Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: Ashbad on May 26, 2011, 11:51:14 am
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Hello, my fellow peers of the calculator community:
As of yesterday, TI did something we would have never expected them to do: they opened us up to full development rights for Lua programming with decent tools and all. This brings us back into an era of peace with our mortal enemy, Texas Instruments, as they obviously don't squelch us highly skilled programmers and hackers as they used to. However, should we trust them?
Let's go back in time for a minute and look at what they've done to us in the last 3 years. In 2007, the TI-Nspire was released, and the original versions had no programming support whatsoever, lacking even a BASIC language. In 2008, they included Nspire BASIC in later OSes, but by this time half of the community was already fed up, and we dropped into the doldrums of 2008, where little to no calculator development took place. They singlehandedly almost killed us all. In 2009, however, the community picked themselves up and started again, knocking a few chips off their shoulders from previous experiences. By 2010, Ndless was created. And the malicious TI struck again, consistently trying their hardest with their obviously brain-dead programmers to lock us out of C and Assembly development. By 2011, they finally hired decent programmers and were able to lock us out of 3rd party development almost entirely.
Should we trust them now?
On another note, Casio has been turning a blind eye to us lately, and I commend them for that. The Casio fx-CG10/20 Prizm was a huge success amongst programmers in these parts of the web. It already has decent support for C and SH4 assembly programming, putting it leagues above Lua-only programming. With C, we already are in the midst of many other languages coming to fruition -- Qwerty.55 (or fishbot) and z80man have been hard at work making Khavi, a multi-language interpreter framework that is set to support Java and Lua at base release, and by extension JRuby, Jython, and Groovy are also supported. There are rumors concerning the ability to use fully-functional C++ soon via some additions the GCC SDK created by Jonimus, Tari, and others. And, I, lastly, am creating a whole new language, Emerald, for the Prizm. That's a lot more than just Lua. And slow Lua, at that again.
While I cannot make any decisions for you, I just wanted to fill everyone in on my opinion, being that TI obviously doesn't want us doing any significant development on their calculators, while Casio is probably in secret joy we're helping them out a little. My question to you all: Why should we turn to the dark side of limited TI calculator programming, when we can have the infinitely more supremely open-to-third-party-software Casio calculator programming? I personally will never buy a TI calculator again, Lua support thrown together at the last minute to sugarcoat my opinion of the monopoly won't undo the evils they issued on us in the past -- at least in my mind.
Thanks for your time,
Ashbad
EDIT: and, I am interested to hear your opinions as well, feel free to post them below!
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TI will probably continue to try to stop Ndless on the Nspire. ExtendeD has started making Ndless 3.0, and I'm not going to be surprised if TI releases yet another OS that does nothing except for blocking it...
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If they're inviting us back, what's the harm in going there?
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My bet is that they will add extra protections in their as yet anounced OS. It will probably have something that lets only TI-approved apps be run.
Everything above is pure guesses and inferences
I personally would get a Prizm rather than a CX.
I might be a little hard on TI but at least to me they have proved I need to be hard on them.
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Hmm.. interesting. But this wouldn't stop me from buying an 'older' TI, for example the z80 calcs, or the 68K calcs to be able to program, and run programs made for them. It is nice to have fun with just an 'old', black and white, simple calc. But if you have to choose between the PRISM or the CX, I guess the PRISM is probably the best(judging on what I heard).
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Although I suppose TI has "opened up", I still believe there is still a sinister intention behind the LUA tools. I mean, why would TI suddenly allow programs other than TI-BASIC? Wasn't the nSpire designed to counter "cheating"?
It could be possible that the release is to discourage the ndless developers, now that a "new platform" is available. I still think that an update will lock LUA apps in PTT mode.
How about we just spectate how this fiasco plays out, then decide whether we want to go back or not? Haven't we always been "in the dark side"?
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That is the reason that they might not allow games, but well programs(that they approve?).
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TI invites us back, but should we go to the dark side?
Why not? There's no way we can be harmed :)
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They were maybe going bankrupt because of all those people who weren't buying there calcs anymore(us :P). So they desided to do this, hoping it will save them. And maybe it will, but if we don't buy there calcs because Casio's are better, they better do something EVEN better. :P
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Keep in mind we are the vast minority of TI calculator users. However, very few use the Nspire anyways, and I heard TI lost a lot of money on the touchpad versions that they came out with later.
