them. They are just underdocumented and nobody likes them for programming.
Axe isn't native! It requires to have it on calc, or even requires some shell of some kind, unless you compile fo noshell (which is the way to go unless speed or memory is a main concern.). But I see that variables work the same way on the CX CAS as they do in Axe. :) HELPFUL! What is the maximum size integer and most precise number that you can work with on each calculator?
I'm getting a lot of feedback from a lot of people!!
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It's entirely your right not to care about the TI-68k series... but then, please use proper arguments ;)
They are just underdocumented and nobody likes them for programming.
The cold hard fact is, while TI-68k calculators aren't popular nowadays, they remain far better documented for programming than Nspire calculators are... If you really hate under-documented, under-loved platforms, than neither the Nspire series, nor the Prizm series, should be a priority for you - you should care about the TI-Z80 and TI-68k series instead !
Educate yourself with the GCC4TI documentation (online version: http://debrouxl.github.com/gcc4ti/ ), the hardware documentation far more complete than that of the more complex Nspire ( http://tict.ticalc.org/docs/J89hw.txt ), etc.
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What? The 68K is one of the best calculators out there, and though it may not have such a community now, it did once and the left all awesome calcs behind: http://www.ticalc.org/pub/89/asm/games/rate.html
Even many basic games are cool!
I've had my hands on several Z80's and Nspire's but I always go back to the indestructible TI-89 !
I love it so much, I even wrote an article why to buy one: http://stefan.bwns.be/?q=content/why-buy-68k-calc
I'm not saying you have to buy one, but it is definitely more powerful than all the other TI-8X calcs out there.
Of all the people that used the TI-89, I think everyone enjoyed it.
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Axe isn't native! It requires to have it on calc, or even requires some shell of some kind, unless you compile fo noshell (which is the way to go unless speed or memory is a main concern.).
???
Axe is a compiled language, so once compiled, any Axe program is an ASM program, in native language. And you absolutely don't need the Axe application to run compiled Axe programs, only programmers need the app to compile but launching the compiled product doesn't need Axe. And you don't need a shell if the program was compiled as an app or for NoShell (and this also applies for ASM programs, not only Axe programs).
And you said that compiling for NoShell is the way to go, but not necessarily. I'd say that compiling for Ion is better because the program could still be launched via the ASM command and it will also be displayed by MirageOS, so everyone will be able to launch it :)
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Honestly i don't know how you could tackle any large project away from the computer. Lots of Axe and BASIC programmers have done it, but personally i couldn't imagine keeping track of a project that has several tens of thousands of lines of code.
About the 68k calcs, it's not that nobody likes programming them, i think they're fun and, while i haven't jumped into it as much as say z80 or ARM assembly, m68k assembly is pretty interesting. The instructions are pretty flexible, (compared to the z80) you have tons of registers, lots of instructions you wanted on the z80 (a div instruction?!) and introduces some important concepts in a lot of other languages that you don't have in z80, like sign extension and differentiating between addresses and data. You've also got lots of conditional tests at your disposal. Really i think it's just that there's not that large of a community around anymore, though there still are lots of really knowledgeable people around willing to help out and answer questions. If you go back five or ten years you'll find tons and tons of amazing projects (seriously, have you ever checked out all the 68k games available at ticalc? :D)
As for Axe, to run Axe programs you don't need the application on your calc, you might need a shell, though. Most 83/4/+/SE programs are written for a shell, however, so most people who play games will have a shell on their calc. I'd go so far to say that most people would actually rather use a shell to run a program than have to use the Asm( token (unless they're using zStart/NoShell/DoorsCS's run from homescreen feature). Though if i could i'd push you towards z80 asm, nowadays there are so many resources available, libraries, etc. you could probably write an entire game not knowing a single bit of assembly ;)
On the 83+ in most cases you aren't going to need super huge numbers, generally 16 bits will be enough and if you need extra precision you can hack it together using an extra byte as a decimal (instead of .00-.99 you'd have .000-.255). If you need larger numbers you can handle that a variety of ways. You can take advantage of OS routines or write your own, but unless you're writing some sort of math program i can't imagine you needing more than 3 bytes (>16,000,000). Handling 3-byte numbers is pretty simple and not much slower than 2-byte numbers (for most operations). On the Nspire i imagine you've got support for 32-bit numbers with the ARM processor, if you need larger numbers i don't think it'd be difficult to handle them yourself..
