Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: mikehill2003 on March 16, 2011, 01:55:20 pm
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Greetings fellow calculator enthusiasts,
I have a TI-89T for programming and an HP-50g for math, and am considering purchasing a TI-Nspire CAS+ (for $50) for general math. Since you guys are quite knowledgeable about this kind of thing, and some members have a CAS+, I was hoping you could answer a few questions of mine.
What are the differences between the old CAS+ OS and the newer ones on the CAS Touchpad?
Since I am not concerned with always updating the OS on my 89T and 50g, I dont think I will care about being stuck on an old OS on the CAS+. Am I wrong?
Is the hardware any different from the non-prototype CAS Nspires?
The reasons I am considering "upgrading" from my TI-89T are its lack of mathprint, tiny screen (even when compared to the *crappy* screen of the HP-50g), and general slowness compared to the 50g. Will I be disappointed with the CAS+'s "improvements" over the TI-89T?
Thanks for reading ;D
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Yes, it has some serious bugs. The calc will sometimes fail to turn on the screen, making you think the batteries are dead while they're draining away.
Also, the hardware is roughly the same, to my knowledge, besides the fact that the CAS+ has diff. OSes, and only one at that.
Math functions are the same.
I recommend against it, but you can if you're willing to live with those.
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The old Nspire CAS+ prototype OS 1.0 can't open documents created by more recent production TI-Nspire OSes.
The TI-Nspire CAS+ prototype OS 1.0 can't exchange data through USB with production TI-Nspire.
And nobody has been able up to now to update the TI-Nspire CAS+ prototype OS 1.0...
If it's a money problem, you can find TI-Nspire CAS ClickPads allmost as cheap as TI-Nspire CAS+.
You'll be able to do much more on them...
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allso, if MP is all you're after, it pains me to say this (the MP oses have many programming-related bugs), but an 84+ with the latest OS has mathprint. 83+s don't though, unless you hack the OS (I think someone did it, but it causes problems)
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Yes, it has some serious bugs. The calc will sometimes fail to turn on the screen, making you think the batteries are dead while they're draining away.
The old Nspire CAS+ prototype OS 1.0 can't open documents created by more recent production TI-Nspire OSes.
The TI-Nspire CAS+ prototype OS 1.0 can't exchange data through USB with production TI-Nspire.
If it's a money problem, you can find TI-Nspire CAS ClickPads allmost as cheap as TI-Nspire CAS+.
You'll be able to do much more on them...
Wow! Thanks for the prompt reply, I guess the extra $20 for a CAS Clickpad is really worth it then. Any suggestions on where to get one besides ebay and amazon?
allso, if MP is all you're after, it pains me to say this (the MP oses have many programming-related bugs), but an 84+ with the latest OS has mathprint. 83+s don't though, unless you hack the OS (I think someone did it, but it causes problems)
The 84+ is still around and being updated? Pardon my lack of current knowledge on TI's calculator lineup, but is this because of the 84+ keypad for the regular nspire? I don't really understand why they would keep such an outdated calculator around for so long and still update the OS.
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Hi and welcome on the forums. In any case I also recommend against the CAS+, since it cannot be updated through regular means.
The 84+ is still being produced because it's the most popular of all TI calcs. Lots of people get it for high school since most manuals are written for it there and there are much more games being released. Otherwise its hardware is indeed outdated.
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I really wouldn't recommended using a prototype CAS+ for general math. It's really only good if you're into hacking and stuff. But if you don't mind having a Casio calc I would highly recommend the Prizm. It offers many great features and a color screen for $130 from stores. (you could probably find a better deal on ebay) and I know you wanted a calc for general math, but we all know that at some point you are going to want put some games on there. And the Prizm has the advantage of being more open to development than the nspire. (especially the prototypes) :P)
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Yes, stay away from CAS+ prototypes.
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Thanks for the warnings! I would get a Prizm, but I don't really care for the color screen (battery life is more important to me). Also, even though I don't use it very often, the CAS on my TI-89T and HP-50g is really nice. I would hate to buy a new calculator without CAS. ( I also have a Casio fx-9750GA+. Nice calc, but I rarely use it.)