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Don't worry, TI will not get bankrupt, the calculator sections is just a little part of everything ;)
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TI will probably continue to try to stop Ndless on the Nspire. ExtendeD has started making Ndless 3.0, and I'm not going to be surprised if TI releases yet another OS that does nothing except for blocking it...
That looks like Nintendo. The last 2 System Menu updates for the Wii did absolutely nothing but delete the homebrew you had on your Wii.
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Also, how can we trust TI for keeping Lua support for good? It is very possible they will require paid licenses and/or teacher certificates at any time. I suggest we don't even take this as a good sign -- who knows if they're just luring us in so we will buy it and shut up, then in OS 3.1 or 4.0 or the like shut us back out?
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I'm still not trusting them. They still haven't opened OS 3.0.1 to ASM/C development nor stopped blocking Ndless on it. They did a step in the right direction by allowing Lua, but who knows if it's not to sell a SDK and disallow any community tools to generate Lua files for free in the future? After all, back in 1999-2003 the 83+ Flash Debugger SDK was paid.
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Something I'm wondering about is why they chose to add a 0D compression requirement in 3.0.2, blocking all of our Lua programs, but then give us a method to create 0D-compressed files so that we can use Lua again...
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Something I'm wondering about is why they chose to add a 0D compression requirement in 3.0.2, blocking all of our Lua programs, but then give us a method to create 0D-compressed files so that we can use Lua again...
Because they had no idea we'd find out about Lua and even hate them for blocking it and C and Asm.
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Something I'm wondering about is why they chose to add a 0D compression requirement in 3.0.2, blocking all of our Lua programs, but then give us a method to create 0D-compressed files so that we can use Lua again...
Because they had no idea we'd find out about Lua and even hate them for blocking it and C and Asm.
We found out about Lua before TI even realized that 3.0.1 was glitchy. If we didn't know about how we accessed Lua, how could they remove our method of accessing Lua?
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/me wants a copy of the SDK now.
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Maybe they just got sick of always blocking stuff and just said "Oh, what the hell..".
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Will LUA programs made for System 3.0.2 run on 3.0.1?
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Will LUA programs made for System 3.0.2 run on 3.0.1?
Yes.
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That's good. I have a copy of 3.0.1 and I'll just TNOC it.
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Something I'm wondering about is why they chose to add a 0D compression requirement in 3.0.2, blocking all of our Lua programs, but then give us a method to create 0D-compressed files so that we can use Lua again...
They pulled an Obama-nomics stunt and did it just so they could seem in more control while in reality they just wasted more money. However, since it's not the country I love but rather the monopoly I hate, I can laugh at them for doing so :)
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Exactly Ashbad
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We should get an interview with someone in the corporate office and ask why they are doing this.
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Where could I get SDK for making compressed 3.0.2 programs?
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Its on TI-BANK I believe
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Something I'm wondering about is why they chose to add a 0D compression requirement in 3.0.2, blocking all of our Lua programs, but then give us a method to create 0D-compressed files so that we can use Lua again...
It's not because they're to 3rd party Lua (Well for now at least) it's because they want to stay in control. By adding the compression step it is easier for them to manage how much development we do. If teachers start complaining about Lua, then TI might require a license to develop programs which they could do easily. Honestly the worst-case scenario is if we get ndless through Lua. If that happens TI will drop it for sure.
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Lua seems our best bet for ndless right now though so we might soon see some problems
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Lua seems our best bet for ndless right now though so we might soon see some problems
Can it hurt to go along with ti on this and buy their product for lua programing? Yes it sure can. The investment of time and money is all lost when they clamp down again. And I can't believe for a second that ti has all of a sudden become a bunch of nice guys that want to help us create games. As soon as their teacher clients screem NO! NO GAMES! Ti will screw us again. Mean while the Casio Prizm has provided programing opportunities that the nspire still does not provide. I think that it is clear that the Prizm, and not the nspire, is the platform in our future.
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The Nspire could be better if we could find a way to open it up to development
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The Nspire could be better if we could find a way to open it up to development
Yes, but ti is very persistent in only letting us do the programing that they approve of and I don't want them controlling me that way. Perhaps I am wrong about this but I just don't see butting heads with ti as being productive in the long run and my message to ti is: Ok, you are not going to completely open your nspire to programing, so fine, keep your nspire. I'll use something else.