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Programming on the computer does, indeed, bother me. An oncalc program editor or even a simple text editor combined with a compiler would be the absolute LEAST I would require. Maybe some days I would write down an idea and then type it up on the computer, but I really prefer oncalc programming. The two long posts about the calculators were extremely helpful. I already know a lot about the Ti8x series, and have 4 members. A Ti82 of mine is hiding in my brother's room. :P
So the nSpire has some nice UI tricks that I can pick up to make MATH significantly easier, and unless I get serious about programming, those things are best left to the experts, whereas the Casio Prizm is great for the whole oncalc programming thing. :)
68k calculators will never enter my home unless I have every other kind of calculator out there. I do not, I repeat DO NOT, care about them. They are just underdocumented and nobody likes them for programming.
To respond: The 68k calcs have fallen out of favor, but then again TI isn't really been advertising or promoting them for some time. The french community has also always been more active with the 68k series it seems. They have been around forever though, so I'd imagine they are quite thoroughly documented.
Axe isn't native! It requires to have it on calc, or even requires some shell of some kind, unless you compile fo noshell (which is the way to go unless speed or memory is a main concern.). But I see that variables work the same way on the CX CAS as they do in Axe. :) HELPFUL! What is the maximum size integer and most precise number that you can work with on each calculator?
I'm getting a lot of feedback from a lot of people!!
It's true that Axe isn't built in. You only need it on calc to compile the source though. As far as exection of programs go Axe and Asm are exactly the same. They can either be nostub, compiled for a shell, or an app.
In response to your original question:
The Prizm and the CAS version of the Nspire aren't really comparable. If you were to compare the Prizm to anything, it'd have to be the normal Nspire CX or a TI-84+/ TI-84+ CSE.
Concerning on calc programming:
-The Nspire has Nspire BASIC which from what I understand is ok for math, but next to useless for much else. I think there is a third party editor for LUA, but TI has not provided one. On the PC side, you can do C or ARM ASM.
-The Prizm has Prizm BASIC, and some drawing commands are quite slow unfortunately. You have a Prizm version of Lua, but I can't remember if it has an on calc editor or not. On the pc again you have C and Assembly.
-The 84+ CSE has BASIC. Most commands that display things have been shown to be slow. (Output for example)On the PC side you have ASM. At this point it is unknown if and when Axe will be ported. I wouldn't be surprised to see some other languages popping up, but time will tell.
Honestly the classic Z80 series has the highest programmablity on calc. You have BASIC, ASM, Axe, grammer, and batlib. For BASIC you also have the Celtic III/Xlib to add additional functionality.
As far as specs go, as others have mentioned the Nspire wins. It has the fastest processor and the most storage space. It also has a decent color display at 320x240 resolution.
The Prizm has a decent processor, but only 16 MB memory. It has a very high color display resolution though at 396×224.
The TI-84+ CSE comes in last with only 3MB memory. It has a 320x240 pretty color display, but only a 15Mhz Z80 backing it up.
Although the Nspire is constantly being upgraded and having Ndless(which allows C and ASM programs to be executed) blocked, I'd say it's probably the best choice of the batch, as long as you don't mind programming on computer. If you are set on programming on calc, I'd stick with the classic Z80 series right now. It's the most supported and has tons of options. 68k is an options as well. Honestly it has an extremly powerful form of BASIC built in that allows manipulation of pictures among other things. There is also Newprog which can be done oncalc. On the PC side you have 68k ASM and C yet again.
I don't really do much regarding math, so I can't really weigh in there. That's about all I have to add.
Oh, and since I haven't said it yet, welcome to Omnimaga!
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Thanks for welcoming me, Art_of_Camelot!
I shouldn't have dogged the 68k series so early on, then. I never went and took the time to explore the archives on ticalc, mostly because I never go there unless google directs me there with programs only found there. Apparently, the file hosting on that site is the preferred method of sharing things. I don't want a 68k series calc because I've got absolutely no money to speak of, ever, period. I want to get myself a nice calculator to continue my hobby, the nSpire seems the perfect fit. When I get a job that I can use for things other than things I need, I'll put a little money into the hobby if I still like calculators then. :) In that case, I will definitely get an 89, because obviously I was unaware how programmable they are!
