Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: qazz42 on July 27, 2010, 12:49:02 pm
-
This group is starting to gain some notoriety around Omnimaga, I figure we should have a topic on them
http://groups.google.com/group/tinspire
Frankly, I am quite scared how these people are gaining popularity, they are trashing the TI community, praising the TI's censorship of asm and praising the useless features of the nspire.
Discuss how you feel about them
-
I think we should just ignore them. They're mainly teachers, who just want to [absurd idea]use these calcs for math.[/absurd idea] Naturally, since they're teachers, they don't want students playing games in class. Also, school districts wouldn't want to find out one day that all those expensive handhelds they purchased are now banned from standardized tests.
-
From what I read they sound like they don't like programming at all. Also, since the DMCA has allowed jailbreaking of the iphone, I am thinking that cracking the Nspire key would not be illegal. For more information about the RSA key, please read this topic. (http://ourl.ca/6418) Basically, if Omnimga were to be the site that were to crack the RSA keys, that would be awesome.
As for the google group, I'm sure TI would agree with them. There's nothing we can do though. I saw Lionel over on the forums trying to correct some of the misconceptions.
I have a question though, for the entire community. If we were to here TI's reason behind not wanting the keys to be factored, would we change our minds? Personally, I think that I wouldn't, but that's just me. (Simply because I don't think that they would give us more programming capabilities, and they blocked downgrading specifically for Ndless)
-
Although I would love to see it happen, I can understand why TI does not want us to crack the RSA key because that would allow us to use the CAS OS on the regular Nspire.
I can not understand why ASM/C programming is blocked. TI used to support the use of ASM programs (and still support games for Z80 calcs on their website) and I cannot see why they want to start blocking it now on the Nspire.
-
I honestly don't care about them. If they want to believe that the Nspire is an incredible math tool, and that TI is a great company that is set on providing the best quality graphing calculators at an affordable price let them. The have obviously made up their minds; not only about how great the hardware and software is, but also about how having more programming and functionality would be a bad thing and make the calculators less valuable.
-
Those people all have the misconception that TI calculators make students more intelligent, which is frankly not true. IMO a calculator is a tool to assist its user with otherwise tedious/impossible calculations, and should have as many features as possible.
Since they make us so angry, let us just ignore them.
-
Hmm, a problem previously stated is that they are trying to give the TI community a bad rap.....
Also, Asm and C should be alllowed, it is what makes the calculator good, though I do have to agree that if RunOS comes out, nspire-CAS sales might go down, so if RunOS does not come out TI should not have a problem
-
Well, your average user buys a calculator first, and then discovers the community, so they would buy a CAS and then feel angry that RunOS exists.
Of course third-party code should be allowed! I remember the days when TI actually supported its community.
-
since they're teachers, they don't want students playing games in class.
That said, not every teacher is against calc game dev, though. While Critor and Mic would not appreciate that their students play games instead of doing their school work, taking notes and listening in class, they are not against calc games in any way.
-
I find it amusing that Nelson Sousa is so adamantly against calculator gaming when he created one (http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/418/41832.html).
It looks to be very simple, yes, and yes it's written in Basic, but even so- it's still a game.
If I were a member of that group, I would definitely mention it the next time there was an argument.
-
He's against playing it, not making it, I'm going to guess. And ASM games are much more addicting. It would be funny if you were on ticalc and you came across a game made by your teacher and then you played it during his class and your calc got confiscated during the middle of the game. XD
-
Just a troll, me guess...
I swear I saw comments from him years ago in ticalc.org comment boards, HP forums or maybe 68k boards. I think I heard about him in the Casio community too, but I,m not sure.
-
I agree with what's been said so far.
I think its funny that they think all we use the calcs for is games. have they not seen the 9000 quadratic solvers on ticalc?
One of them also mentioned that TI Cares is helpful. There is a thread or two around here which proves the exact opposite.
-
Lol according to TiCalc, about 99% of what the world does with their calculators is solve quadratic equations (or spends time writing programs to do it for them) Games? What games?
* Builderboy hides *
-
And what most of the regular users play is Block Dude, or one of the other puzzpack games, which comes with the calculator anyway. (At least, this is the case at my school)
-
TI-CARES sucks, they didnt explain why I can not downgrade to 1.6 ;.;
-
Well, now they cant't brag about downgrade protections :)
-
lol, that is right, I wonder if the nspire group knows about nleash
-
They might, since I think some people there lurk on TI-BANK regulary.
I wonder if Nleash will be released on ticalc.org? I checked their archives and still nothing. There are 3 files in the pending queue, though.
-
They do, I mean, look at nelson suosla, he is part of the group, but affiliates with the TI community (very little though :P)
-
Apparently, there's a nspire document hq mentioned quite frequently in discussions.
lafacroft.com (http://lafacroft.com)
It contains ndless. :P
Also, it has a link to hackspire XD
-
Lol, the are giving a link to the thing they bash, nice
-
Lafacroft was always aimed more toward maths, though. They did not post much about Ndless, so maybe the TI-Nspire group users didn't notice Ndless was there or since it's not promoted as much, they might have decided to continue linking to it anyway.