Unfortunately, as someone who enjoys taking things apart to learn how they work, I am still somewhat interested in the CAS+. Does anyone know if the OS is encrypted (on the NAND Flash)? Has anyone tried to directly dump the OS from it?
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Yes, significant work for trying to understand and reflash the CAS+ prototypes is currently underway, in another section of this forum and on the French-speaking TI-Bank forum. See, for example, http://ourl.ca/9688 :)
The prospect of reflashing CAS+ prototypes with the OS of commercial CAS models seems bleak, though.
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Actually the Prizm does have a very long battery life. I've had my Prizm since Christmas now and I use it for at least one hour everyday. In that time I have not changed the batteries once.
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Yeah, the TI-Nspire battery life, especially on older OSes, is worse than on the Prizm. Unfortunately, the Prizm lacks a CAS, though (unless the TI/Casio community creates one)
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Yes, significant work for trying to understand and reflash the CAS+ prototypes is currently underway, in another section of this forum and on the French-speaking TI-Bank forum. See, for example, http://ourl.ca/9688 :)
The prospect of reflashing CAS+ prototypes with the OS of commercial CAS models seems bleak, though.
Yeah, based on the info from that thread replacing the CAS+ OS with one signed with the production keys would be difficult. In my post I meant something a little more direct then the RS-232 USB Comm. I was referring to the NAND Flash-ROM.
(http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-NspireCASD_NAND.jpg)
Its been quite a while since I had to solder onto SMT stuff.
Actually the Prizm does have a very long battery life. I've had my Prizm since Christmas now and I use it for at least one hour everyday. In that time I have not changed the batteries once.
Impressive. Is there a C compiler for it or is it ASM only?
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There's a C compiler for the Prizm :)
http://ourl.ca/9205
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Keep in mind the calc is not super documented yet, though, so so far the most that can be done is stuff like this:
(http://i-lost-the-ga.me/prizmanimation.gif)
Note, this runs 3 times smoother on a real calc than in the screenshot.
This writes directly to the LCD. Once people can write to a buffer then update everything on the LCD at once, it will most likely be much faster.
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Unfortunately, as someone who enjoys taking things apart to learn how they work, I am still somewhat interested in the CAS+. Does anyone know if the OS is encrypted (on the NAND Flash)? Has anyone tried to directly dump the OS from it?
If the CAS+ is anything like the released TI-Nspire/TI-Nspire CAS, then the OS is encrypted but the encryption key is present in the second-stage boot loader, which is merely compressed (and we can easily decompress it).
However, I don't think anybody has tried to dump the NAND flash by means of hardware hacking; I didn't know that was even feasible.
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Unfortunately, as someone who enjoys taking things apart to learn how they work, I am still somewhat interested in the CAS+. Does anyone know if the OS is encrypted (on the NAND Flash)? Has anyone tried to directly dump the OS from it?
If the CAS+ is anything like the released TI-Nspire/TI-Nspire CAS, then the OS is encrypted but the encryption key is present in the second-stage boot loader, which is merely compressed (and we can easily decompress it).
However, I don't think anybody has tried to dump the NAND flash by means of hardware hacking; I didn't know that was even feasible.
Well, I don't own an Nspire CAS(+ or not) yet, so I can't say for sure if it is feasible on an Nspire, but it has worked just fine for me on many other NAND Flash chips. ;D
Give me a few minutes and I'll find a simple tutorial.
This guy used an xD card reader. Simple ('cause xD cards are raw NAND in an expensive package) but it works pretty well. xD cards are pretty useful because you can use them to make a second, removable NAND. (Warning: Because the card reader contains the NAND controller chip, not all card readers work.)
http://busydizzys.com/index.php/2010/12/24/reading-embedded-flash-chips-nand-tsop-without-removal (http://busydizzys.com/index.php/2010/12/24/reading-embedded-flash-chips-nand-tsop-without-removal)
Soldering this stuff is somewhat difficult. A microscope, steady hand, and hot glue really help.