I know enough about Axe that it's okay not to go in-depth. I use it to get something done quickly when Basic doesn't suit my needs. It's probably my favorite language :) I didn't know that Ion was executable natively, however, so I'll have to look into that because Ion rocks.
Few things: I either like to have a well documented calculator that everybody loves and knows lots about with lots of utilities written for it, or I like to be a pioneer in documentation for the calculator. I see that the 8x series and the 68k series have been beaten to death in that aspect. :) We don't know everything, but we know so much in comparison to any other calculator, I never have to test things for myself. I can just go to WikiTi.
The nSpire could always use someone like me to screw around and learn more about it! It's under-documented, but with a little push in the right direction, something could be done to make development a lot easier for it. The z80 series is the best all around, but I don't think the nSpire has been pushed to its limits like the 84+ has. So what makes a CAS better than a regular calculator?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system
^CAS Info.
I'm glad you realized that the 68k calc's aren't so bad. I perfectly understand that you now rather buy a Nspire first, and I'm fine with that. :)
I think that if you want to use the calculator for math-things, it would be a shame not to pay a bit extra to get the CAS, since I'm used to it on my TI-89, and when I go on a Z80 I fast notice I really miss it.
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As I said I have a CX CAS, its better because it has math functions that the lesser calcs dont. It can expand things like binomials and you can do things like solve equations. It can do a lot more, I just dont have time to get into detail.
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The z80 series is the best all around, but I don't think the nSpire has been pushed to its limits like the 84+ has
There are still some surprises in the TI-Z80 hardware: for instance, until recently, the community didn't know how to bypass some execution limits (the corresponding knowledge was gained when TI made a silly change which was soon worked around), and of course, the 84+CSE is appearing. There are fewer surprises in the TI-68k documentation. But indeed, the Nspire's hardware is relatively less well documented, and the platform hasn't been pushed to its limits.
The Nspire's CAS could do even more, through native code, which is possible on the TI-68k's CAS but not really on the Nspire. There has been little work in that area, besides me showing in 2011 that the code base hadn't changed much since the TI-92 in 1996, and Excale making a bit of progress through a Lua extension in 2012. We don't have enough insight into the calculator's document format, we only know that Ndless documents are not well-formed for the purposes of meaningful interaction with the CAS.
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As I said I have a CX CAS, its better because it has math functions that the lesser calcs dont. It can expand things like binomials and you can do things like solve equations. It can do a lot more, I just dont have time to get into detail.
Not trying to sound biased, but the classpad's CAS is less buggy and more powerful than the nspire's. ;)
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[Citation needed], please ;)
A fact is that the HP-49 CAS outclassed the TI-68k CAS in several areas, and another fact is that modern versions of the Nspire's CAS are buggy; but the Nspire's CAS contains several enhancements over the TI-68k CAS. Do you have a comparison of the CAS engines of the Classpad and Nspire similar to ti89vshp49.pdf ?
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I'm going to be on at splotchy times and I may be out for several days at a time. Vacation. 8)
I don't have the comparison PDF although I must say, I want one! I don't think one exists though...
zStart has been around a while with it's nice execution limit workaround/exploit. I've been looking at his "speed increase tool" that takes off the delay set by TI lately and have wondered about actually having a setting that slows the calculator down significantly, for TASing (which WabbitEmu doesn't do justice for. Speeding the calculator up is even worse.). So, I know that there are some things which have, and some things which haven't, been discovered and/or documented. Universal flash access across all 83/84 calculators is also a relatively new thing!
The Ti84+ has a solver, but I find that I have to work with it before I can get what I want.
Well, I am intuitive enough to do some random stuff and logically assess information based off of it. Need help documenting the nSpire? :)
What is a ClassPad? I have heard of them and googled it, but I really DON'T know enough about them, not that I can ever get one until I have enough money.
---Even when I do, I'll be getting an 89 first. :) 68k series actually rocks, from what I can tell! They aren't crappy 84s, and they aren't that terribly different. They do have major differences that make them awesome, though, and they do require a hack (which makes me feel kinda cool to use it to program.) depending on the model. I won't rule them out, but I want a nSpire because I think it will be better. :)
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I just want to say that it's very cool that you edit your posts, instead of double-posting(that's a rule here).
Many people don't do that, but you do so: Well Done! :D
Also, I find it cool that you changed your opinion about the 68k calculators. That means you admit you were "wrong", which many people will find hard to do. :)
I hope you have a nice vacation.