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Dingus, remember, though, to not try to discourage people from making games for the Nspire on the forums, though, especially the ones who already own a TI-Nspire. As much as we hate TI in general, we need to continue supporting the people who contribute for the TI community no matter what calculator they use or program for.
I remember someone on United-TI who wanted UTI to close the entire TI-Nspire section of their site and delete all posts, even if some people were still posting there sometimes. I feel it was rather counter-productive for the TI community. I personally will encourage people to get a Prizm instead of a CX, but I will not try to badmouth people who decide to go otherwise.
I personally do not have plans to get a CX now, unless I can get one for cheap on Ebay. I'm fine with my other calcs, especially my Prizm and 84+.
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The Nspire could be better if we could find a way to open it up to development
yeah the CX's specs are pretty much awesome, colours, fast processor, lots of memory.
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Dingus, remember, though, to not try to discourage people from making games for the Nspire on the forums, though, especially the ones who already own a TI-Nspire. As much as we hate TI in general, we need to continue supporting the people who contribute for the TI community no matter what calculator they use or program for.
I remember someone on United-TI who wanted UTI to close the entire TI-Nspire section of their site and delete all posts, even if some people were still posting there sometimes. I feel it was rather counter-productive for the TI community. I personally will encourage people to get a Prizm instead of a CX, but I will not try to badmouth people who decide to go otherwise.
I personally do not have plans to get a CX now, unless I can get one for cheap on Ebay. I'm fine with my other calcs, especially my Prizm and 84+.
Good point DJ_O. Sorry if my message came across as discouraging to the people who are making games for the Nspire. That was not my intent. I was just expressing my way of dealing with the frustrations ti has caused. There has been some extemely very valuable work done by the very talented people here who are working with the nspire and I appreciate the developments that they have achieved.
I also do not have plans to get a CX as I am satisfied with my 84SE, Voyage200 and the Prizm for future programing efforts.
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Slightly OT: The nSpire has great potential. It is only limited by the company's unethical limiting practices. But I still don't understand why the nSpire is "held back", even though the "standard" is an 84 or 84SE. I mean, if engineers and math enthusiasts are the general users of the nSpire, then why limit them? It's most likely that TI wants to stay within the SAT limits for a calculator, but that test only comes once (or twice) in a lifetime for students. After that, they're in college or at a job. And at that point, the limits will only hurt more since they deter functionality so much.
I'll change my standpoint to that we should embrace both "standards", test the new LUA and see how limited it is. Then we will wait to see which standard will prevail over the other.
Fun fact: For mac, the nSpire desktop program was written in Java.
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Indeed. They have built a locked-down test mode in the Nspire's OS, so they could embrace openness (TI-BASIC + Lua + C/C++/ASM) in the standard mode.
Whether they embrace openness or they don't, someone could find a way to subvert the test mode through one of the arbitrary code execution vulnerabilities.
I think TINCS is presumably Java with native code - at least, that's how the online Nspire document player is made :)
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@AGVolnutt: Teachers and students are the main user-base, that is why. This calculator was developed based largely on what the teachers wanted. Teachers want a calculator only, not a machine that provides distraction in the form of gaming. Although you could make a case for math and other types of programs, a quick look at Ticalc.org's archives will tell you that games are the most popular things being made (well...that and quadratic equation solvers... :P). They also want it closed to dev in order to prevent cheating (even though those that cheat will still find ways). Those are/were their main reasons.
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This will only deter students who don't really ant to cheat. If you really wanted to cheat I'm sure you could find a way around it. I am saying you as a person and not directed at any one person
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@AGVolnutt: Teachers and students are the main user-base, that is why. This calculator was developed based largely on what the teachers wanted.
Actually "high school" teachers and students are the main user-base and because high school math is quite weak, producing a calculator (the nspire) for high school math results in a second rate math device compared to the Hp50 and Classpad have had more math capability than any ti calc for many years. But I suppose that ti did do what they set out to do, i.e., produce a device that can be used for high school math.
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High school specifically yes. :)
From what I understood the HP 50 was more geared towards engineering. And yea I have heard that many engineers prefer them over the comparable TI-89. I don't know much about the class pad so I can't say.