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Unfortunately, as someone who enjoys taking things apart to learn how they work, I am still somewhat interested in the CAS+. Does anyone know if the OS is encrypted (on the NAND Flash)? Has anyone tried to directly dump the OS from it?
If the CAS+ is anything like the released TI-Nspire/TI-Nspire CAS, then the OS is encrypted but the encryption key is present in the second-stage boot loader, which is merely compressed (and we can easily decompress it).
However, I don't think anybody has tried to dump the NAND flash by means of hardware hacking; I didn't know that was even feasible.
Well, I don't own an Nspire CAS(+ or not) yet, so I can't say for sure if it is feasible on an Nspire, but it has worked just fine for me on many other NAND Flash chips. ;D
Give me a few minutes and I'll find a simple tutorial.
Interesting. I've got several CAS+ so I can take the risk.
But I've only got an EPROM programmer :(
The NAND chip is a ST NAND256W3A.
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Interesting. I've got several CAS+ so I can take the risk.
But I've only got an EPROM programmer :(
The NAND chip is a ST NAND256W3A.
Thanks, I'll try to find a datasheet.
Okay, here is the xD card pinout
http://pinouts.ru/Memory/xd_card_pinout.shtml (http://pinouts.ru/Memory/xd_card_pinout.shtml)
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There is a photo of the inside of a CAS+ plus that I have been
wondering about for a year and a half:
http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_CASP.htm#memory
Is that white 30 pin J02 connector possibly the JTAG connector ?
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Pinouts!
Now I will look for a suitable xD card reader. These might work:
http://www.amazon.com/FUJIFILM-DPC-R1-Card-reader/dp/B000087A98/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1300915680&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/OLYMPUS-MAUSB-10-xD-Picture-SmartMedia-Package/dp/B00006OX8Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1300915651&sr=8-1
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There is a photo of the inside of a CAS+ plus that I have been
wondering about for a year and a half:
http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_CASP.htm#memory
Is that white 30 pin J02 connector possibly the JTAG connector ?
Did you notice that there strangely 2 such white connectors on the older CAS+ I have?
http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_CASE.htm#TI-OMAP
http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_CASPG.htm#TI-OMAP
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Those aren't for the keyboard?
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Those aren't for the keyboard?
J02, probably...
But what's the purpose of the J04 present on older CAS+?
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Yes , I did - I just pick one photo.
Its interesting thats the one obvious connection inside the Nspire, that
to my knowledge no one has attempted ?
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Wow! Thanks for pointing that out bsl! Looking at the CAS+ and CAS boards side by side, there are some large differences between them. Now I really doubt that the CAS+ can run a production OS.
Those aren't for the keyboard?
J02, probably...
But what's the purpose of the J04 present on older CAS+?
I can't really tell from that photo where the traces lead.
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Hm... I'm not good at soldering... Allready had problems with the dock connector.
And I'll probably be much worse at micro-soldering...
Bsl? You think you could try that?
Once we get at least one image of a CAS+ boot2 + OS, we may find software-ways for dumping all other CAS+ versions.
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Its between a card reader or a JTAG connection.
I haven't done hardware stuff for a while.
The card reader is the direct approach, a JTAG connection would be the best way(If it can be done at all ?)
There is JTAG software out there already, I would have to read more about JTAG and trace runs on the board.
I think ExtendeD did a little work on this.
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Wow! Thanks for pointing that out bsl! Looking at the CAS+ and CAS boards side by side, there are some large differences between them. Now I really doubt that the CAS+ can run a production OS.
Those aren't for the keyboard?
J02, probably...
But what's the purpose of the J04 present on older CAS+?
I can't really tell from that photo where the traces lead.
You might see better on this one:
http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_P.htm#PCB
A TI-XXXXXXXXXXX (basic TI-Nspire prototype), which seems to have a similar connector.
The connector is not soldered on final basic TI-Nspire.