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MirageOS had a slowdown feature which worked for programs that didn't mess with the interrupts. It was [On]+[Graph] or [On]+[Y=] or one of those buttons. The ClassPad is a Casio calculator that's got a touch screen. I think a color screen version (http://www.cemetech.net/news.php?id=547) is also in the works.
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Stefan appreciates me and my forum etiquette! :) I tend to ramble, though! I stick my nose into things I know nothing about so I can learn more about those things. I watch for proper mechanics and comprehension. Forum posts are like my literature class, as I am home-schooled and don't do as many papers as other people do.
I find that my "wrong" opinion (Interesting how opinions can be, isn't it? ;) ) of the 68k series was simply an error in judgement. I formed a strong opinion far too early and without much knowledge at all. MirageOS has no such feature, at least none that I can tell! I have used it for years and recompiled it to my liking, even rewritten some of it with what little I know of ASM. I hacked Mario 1.2 today and made all enemies stop existing. The goal is counted as an enemy. Whoops. :P Is there a Mario 2.0? I heard there was.
ClassPads look crazy..
Are there PDF readers for the nSpires?
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As I said I have a CX CAS, its better because it has math functions that the lesser calcs dont. It can expand things like binomials and you can do things like solve equations. It can do a lot more, I just dont have time to get into detail.
Not trying to sound biased, but the classpad's CAS is less buggy and more powerful than the nspire's. ;)
I don't think I can agree, I've never had problems with the CAS, and I'm not sure about it being more powerful, I'd have to try it first.
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MirageOS has no such feature, at least none that I can tell! I have used it for years and recompiled it to my liking, even rewritten some of it with what little I know of ASM.
http://www.detachedsolutions.com/mirageos/manual/taskerhkeys.php
Check out the "Alter Execution Speed" section ;)
EDIT: Btw, where did you find the MOS source?
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Are there PDF readers for the nSpires?
Not really. There is nothing to reads a true pdf, but you can convert your pdf as an image and open it with mViewer (which has a zoom feature and all ;)).
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chickendude: I just edited the hex using several tools like calcsys and then resigned the app. I don't have the source, but I have found it before!
I had NO idea MirageOS had so many features :O This is amazing! I took this app apart and didn't know about this stuff :)
The CAS sounds like it is just MathPrint for nSpires?
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No, a CAS is capable of solving very complex math problems, all versions of Nspire have a much better, cleaner version of math print
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Thank you so much, JW.
So I have to hack my nSpire to get into the filesystem to be able to do ANYTHING really?
If I have further questions, I will ask :)
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So I have to hack my nSpire to get into the filesystem to be able to do ANYTHING really?
You can write programs in Lua but other than that yea you kinda need hacks.
Ndless does take a while to come out sometimes but maybe you can help look for exploits on the next OS update to make it an even quicker process.
I really like my Nspire CX CAS. There is just so much that you can do with it and there are so many possibilities that are open for it.
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The 84+'s MathPrint is just TI bringing to the TI-Z80 series, a subset of the printing sugar that the TI-92 and the rest of the TI-68k series have been providing since circa 1996. It does not bring all symbolic computation abilities, as jwalker indicates.
And yes, Lua programs cannot access the Nspire's filesystem. That's one of the ways TI's non-standard Lua implementation is crippled. Only native code provides access to the Nspire's filesystem.
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Hmm. Of what I've seen the Nspire is actually way above the PRIZM. I think TI therefore released the TI-84+ Color to compete with the PRIZM, instead of the Nspire, which is "way out of it's liege" :P
Excuse me, but for some reason I've gotten some biased feeling towards the PRIZM, since "they"(some prizm fans) *try* to make it seem so much better than the Nspire, but it's actually the only other color calc they could run to to "boycott" TI because they didn't like some features. And it always seems like they try to minimize the power of LUA too.
Here's the article, which is not biased by the way(:P): http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=87
Actually the 84+CSE is way inferior to the PRIZM except in one way:
Calculator PRIZM 84+CSE
User RAM 61 KB 21 KB
Total RAM 2048 KB 128 KB
Flash 16 MB 3 MB
CPU 58 MHz 15 MHz
Overclocked 94.3 MHz 15 MHz
BASIC colors 8 15
ASM colors 65536 65536
However, PRIZM BASIC can be up to 30 times slower than the 84+CSE, add-ins are minimum 29 KB large instead of 16 and it doesn't support the ability to use ASM libs inside BASIC programs.