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High school specifically yes. From what I understood the HP 50 was more geared towards engineering.
True but keep in mind that it also has all the high school math capability. The same can be said for the Classpad. What the nspire series lacks, ti makes up for with sales stuff like spin, seminars, and others perks for teachers.
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Ah, ok. Wasn't too sure about that aspect of those calcs.
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Hmm TexasInstrumentsCalc sent me a friend request on Youtube O.O
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It must be an evil plot to subvert the omni leadership lol
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This is funny though because 3 of my vids are TI-Nspire Ndless stuff, which they still try to block, one bashing the Nspire and I got 3 Casio Prizm vids XD
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Like I said it is obviously a conspiracy
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They've sent friend request to other people too, like Kerm and Brandon.
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Kerm apparently got an email from TI about this, I think all of the most influential people (admins and founders of the main TI sites) are getting them.
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I got one too O_o
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maybe I should make a youtube account ;D
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maybe I should make a youtube account ;D
Not everyone gets a friend request... I, and probably many others, didn't.
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Hmm TexasInstrumentsCalc sent me a friend request on Youtube O.O
Idem
And trust me or not, but on Youtube I don't upload as much vid's as on my Vimeo account (upload at 16Ko/s doesn't help), but the only related vid' I've got, is the Ndless trailer x)
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My three videos on YouTube are related to the Nspire: one showcases the bugginess of the linking protocol implementation on OS 1.7.2741, the second one showcases OS 1.7.2741 CAS proudly running on a non-CAS Nspire (this video used to be private until critor released a tutorial for OSLauncher), and the third one showcases DummyOS.
Perhaps this explains why I haven't received any friend request from TexasInstrumentsCalc :D
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My three videos on YouTube are related to the Nspire: one showcases the bugginess of the linking protocol implementation on OS 1.7.2741, the second one showcases OS 1.7.2741 CAS proudly running on a non-CAS Nspire (this video used to be private until critor released a tutorial for OSLauncher), and the third one showcases DummyOS.
Perhaps this explains why I haven't received any friend request from TexasInstrumentsCalc :D
I'm surprsied they sent one to DJ he is a supporter of out hacking of the calc. I'd think they'd hate him for starting omni the great calc hacking website
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My three videos on YouTube are related to the Nspire: one showcases the bugginess of the linking protocol implementation on OS 1.7.2741, the second one showcases OS 1.7.2741 CAS proudly running on a non-CAS Nspire (this video used to be private until critor released a tutorial for OSLauncher), and the third one showcases DummyOS.
Perhaps this explains why I haven't received any friend request from TexasInstrumentsCalc :D
I'm surprsied they sent one to DJ he is a supporter of out hacking of the calc. I'd think they'd hate him for starting omni the great calc hacking website
The ones who take care of TI's YouTube channel probably don't notice the difference between hacking and math - they just look at the videos and see that there are calcs in them. :P
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My three videos on YouTube are related to the Nspire: one showcases the bugginess of the linking protocol implementation on OS 1.7.2741, the second one showcases OS 1.7.2741 CAS proudly running on a non-CAS Nspire (this video used to be private until critor released a tutorial for OSLauncher), and the third one showcases DummyOS.
Perhaps this explains why I haven't received any friend request from TexasInstrumentsCalc :D
I'm surprsied they sent one to DJ he is a supporter of out hacking of the calc. I'd think they'd hate him for starting omni the great calc hacking website
The ones who take care of TI's YouTube channel probably don't notice the difference between hacking and math - they just look at the videos and see that there are calcs in them. :P
If they didn't test OS3.0.1 on a clickpad nSpire and ended up bricking hundreds, why would they perform a shallow background check either?
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They might send a request to me in the future to brainwash me back to their side :P
I'm into all that Casio stuff now and am hurting their nspire sales ;)
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What goes around comes around.
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They deserve to lose sales.
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Hmm TexasInstrumentsCalc sent me a friend request on Youtube O.O
DON'T DO IT IT'S A TRAP! :o
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Hmm TexasInstrumentsCalc sent me a friend request on Youtube O.O
DON'T DO IT IT'S A TRAP! :o
Its a conspiracy to undermine all calc-hacking/gaming leadership