-
lookie, lookie, who caught a wiff of nleash :D
http://groups.google.com/group/tinspire/browse_thread/thread/439c9d716f761ce4
I say we wait for it to turn into a whole nleash bashing thing >:)
-
Sorry I don't think we need two topic to discuss Nspire google group (un)successful trolls, so I am merging this one with the other topic http://ourl.ca/6472/105814#new
EDIT: Duplicate topic merging done.
EDIT 2: actually from most of the posts, only TI-BANK users posted so far, positively about Nleash.
-
Indeed, so far, no closed-minded troll has manifested himself against Nleash.
-
Indeed, so far, no closed-minded troll has manifested himself against Nleash.
Maybe they are so angry, that they cannot find the words...
-
I think that some of them are smart enough not to trigger a flamewar when replying to fact-based posts such as AdRiWeB's post and your post. They may have understood who they're dealing with: determined opponents to their views.
It seems that in the past, flamewars have driven some persons off the group and weakened it, and they don't want to see this again.
I liked the reply from Steve Phelps:
I wonder how these downgrade protections will be viewed now in light of the recent rulings that say it is now ok to jailbreak your cell phone. I mean, what is the difference?
-
hmmm, I dont think there is anything wrong with removing a protection
-
Especially that the TI-82 and 85 were jailbreaked around 1994, which is 16 years ago. If it was such a bad thing, then why did TI waited 13 years before locking down their machines? Why didn't they try adding more protections to the 89T, v200 and 83/84+? The only protection I can think about is the PTT mode.
-
Ok, bad move tinspire, now they are trying to directly insult calc84, the community. They have no right! We have been around much longer then they have, we have more experience then them in regards to calcs and stuff!
For those of you lost on my accusation, look at the newest posts of "we made it to xkcd' http://groups.google.com/group/tinspire/browse_thread/thread/2978472efdd30e01
the last two pages is when they start getting all @#!*% about us >:(
-
Ok, bad move tinspire, now they are trying to directly insult calc84, the community. They have no right! We have been around much longer then they have, we have more experience then them in regards to them!
For those of you lost on my accusation, look at the newest posts of "we made it to xkcd' http://groups.google.com/group/tinspire/browse_thread/thread/2978472efdd30e01
the last two pages is when they start getting all bitchy about us >:(
Wait... it's getting even worse!
Now that they have understood that we don't only develop games but also educational programs... They're saying that those programs are useless (because everything is allready in the OS), that they often crash, and that they can return wrong answers.
The major problems with third-party mathematical or education programs
are the lack of accuracy, trustworthiness and support. There are many
thrid-party mathematical programs for the TI89 and TI92 hardware that
are published on ticalc.org and other websites by well-known
developers in the third party community. Many of these programs are
not needed because they duplicate built-in OS capabililty, are
inaccurate and vulnerable to random failures, or are mathematically
wrong in their entirety. An experienced mathematician can test these
products and determine which should be trusted and which should be
discarded. Unfortunately, the majority of the people who download
these third party programs are not equipped to make that
determination. As a result, inexperienced users download these
programs and think they are getting mathematically sound answers from
them.
If TI retains control of the development of applications, we can
expect at least some level of trustworthiness and support from TI. If
third party developers of mathematical or educational programs commit
to that same level of accuracy and trustworthiness of their creations
or to support their programs if they are found to be otherwise, then I
say let them have at it. If they not willing to support their
creations properly, then control of the platform should remain with
TI. In my experience, most third-part developers do not commit to the
accuracy and trustworthiness of their programs or to their support if
found to be mathematically wrong in some manner.
http://groups.google.com.au/group/tinspire/t/2978472efdd30e01?hl=en-GB%3Fhl%3Den-GB
So mCAS and AutoCalc for example are very bad programs -> I should stop developping them.
-
Ok, like, what the f*ck? Our math programs are all unstable? where did that peice of s*it come from? They replicate what the OS does? I dont think so, the quad solver app created by ti is worth nothing, the ones I find on ticalc are much better!
An experienced mathematician can test these
products and determine which should be trusted and which should be
discarded. Unfortunately, the majority of the people who download
these third party programs are not equipped to make that
determination. As a result, inexperienced users download these
programs and think they are getting mathematically sound answers from
them.
I am a user sometimes and I find most of the math prgms very stable, useful, accurate, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
hmmm, seems that Nelson (who has some math prgms as you know) isnt very happy with Wade's statement XD
-
Lol, so they think that TI is good at coding perfectly and all of us third party people who are more innovative suck at coding? I wonder how they would explain the fact that we have made faster and more efficient programs and pieces of code then TI has....and then the whole OS 2.53MP fiasco...I'm guessing that some of the people in the group have no idea what they are talking about and are talking from a non-coding perspective...
-
Hmm, Didnt BrandonW (one of us) patch MP?
-
yeah. Brandonw did.
-
BrandonW and I have both recently patched problems that TI has had since their first OS. Brandon fixed the If glitch and I just fixed the ERR:VERSION with groups.
If TI is so accurate, why didn't they fix these simple problems after 50+ revisions.