The Nspire is far superior in power, but it lacks proper TI-BASIC (lua doesn't count, because it's much more complex than TI-83+ BASIC in terms of syntax size and much slower than Axe, otherwise people wouldn't be switching from Nspire dev to 84+ Axe one after another) and you face the constant threat that TI might block Ndless for the latest OS then make Ndless-compatible OSes unavailable online (eg deleting the OSes from their servers then sending DMCA notices to people re-hosting them, like they did with OS 1.1)
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Hmm. Of what I've seen the Nspire is actually way above the PRIZM. I think TI therefore released the TI-84+ Color to compete with the PRIZM, instead of the Nspire, which is "way out of it's liege" :P
Excuse me, but for some reason I've gotten some biased feeling towards the PRIZM, since "they"(some prizm fans) *try* to make it seem so much better than the Nspire, but it's actually the only other color calc they could run to to "boycott" TI because they didn't like some features. And it always seems like they try to minimize the power of LUA too.
Here's the article, which is not biased by the way(:P): http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=87
Actually the 84+CSE is way inferior to the PRIZM except in one way:
Calculator PRIZM 84+CSE
User RAM 61 KB 21 KB
Total RAM 2048 KB 128 KB
Flash 16 MB 3 MB
CPU 58 MHz 15 MHz
Overclocked 94.3 MHz 15 MHz
BASIC colors 8 15
ASM colors 65536 65536
In raw hardward comparison, that's 100% true, that's actually why the comparison was done earlier (and still is), to the Nspire CX (non-CAS) since it was the one competing against especially when it came out, in which case, the Nspire wins easily.
However, PRIZM BASIC can be up to 30 times slower than the 84+CSE, add-ins are minimum 29 KB large instead of 16 and it doesn't support the ability to use ASM libs inside BASIC programs.
Why is it so bad ? :o
The Nspire is far superior in power, but it lacks proper TI-BASIC (lua doesn't count, because it's much more complex than TI-83+ BASIC in terms of syntax size and much slower than Axe, otherwise people wouldn't be switching from Nspire dev to 84+ Axe one after another)
The Nspire Basic is crap for drawing things for example, but I find it way better than the z80 for doing math-related stuff. THen, Lua could be the Axe of the z80, since it allows kind of anything, graphics-related, and offers cool things like a physics engine, etc. in several ways like Axe, far superior to Basic. And then, the Nativ programming of the Nspire would be the native of the z80 too. Btw, what do you mean "otherwise people wouldn't be switching from Nspire dev to 84+ Axe one after another" ? I haven't really heard of people doing so ? (or aat least not in such amount that it's really considerable ?) I personnaly believe programming on the Nspire has nothign to do with programmiing on other platforms. On the Nspire, you have multiple devices to work with (calc, computer software, iPad app now...), the z80 really are for high-schoolers, I guess, where it's all focused on being a portable/handheld device, where users can use it in classes and do everything on it, "mostly".
and you face the constant threat that TI might block Ndless for the latest OS
Well, it's more of a fact than a threat. They just keep [trying / succeding depending on the OS version] to block it in the latest updates
then make Ndless-compatible OSes unavailable online (eg deleting the OSes from their servers then sending DMCA notices to people re-hosting them, like they did with OS 1.1)
So far, it's been "accepted" on TI-Planet. At least we haven't received such request from them. But at the same time, it's part of our "digital museum" for TI related things, and i personnaly believe the more OS we save, the better... it would be a pity to just lose an OS version because some rare hosts....
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I agree with adriweb, especialy on the TI-Basic question. The math programming on TI-Nspire is much nicer than on the 84+, or even the prizm. I especially like try blocks, and its been a while, but I think you can break out of loops too.
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I would gladly host an OS, under the right circumstances. The Nspire really just needs a way to crash it and call to a random place in memory so you can run any code you want, no matter the OS. Hacking the boot code of a calculator would be the best way to do it, albeit a bit unsafe. That way, no matter the upgrade, if we set things up right, we'd be upgrade-proof, unless they try messing with the boot code we modified. So there you have it America. :)
One does not need such things as "ASM libraries to enchance BASIC programming" if you are a BASIC master. The only good thing about those is that it can speed things up, and take up less memory. However, it can cause crashes, weird behavior, compatibility issues, and confuse newbs who don't know anything about them. I've actually stopped using ANY libraries in my programming of TI BASIC.
