Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: JamesNewman on May 02, 2013, 03:22:49 pm
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Hi,
I'm looking to get a calculator soon. I'm a teenager, who wants to have the option of games and programmes, but needs a calculator for A-Level Maths (UK). I was going to get the TI Nspire CX CAS but, then, the HP Prism which, also, has CAS was announced. Should I wait for the HP? Which one will have a better programming community? Thanks.
James
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It's a Casio Prism, not HP.
If you're talking about the HP Prime, it is not released yet.
Anyways, for school, I suggest a TI-89, really. It's allowed on more exams in the states than the rest (none of them are allowed on the ACT), and it has the best CAS.
For programming, I suggest the TI Nspire CX CAS because it has a lot of the community back up, which means you can get more games/get more programming help.
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Well, the TI-89 is a good choice too, but it does not feature a color screen.
Personally the 89 is my favorite calculator(I'm not such a many-pixels-guy), but I think the Nspire CX CAS is a very good choice too. ;)
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I meant the HP Prime. I know it's not released but do you think it will be better than the TI NSpire CX? I mean what's programming usually like on HP calculators? For example, the screenshots of the Prime's software don't look that good.
So, the TI 89 is better for school? What about other calculators (not TI)? Thanks.
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I don't know much about non-TI-calcs. The TI-89 really is the best for school, but it is not allowed on the ACT. You need a TI-84+ for that (best calc allowed on the ACT)
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Anyways, for school, I suggest a TI-89, really. It's allowed on more exams in the states than the rest (none of them are allowed on the ACT), and it has the best CAS.
For programming, I suggest the TI Nspire CX CAS because it has a lot of the community back up, which means you can get more games/get more programming help.
The Nspire series' CAS is slightly better than the TI-68k series' CAS. Some bugs and limitations have been fixed, many bugs were added in the latest versions of the Nspire OS.
Programmability of the TI-68k series remains better (and will certainly always remain so), but few people produce new things on the TI-68k series.
It will take years for the HP Prime user and programmer community to become close to the TI community - assuming that event ever occurs.
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Anyways, for school, I suggest a TI-89, really. It's allowed on more exams in the states than the rest (none of them are allowed on the ACT), and it has the best CAS.
For programming, I suggest the TI Nspire CX CAS because it has a lot of the community back up, which means you can get more games/get more programming help.
The Nspire series' CAS is slightly better than the TI-68k series' CAS. Some bugs and limitations have been fixed, many bugs were added in the latest versions of the Nspire OS.
Programmability of the TI-68k series remains better (and will certainly always remain so), but few people produce new things on the TI-68k series.
It will take years for the HP Prime user and programmer community to become close to the TI community - assuming that event ever occurs.
Where does the Nspire CX CAS have better CAS than the 89? I'd honestly like to know this.
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Thanks for the answers.
I might get the Nspire for the programming. Are there any Windows/Online Nspire CX emulators? I've found ones for older calculators but not the Nspire CX.
And, what is the Nspire CX Premium? When do you think it will be released? I don't want to spend a lot on a calculator that will be outdated soon.
Thanks again.
James
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@pimathbrainiac:
Where does the Nspire CX CAS have better CAS than the 89?
* I once entered several inputs from the third-party list of known bugs / limitations of the TI-68k / AMS series, and the Nspire's CAS produced a correct answer for some of them. But then, from OS 3.0.1.1753 onwards (i.e. since two years ago), the Nspire's OS barfs on quite a number of inputs that neither the TI-68k series, nor earlier Nspire OS versions, choke on...
* the Nspire has several built-in functions that the TI-68k doesn't have out of the box, for instance some stats functions inherited from the TI-Z80 series.
* the Nspire's CAS can operate on numbers slightly larger than the TI-68k's CAS in some circumstances, as shown by different reactions to arguments for e.g. the factorial and power functions. Not that it matters in practice, as shown by how little-known this fact is.
The open TI-68k series' CAS can be expanded through C/ASM, which is not possible in a meaningful way for the closed Nspire series. http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/437/43727.html is useless in practice due to insufficient platform documentation (and I get to criticize it as much as I want because I'm the author ^^).