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It looks like some of the dock connector traces hook to it, but I can't be sure. It might be an SD card host though! That would be so nice.....
I actually sent a TI-Cares email suggesting an SD card connector because of the decreased space from 3.0, and got a reply back saying they would forward my suggestion to the RnD department... :thumbsup:
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ExtendeD worked a bit on the J04 connector in commercial models, indeed. But no JTAG (in standard format) seemed to be available.
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ExtendeD worked a bit on the J04 connector in commercial models, indeed. But no JTAG (in standard format) seemed to be available.
So is a NAND reader our best chance right now?
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ExtendeD worked a bit on the J04 connector in commercial models, indeed. But no JTAG (in standard format) seemed to be available.
So is a NAND reader our best chance right now?
Seems so. Who is skilled enough to try?
I cannot keep the oldest 1.0.3xx and 1.0.4xx CAS+ forever...
- So we need to hard-dump OS 1.0.554 (the most common on production CAS+). I could try, but I'm sure I'll break everything...
- Then we should test soft-exploits to dump the older 1.0.529 OS (early production CAS+) - as I have severall of them.
- Then once the soft-exploits are safe enough, we should try them with the older 1.0.3xx and 1.0.4xx OSes.
The 1.0.4xx OS seems quite similar to 1.0.5xx OSes. I suppose it should work. The 1.0.3xx OS is different and "strange"...
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If I were to buy a CAS+ on ebay, which is the OS version it would most likely come with?
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So is a NAND reader our best chance right now?
Another choice- if you know someone that works with embedded systems and has the equipment for this
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If I were to buy a CAS+ on ebay, which is the OS version it would most likely come with?
Probably 1.0.554 if the CAS+ is manufactured in september or october 2006 (which are the most frequent).
Early production CAS+ manufactured in august or early september 2006 should come with the 1.0.529 OS, but it's much more rare.
Any other version would be collector! :P
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This would be funny if someone found a sub-1.0 OS version number. I remember when people found OS 0.46 for the TI-84 Plus.
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I doubt we would get that any other way than we got OS 0.46 though, since CAS+s were released to store owners after being deemed "Useable" and therefore worthy of a 1.0
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How did you find OS 0.46?
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We got it from TI's site, with an accidental upload when they updated the OS. They fixed it in a few hours, but we got it :)
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Wow. They accidentally uploaded a really old version? :o
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Yep, and it had remnants of external printer support, if I remember correctly :P it was also really buggy.
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Yep, and it had remnants of external printer support
Those remnants are also included in OSes 2.21 & 2.22.
They've been removed starting from OS 2.30.
So? Has anyone tried to dump the CAS+ the hardware way?
I'm ok to send a free replacement TI-Nspire CAS+ if you brick it.
I would be glad to do it myself but with such a chip, I've got the kind of iron solder which will probably solder three pins instead of one...
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The standard trick in soldering microelectronics with a high wattage iron is to
wrap a thin copper wire on the tip of your soldering iron, to make a small
hot contact.
Make it long enough , then cut pieces of the wire shorter and shorter, till its hot enough
to melt the solder.
A solder sucker is the preferred way to eliminate the solder from the nand-board bond.
Update: Check your local electronics hobby store for desoldering tools also.(mention for microelectronics)
There are inexpensive tools I found at my store .
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The standard trick in soldering microelectronics with a high wattage iron is to
wrap a thin copper wire on the tip of your soldering iron, to make a small
hot contact.
Make it long enough , then cut pieces of the wire shorter and shorter, till its hot enough
to melt the solder.
A solder sucker is the preferred way to eliminate the solder from the nand-board bond.
Update: Check your local electronics hobby store for desoldering tools also.(mention for microelectronics)
There are inexpensive tools I found at my store [Radio Shack ]. Is Radio Shack in France ?
You think he should remove the NAND before dumping it?
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Well, that's how you hook it up to a NAND reader. :P unless you use a software exploit, it's pretty much required.
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Well, that's how you hook it up to a NAND reader. :P unless you use a software exploit, it's pretty much required.