I don't like TI not supporting OOP... Hmm. Well somebody tell me if my "boot hack" isn't a great idea, like it is for the Nintendo Wii?
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Dapianokid, your idea is 100% correct and is (imo) the best way to do it. The best way for this to happen is to install a custom boot1, as it gets launched first and does not have to be verified. However, all Nspires except for prototypes and Clickpad hw revs A and B have their boot1 flash set through hardware only to read, and not write. And since said flash is housed inside the ASIC on all models except the aforementioned, we currently have no way to get to it to hack it. The first step to do that would probably be to decap and analyze the chip, but that takes expensive equipment, and lots of money. IIRC, there's a fundraiser going on to do the same thing to the 3DS's ASIC. However, it's so expensive that it has to be funded entirely through donations and has not received nearly enough funds to do so, and it's been running for months. So yes, once we figure out a way to make ALL boot1 flash chips rewritable, your plan is the way to go. However, we currently have no way to do this. OR we could beg TI to let us do what we like, but sadly, that's not likely. I sent them an email requesting a dev version of the OS to be put out for us enthusiasts, but I got the standard 'your suggestion has been forwarded to our Nspire team' stuff.
And while we're at it, I can host files as well. I would happily host a full Nspire archive of all files (boot1, boot2, diags, OS, anything really). PM me if you'd like to discuss.
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As the boot1 isn't writeable, an exploit in it to run any boot2 would give us almost everything that a custom boot1 could.
Doesn't Lua support some aspects of OOP?
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Nlightened is my kind of guy, he knows! :P I understand the ASIC problem well, I am a supporter of the 3DS ASIC hacking community! Writing to a WOM/ROM without the originally intended hardware is so tricky that I would find is significantly easier to meet Batman. Even to become him.
So rebuild the OS with a nice little snippet at the start allowing us to homebrew easier? :)
Or exploit boot2, as was done with the Wii. That would work better. The reason they don't do it all with boot1 is because A: It costs more money, B: It allows for a different kind of security, and C: They don't have to have a very specific OS environment to work with, they can customize things all they want.
Lua looks like ANTI-OOP actually.
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Actually the Nspire Lua's OOP is pretty nice
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I haven't been following this thread, so sorry if a decision has already been made. I would personally choose a Prizm (or fx-9860GII). These calculators have amazing BASIC programmability. I wrote a random terrain generator in just 15 minutes. The nspire's BASIC programming doesn't have any Locate-like commands, and can't draw or take keypresses as input. Nspire Lua is an event-based programming language, which i think for most of us is an entirely new thing (especially for me). Plus, if you want to make "real" programs, you need to use Ndless (a hack, which I don't particularly like to do) to program in C. For the fx series of calculators, you can program in C natively with a free and easy to set up SDK. Since that C programming is supposed to be done on these calculators, there is a really nice and easy-to-use include file for programming for the fx series. These are all just my opinions, so do what you want.
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Believe it or not, there hasn't been a decision yet. I'm not a superprogrammer yet. I can't write a random terrain generator in 15 mins. Or 15 days, for that matter.
However, event-based programing is new to EVERYONE soo.. Thanks for bringing that up!
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With that 15-minute thing I was just trying to make a point about the variations between fx-basic and nspire-basic (as in, how the fx-basic lets you do tons of stuff easily and the nspire-basic not as much so (in some things)).
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Well I wouldn't mine more oncalc programmability for both of them, like a C compiler! Can't I use a text editor to write progs on either, or even a prog editor like the one on the 84+? and then compile or execute?
I like that he is focusing on mmy programing because that is a major concern. Before too long, the emulators on the Nspire should support all the gaming consoles I ever wanted, and all the TI calcs I ever wanted (Maybe the whole 8x series!!)... And the file transfer on it doesn't seem like much. Somebody told me it'd be difficult.
Did I mention to you guys I have severe ADHD? anyway...
I'll be looking for OS v. 3.2 exploits.
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About Nspire Lua, it has OOP natively (by natively I mean that the things to create classes and objects are already there).