@JamesNewman:
Are there any Windows/Online Nspire CX emulators? I've found ones for older calculators but not the Nspire CX.
nspire_emu, whose latest version is 0.70, supports the CX :)
And, what is the Nspire CX Premium?
We don't know...
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Hey, you forgot about the TI-84+C SE .
I'm not sure how great it is though...
There should be some kind of Nspire emulators around, but I'm not the person to ask though(Rather my brother Jim).
And also about the Nspire Premium I know way too little.
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Where does the Nspire CX CAS have better CAS than the 89? I'd honestly like to know this.
I do not have benchmarks nor a lot of tests, but if feels better, especially on the speed of computation/solving.
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Thanks for the amazing answers!
So, it would be a good decision to buy the TI Nspire CX CAS if you're thinking of keeping the calculator for a while? Is it 'future-proof'? I don't have the problem of exam restrictions as we only use the calculators in class- exams are non-calculator or calculators are given to you. So, the calculator would be used at home, mostly.
One more question: can you add notes/formulas on the TI Nspire? This is so I save time- I don't need to search through my textbook. If you can add notes, can you search them? Search the title or a keyword? Thanks.
James
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can you add notes/formulas on the TI Nspire?
Yes.
can you search your notes?
No.
On the other hand, you can use Lua to make such a program to search through your program notes.
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Hey, you forgot about the TI-84+C SE .
I'm not sure how great it is though...
I think he was asking for CAS calcs :P
Also, the 84+CSE is new so there is nothing on it yet (except DJ_O's game that I can't beat :P)
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Where does the Nspire CX CAS have better CAS than the 89? I'd honestly like to know this.
It's also important to note that the CAS software on the Nspire evolved from the CAS on 68k systems.
Regarding the HP Prime vs the TI-Nspire CAS, the Nspire has a lot more backing of teachers and there is an incredible amount of activities you can download.
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So, the TI Nspire is still relevant? Is it 'future-proof'? I mean, will it last for the next 3 years? That's how long I'm planning to use it for. I don't want to spend this much on a calculator and it become outdated in a few months. Thanks.
James
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See my post here : http://ourl.ca/18820/347194
You should avoid double posting.
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Sorry about double posting. There didn't seem to be anyone online on that thread.
But, thanks very much for the answer. I'll be getting the TI Nspire next week...
James
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The only concern I have is that once the novelty of the Prime will wear out, very few people will continue coding games for it anymore (kinda like with the Nspire). However, if it ever becomes popular in school, if it's not as locked down as the Nspire it might stand a greater chance. History with the Casio PRIZM (which isn't locked down) tells me that it will be hard for the HP Prime to compete, though, even moreso with a CAS in United States.
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What do you mean by 'kinda like with the Nspire'? I thought the Nspire development community was popular and active. So, you think in a year or so, no-one will code for the Nspire CX CAS?
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I thought the Nspire development community was large
The Nspire development community has always been small (a dwarf compared to the TI-Z80 community even nowadays, and the former TI-68k community, which died in 2006-2007), due to the closed nature of the platform, and TI actively fighting programming on their calculators:
* BASIC without proper I/O instructions (and the first OS version didn't even have any kind of BASIC programming in the first place !!);
* a special form of Lua, significantly two-way incompatible with standard Lua (no file I/O, etc.), which was released only four years after the introduction of the platform on the marketplace;
* of course, closing the arbitrary code execution holes that third parties have been exploiting to run native code.
People will keep coding for the CX CAS, but not much.
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The Nspire is extremely popular in school for educational purposes, but since 2011, its programming purpose declined in popularity (partly due to TI locking down the platform everytime but probably also because some people find it less entertaining to hack than a 6-15 MHz calculator with 24 KB of RAM and others don't see the need to make new games for it when we can just download thousands of NES/GBC/GBA games for it). Back in Early 2010 until Early 2011, Nspire development was on-par with Z80 development in popularity. Nowadays, there are many tools coming out to hack the calc or run third party OSes, but almost no more new games. Of course I'm not blaming emulators, but now the Nspire quality standard for an RPG, for example, is Breath of Fire and Golden Sun, and I seriously doubt that anyone programming for calcs is dedicated enough to attempt to top that. (Although if he did, he could do much more, since he wouldn't be slowed down by emulation).