:P
Not really. You can try to dump it without removing the chip from the board (works most of the time, and is much easier to not destroy the NAND). Do you have a specific NAND reader in mind, or do you mean a modified xD card adapter?
And critor, I'm not a professional, but if you need SMT soldering tips I could make some infographics for you tomorrow that might help. I may not be good enough with software right now to recreate RunOS, but I am pretty good with hardware.
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I've ordered the Fujifilm DPC R1 xD card reader mentionned previously.
http://ourl.ca/9674/188743
I'm going to try dumping the CAS+ NAND ROM like that, as it seems it's the only way left for now.
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Here is the CAS+ NAND ROM pinout.
Unmarked pins are not connected to anything.
(http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/13/23/13/53/caspna10.png)
Here are the matching pins on an xD card:
(http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/13/23/13/53/caspxd11.jpg)
Before I spend hours bricking some CAS+, can you confirm me these are ok?
Thanks.
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Received the xD card reader.
Opened a CAS+ with OS 1.0.554...
Looked at the NAND ROM pins......
Err......... How many zero in my success probability?... :(
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If the small solder contacts look too small to you.
Practice soldering on an old radio or something, with the soldering suggestion I gave on this thread.
When you get good at it - then do it on the CAS+
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I'm currently trying to trace out some alternative points to solder to, instead of directly to the NAND chip.
But this won't be possible for all pins.
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A little photo for you, after gathering all the material, and before the disaster...
(http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/23/13/53/img_6611.jpg)
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Good luck with this...hope it turns out ok ;D
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I'm curious to know if this has worked out :)
Maybe I'll do this myself, but I'm a bit afraid since I only have one nspire x)
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Unfortunately, I'm missing time because of the TI-Bank problems...
Just try it. If you fail, I'll ship you a replacement CAS+ with OS 1.0.554. :)
If you succeed, I'll ship you a CAS+ with the older and rarer 1.0.529 OS. :)
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But they don't support Lua :p
Maybe i'll do it, because I have every thing I need :)
Just need to do some more research!
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Nice job guys! I got an nspire CAS+ several months ago, but haven't had time to do this yet (I've been so busy I haven't even been on Omnimaga in ages).
Good luck!
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Meh, sadly enough I can't do this with my nspire touchpad because its has a nand chip were I can't solder on :(
http://datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_NSpire_TP.htm#memory
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But you don't need to do that with a TouchPad.
It would be usefull to do that:
- with a CAS+ (in order to be able to reinstall the OS as the matching .tnc files have never been published)
- with a CX (as we do need the Boot1 because the Boot2 is not encoded binary code anymore...)
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Did they really go back to having boot1 in a separate flash chip for the CX? (The Touchpad TI-Nspire has boot1 built into the ASIC, so the only feasible way to dump it is by running code.)
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Oops, sorry Goplat.
Seems our problem is much more complicated than I thought :P
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I was already thinking that it wouldn't be necessary, but I wasn't sure. So thanks for en lighting me :)
I guess that the CX will also have a similar NAND chip that can't be read :/
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critor: Does your CX still have OS 3.0.1? I found a software exploit that might work.
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Sorry Goplat, too late unless I find a way to downgrade...
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I bought a CX recently with 3.0.1
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I bought a CX recently with 3.0.1
If you can set up an RS232 connection and want to try some dumping, email me.
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I was going to build the circuit , buts its easier and cheaper
to order the circuit http://www.ioffer.com/i/USB-to-RS232-Module-Based-TTL-PC-FTDI-FT232BM-BL-chip--67532016 (http://www.ioffer.com/i/USB-to-RS232-Module-Based-TTL-PC-FTDI-FT232BM-BL-chip--67532016)
Let me order it and get it up and running and then i will get back with you.
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I think that we shouldn't even be talking about the discovery of potential exploits publicly :)
TI is very eager to keep the platform closed.