Here's a simple example combining the event-based structure, classes, and user interaction : http://wiki.inspired-lua.org/Balls_Example
I actually find it (event-based) way better than "traditional" things, like C, say, where you actually have to make a look for catching keypresses :o An event just fits right in , for thies kinds of situation. Anyway, it's probably just a matter of getting used to it. Like the fact that when I tried looking at what the Casio-Basic code was like, I was about to throw the calc out the window :D (it was so werid for me compared to what I knew)
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Btw, what do you mean "otherwise people wouldn't be switching from Nspire dev to 84+ Axe one after another" ? I haven't really heard of people doing so ?
I recall people like Stefan Bauwens and maybe Nicco or ElementCoders who used to do Nspire stuff who switched to Axe after doing Nspire stuff for a while and I think there were other people who got a 84+ after getting an Nspire who somehow prefered Axe afterward. I think people like the 84+ program editor or the overall short syntax of BASIC and Axe.
As for PRIZM basic being that bad, yes it is except home screen stuff and maths. Home screen speed is on-par with the regular 83+ and 84+CSE, but graph screen commands takes 0.3 seconds to process each. If you try to fill a 96x64 area of the graph screen pixel by pixel this is how long it takes on each calc:
TI-84 Plus (15 MHz): 26.5 seconds
HP 39gII (66 MHz): 0.5 seconds
Casio PRIZM (58 MHz): 33 MINUTES! O.O
I have no clue how long does it take on a 84 Plus C Silver Edition, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was between 1 and 2 minutes.
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Ehm, I never programmed yet on an Nspire, so that's not true.
My brother does(he's the better programmer btw) and he only sticks to the Nspires...
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As the boot1 isn't writeable, an exploit in it to run any boot2 would give us almost everything that a custom boot1 could.
Doesn't Lua support some aspects of OOP?
We don't need an exploit but actually factoring the boot2 RSA keys. Once done => FREEDOM. But that would piss TI off very badly. :P
We could even write a custom OS that lets us do what we want (actually tangrs Linux port would be perfect with a GUI adapted to a calc/low resources). ;)
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As the boot1 isn't writeable, an exploit in it to run any boot2 would give us almost everything that a custom boot1 could.
Doesn't Lua support some aspects of OOP?
We don't need an exploit but actually factoring the boot2 RSA keys. Once done => FREEDOM. But that would @#!*% TI off very badly. :P
We could even write a custom OS that lets us do what we want (actually tangrs Linux port would be perfect with a GUI adapted to a calc/low resources). ;)
Well that works too, but any hacker knows that factoring RSA's isn't easy without major computer power or a supergenius. tangrs linux would rock. :)
What is the progress on factoring the RSA's?
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The number of bits used for they key makes it impossible for anybody to crack it in a bruteforce way, as of this post's time.
(it would take idk how many years....)
More details here, I believe : http://ourl.ca/6236/99664
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Said keys are randomly generated, correct?
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I think so.
Also to factor them, we could set something up like a "lend computing power" network so that everyone can contribute. Such a massive parallell brute forcing would be pretty fast.
Is the RSA 128 bits ? Or more ? :P
Edit : Holy crap it's 1024 bits ! *.*
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1024 on Classics, 2048 on CX.
And while we could do the computing distribution system, it took months for the z80 and 68k calcs, it'll take years for the Nspires.
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But WHY do they use military level security keys on a calc ? That's just stupid.
Could reverse engineering the boot2 allow us to find the key ?
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I thought about that too, but idk if its possible
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Could reverse engineering the boot2 allow us to find the key ?
The boot2 contains the public key, which is already known.
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Ehm, I never programmed yet on an Nspire, so that's not true.
My brother does(he's the better programmer btw) and he only sticks to the Nspires...
Ah my bad then. I am fairly sure that there are some people who used to do Lua/Ndless who switched to Axe, though.
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Here is the deal...
I'm a hacker and I was a noob on other subjects, but on subjects like this, I know my ****. :P
The key isn't hard to generate. It doesn't cost a lot of money to have such good security. It's always nice to have good security! So TI decided to have great security. Easy to generate keys, FRICKING HARD to brute force. If I devoted my best computer's entire CPU, video card GPU, and resources alike, it'd take me years even still to get it done. The GIMPS project is a wonderful example of networked collaborative throughput sucking every inch out of every computer they can get people to run it on. There are online networks designed to help other people set up networks to hack RSA's, I believe.