So if, for example, you decided to make Nspire games, you would be sure to get a lot of downloads on large sites, but you would be among the few who actually release games. The same thing is happening with 68K calcs since the past 5 years, but the two reasons why the 68K programming community died are completely different than the Nspire.
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What do you mean by 'kinda like with the Nspire'? I thought the Nspire development community was popular and active. So, you think in a year or so, no-one will code for the Nspire CX CAS?
It is not popular. It is a lot less popular than the Prizm community. But it is a lot more active than the Prizm community. That sounds like a paradox but yeah, more programs come out for the Nspire than for the Prizm (at least how I counted them). Maybe because the Nspire can run more things due to its power.
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Oh. Thank you for clearing that up. I still think getting the Nspire is the best option.
Also, thank you to everyone for putting up with me and answering my endless questions.
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Actually PRIZM dev almost completely died a while ago, but it seems to have been revived lately. I think the problem is that it never really took off on Omnimaga and Planète-Casio (in the latter case, everyone are still doing FX-9860G BASIC and C), so only Cemetech really remained involved. Casio and HP's issue, though, is that they always lived under the shadow of TI and never came close to compete in most markets (even though their calcs aren't necessarily that bad and sometimes are even better and less expensive).
The major danger for any calculator is that most calc programmers will choose (and stick with) BASIC programming, because they found it easier, especially due to the built-in tools allowing them to program it on-calc. Just see how many BASIC programs there are on ticalc compared to ASM/C/Lua ones. If a calculator in particular lacks a decent BASIC language for games (which the Nspire and to a lesser extent the PRIZM lacks), then you already lose over 50% of your programming fanbase. It doesn't matter if the BASIC language is as slow as the TI-82, 83+ or 86, as long as it isn't brutal like PRIZM drawing commands. Many people will still find it entertaining to code.
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Just to be clear, the Nspire development is not at all like the z80 or 68k. The Nspires, because of TI locking them down from native programming, are completely oriented towards math/science programmability (it was quite bad at first with no input, indeed, but it's gotten better little by little). I believe the number of educational activities (documents, "programs") available for the Nspire is extremely far beyond any other platform, and it has every reason to be so, the platform being well suited for this use.
By restricting the possibilities of built-in on-calc programming to TI-Basic, TI knowingly made it clear that it was made for and designed for math&science things. And for that, this platform is probably the best among any other calc.
For gaming/hacking/etc. well, it has to be through unofficial things, so obviously it's less easy than having an official way with an SDK, etc. That simply explains the difference of popularity for native programming projects.
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(it was quite bad at first with no input, indeed, but it's gotten better little by little)
It still cannot draw pixels to the screen or get direct input from the keyboard (getKey()), which pretty much any programmable calculator can do, even the TI-81 from more than 20 years ago and various even older models from other manufacturers. The older HP-41C, which both you and me know well enough, doesn't have a graphical screen, but it has getKey(), the keyboard is remappable, and programming it at a lower level than BASIC is possible.
As you're aware, getKey(), drawing pixels to the screen or outputting data to the RS232 port (which TI shortly gave as an implementation side effect of a Lua function, but quickly took away...) would be useful even for teaching.
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One thing I dislike about both the 68K and Nspire input command is how a big window/alert appears,prompting for the answer. This can be problematic for game development because it disrupts the layout. In my TI-81 game Illusiat 81, I display the map, followed by instructions, where you choose an option. Sadly, on 68K/Nspire calcs, instead of being like a command console, it hides most of the game graphics, disrupting design.
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(it was quite bad at first with no input, indeed, but it's gotten better little by little)
It still cannot draw pixels to the screen or get direct input from the keyboard (getKey()), which pretty much any programmable calculator can do, even the TI-81 from more than 20 years ago and various even older models from other manufacturers. The older HP-41C, which both you and me know well enough, doesn't have a graphical screen, but it has getKey(), the keyboard is remappable, and programming it at a lower level than BASIC is possible.
As you're aware, getKey(), drawing pixels to the screen or outputting data to the RS232 port (which TI shortly gave as an implementation side effect of a Lua function, but quickly took away...) would be useful even for teaching.