I too have a CX running OS 3.0.1.1753, and a FTDI-TTL-232R-3V3 USB - RS232 adapter. I can perform the dumping from unspecified tools on Linux or virtualized (VirtualBox 4.1.0) Windows XP SP3.
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Someone have the manual of this calc?
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There is no manual for the CAS+, since that calc was never meant to be sold. You might be able to find the manual for the current models on TI website somewhere at http://education.ti.com , though, although the interface in newer OSes might be different.
Welcome to the forums by the way :D
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I downloaded the guidebooks here for the CX Cas, the getting started for the Nspire is also there. http://education.ti.com/calculators/downloads/US/Guidebooks/Search/Results?cp=6002 Hope this helps
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The interface in those old CAS+ models is indeed quite a bit different from those of newer prototype models, and production models...
Despite its "+" name, the CAS+ model is highly inferior to the regular models. It cannot be upgraded to newer OS versions, as the hardware is different, and no OS version for the CAS+ was ever published by TI, despite our requests, even for the purposes of unbricking CAS+ items whose owners had tried to upgrade them (which erases the OS, and leaves you with an unusable paperweight).
If you were scammed by a reseller into buying a CAS+ (yes, that's what the CAS+ is: a scam), complain about the reseller, and complain to TI :)
(even if so far, they haven't cared about a problem that pleagued up to several hundreds of users since 2006...)
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I think there are guidebooks for the CAS+ somewhere on TI's website, I've stumbled on them once. I don't remember where exactly, but I'll take a look if I can find them again.
I have found the French manuals and dutch manuals for the CAS+. Can't seem to find any English one.
Dutch : http://bwns.be/jim/Getting_Started_with_TI-Nspire_CAS_NL.pdf
French: http://tiplanet.org/forum/archives_voir.php?id=1576 and http://tiplanet.org/forum/archives_voir.php?id=1577
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Unfortunately, as someone who enjoys taking things apart to learn how they work, I am still somewhat interested in the CAS+. Does anyone know if the OS is encrypted (on the NAND Flash)? Has anyone tried to directly dump the OS from it?
If the CAS+ is anything like the released TI-Nspire/TI-Nspire CAS, then the OS is encrypted but the encryption key is present in the second-stage boot loader, which is merely compressed (and we can easily decompress it).
However, I don't think anybody has tried to dump the NAND flash by means of hardware hacking; I didn't know that was even feasible.
Well, I don't own an Nspire CAS(+ or not) yet, so I can't say for sure if it is feasible on an Nspire, but it has worked just fine for me on many other NAND Flash chips. ;D
Give me a few minutes and I'll find a simple tutorial.
This guy used an xD card reader. Simple ('cause xD cards are raw NAND in an expensive package) but it works pretty well. xD cards are pretty useful because you can use them to make a second, removable NAND. (Warning: Because the card reader contains the NAND controller chip, not all card readers work.)
http://busydizzys.com/index.php/2010/12/24/reading-embedded-flash-chips-nand-tsop-without-removal (http://busydizzys.com/index.php/2010/12/24/reading-embedded-flash-chips-nand-tsop-without-removal)
Soldering this stuff is somewhat difficult. A microscope, steady hand, and hot glue really help.
Jimbauwens has finally soldered everything for the dumping of a TI-Nspire CAS+ NAND with an xD reader.
But it was very hard: he even had to use a microscope!!!
(http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image.php?mode=medium&album_id=77&image_id=787)
But unfortunately, it didn't work.
With both Linux and Windows, the reader just thinks no card is inserted.
So:
- either some connections are wrong
- either an additional trick is necessary to make the reader think an xD card is inserted
- either some other chips are interfering and the NAND chip has to be removed from the PCB
- either Jim's generic xD card has to be replaced by a high quality raw xD reader like the ones from Olympus and Fujifilm
If some of you can help - because we won't find many other people being able to solder something like that.
Bigger photo available here:
http://tiplanet.org/forum/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=77&image_id=787
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I think the problem is the Nspire, but I'm not sure.
I will try with another xD reader, and if that doesn't work I will need to de-solder the chip.
Not giving up yet :)