I couldn't agree more, obviously, there still are some incomprehensible lacks.
Btw, we've asked for print() back, so, we'll see...
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By the way any clue why almost every Lua game only use shapes instead of 16x16 sprites? Is it because people just don't want to spend time making artwork or is it just because they're too slow in game/hard to implement? ???
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Not sure what you mean by shapes ?
Like hand-drawn lines/fills ?
If that's what you're talking about, then yes, it's way faster and lighter in memory than using sprites. (TI's lua image is very bad....).
But some games do use images and are still efficient.
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Yeah i meant squares and such thing.
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I don't know much about non-TI-calcs. The TI-89 really is the best for school, but it is not allowed on the ACT. You need a TI-84+ for that (best calc allowed on the ACT)
Wrong, the Non-cas CX is the best calc for the ACT.
I recommend a CX Cas.
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Then you miss out on the larger library of original games and audience. :P
Personally I don't mind the CX for math, but its interface is harder to get used to than a regular calc and it's totally locked down (for example, if Ndless 3.2 ever comes out, TI will immediately release a new OS that blocks it).
And yeah the CX Cas is banned from the ACT and some other american tests.
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By now, for developing Ndless on a new OS version, it probably makes more sense to wait for the next OS version.
Granted, we've been awaiting for TI to fix up their bugs for more than a year... but past patterns tell us that they're likely to release a new OS version some time before, or during, the next school year.
By providing a relatively easy way to switch between OS 3.1 and 3.2, the TI-Planet fork of nLaunch, and later the fork of nLaunch CX, have reduced the incentive for making versions of Ndless tailored to the OS 3.2.x versions. nLaunch provides groundwork for making Ndless on any OS version without having to find new vulnerabilities in the OS... as long as a given calculator keeps a vulnerable boot2 versions. In the mid-term and long-term, a majority of calculators will get upgraded, and few users will use the RS232 port to downgrade the boot2... but then, the majority of users which cannot access the power and goodies (assuming no other exploit is found in the meantime) provided native code by will strongly hate TI, and their resent will help fuel new powerful attacks against TI's business model.
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Indeed, I think it would make very little sense to focus so much energy for a release for OS 3.2 only to see it blocked the day after. Of course, if they ever figure out how to permanently block downgrading below OS 3.2 in newer OSes, then a 3.2 release might be in order.
Maybe they'll stop or slack down if the Prime is ever successfull. I know over here the 83+/84+/89T are very successful in school, but that Staples has pulled the Nspire CX from their stores.
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Maybe they'll stop or slack down if the Prime is ever successfull.
The Prime isn't less locked down, AFAWCT :(
And it seems that TI has started shipping a new "3.2.4.1237" version, with (seemingly, although we've seen a single report so far, and we haven't been able to get our hands on the OS yet) a highly unwelcome gift: http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12304
I'm not making front page news until we can confirm this.
[EDIT: it's confirmed: anti-downgrade protection enforced by a new boot2 version, which is probably not vulnerable to the nLaunch exploit.]
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There is one positive thing about the Prime, though: At least it has a decent BASIC language built-in, and appears to have an on-calc editor. If the OS isn't as buggy as the 39gII and that the language uses the same interpreter, then ASM will not even be needed for most 2D games. The problems will come for people who want to go further, such as porting DOOM.
I personally just stick to my TI-84+, TI-84+CSE and Casio PRIZM for development from now on (although I am really only developing for the CSE now), and even for general use I prefer these 3 calcs. Of course for school the Nspire is a great tool, but don't count on it to run your favorite games, since it might be locked from the start.
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Sorry to post a year later but, in the end, I didn't buy the calculator. I didn't have enough money to get it and, besides, the topics I was studying didn't require a graphing calculator. But, now, I've started a more complex course.
So, since the HP Prime has officially arrived and some changes have happened, is everyone's view on the Nspire vs Prime the same? Especially, since I'm in the UK, so teacher support is not a major factor here unlike in the US...
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If you plan to buy the calculator both for class and hobbyism programming, then you should probably get the HP Prime, else the TI-Nspire might be better. Of course it also depends if you like touchscreens better than touchpads, though. The HP Prime is also faster, but less stable (for now).