-
Great, now that the conversation isnt going their way, they bail, typical troll behavior
-
Exactly. It also seems they are trying to squash our creativity. Who cares if we make games? As long as we don't play them in class, there shouldn't be a problem. At least we're being creative and making the games, instead of just sitting down at an xbox or ps3 and playing them.
-
Here is what wade sent me as an excuse for his bashing of math programmers!
Alec,
I can only point you to the most widely used set of mathematical programs
for the TI89 and 92, MathTools. As only one example, check out the Riemann
zeta function described on page 32 of the documentation of version 2.4.3 .
Note the MathTools v. 2.4.3 documented for zeta(1-i) and compare to the
correct value from Maple or Mathematica. This may have been fixed in
subsequent versions, but I stopped using it when I discovered so many
errors. If you fix zeta, I'll have many other from number theory and linear
algebra that are also wrong. That is my experience with the mathematical
tools that are published. Much has been published without being reviewed or
refereed by competent mathematicians and much of it is just plain
mathematically wrong. I have an edited copy of the documentation of v2.4.3
in which I have struck out function that are directly wrong or that use
another function that is directly wrong. More text is struck out than is
left in its original.
Wayne
He is either
1. Being a bigot and overly general
2. Trying to trol
I dont know much about 68K so, someone tell me the liability of this (if there is any)
-
TI's math software has bugs, too: http://www.ibiblio.org/technicalc/buglist/bugs.pdf
Is Wayne even a programmer? If he is, then he should know that bugs exist, and are constantly being fixed.
Often, functions are generally correct, with errors only in uncommon special cases.
He's also making unfair judgments and generalizations. MathTools' site clearly states that it is in development. A program of that magnitude is very hard to write, and the fact that it exists is a testament to the community's brilliancy.
Wayne also seems to assume that commercial software is bug-free, which is clearly FALSE.
-
anybody told him about those?
-
Well, I got kicked from the group.... so, someone else do it
-
What? So now they're forcibly ejecting anyone who doesn't agree with them?
-
bwang, if I recall I remember reading that they deleted accounts of people who said negative things about the Nspire (before it was hacked). I could be wrong, but for some reason I remember seeing this.
-
Terrible. I wonder if the founders of that group conspire with TI's PR group.
-
I was kicked because of the "Wade made fun of Nelson's math prgms" Idea....
EDIT: I laughed at this
-TJ
View profile
More options Aug 3, 9:51 pm
This is why I told Rex to close the thread a while ago.
Well if the moderator doesn't do anything, then I will.
I will declare this thread/discussion closed.
.
.
.
||||||||||CLOSED||||||||||CLOSED||||||||||CLOSED||||||||||
.
.
[[ THIS THREAD IS OFFICIALLY CLOSED! ]]
FURTHER CONTINUING THIS THREAD IS NOT PERMITTED!
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS OR ANY OTHER MESSAGE IN THIS DISCUSSION.
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO CONTINUE ARGUING, DO SO *PRIVATELY*!
[DO NOT COMMENT ON MY USE OF CAPITAL LETTERS EITHER!
-
Ah, so "Alec" was you...
I've been discussing privately with Wayne as well. I pointed him to the list of bugs in TI's software as well. The only claim of wrong results that he made, to both qazz42 and me, is invalid: MathTools' zeta(1-i) gives the same result (rounded at nine digits after the comma) as Wolfram Alpha backed by Mathematica (Alpha used by Levak on TI-Bank, Mathtools by myself). The documentation is incorrect, but the program works. I pointed him to TIEmu and TIFS (should he decide not to trust the third-party emulator, he can always use the wimpy emulator built in TIFS).
Don't be hard on him (especially, don't attack him for his example of bug being incorrect - I already wrote him the output of the program on the calculator, though without any comment on the validity of it, since I didn't think of checking with Wolfram Alpha _before_ sending the mail), we'll see whether he releases his list of so-called bugs.
> I can give you many other examples.
Yes, please do. It will help third-party programs to become better, and it will make you known, in the larger community, as someone who, after complaining, proceeds to help improving programs ;)
Needless to say, I'd post the list publicly if you sent me it, so that we can, hopefully, collectively tackle it.
-
hmm, interesting, (unfortunetly I dont know what prgm your talking about :D )
Still, just taking one example of a develpoer's fail, does not mean all 3rd party programs are total shit, in fact, most of them are better than the stuff TI comes with
Hmm
1 big app that does inaccurate quadratics (made by ti)?
or
2 Little program that does quadratics fine, but no extra graphics?
-
since they're teachers, they don't want students playing games in class.
That said, not every teacher is against calc game dev, though. While Critor and Mic would not appreciate that their students play games instead of doing their school work, taking notes and listening in class, they are not against calc games in any way.
<late>I know one math teacher who did much to support calculator games, Dan E one of the coders for Block Dude and MOS is now a math teacher, imagine that.</late>
-
since they're teachers, they don't want students playing games in class.
That said, not every teacher is against calc game dev, though. While Critor and Mic would not appreciate that their students play games instead of doing their school work, taking notes and listening in class, they are not against calc games in any way.
<late>I know one math teacher who did much to support calculator games, Dan E one of the coders for Block Dude and MOS is now a math teacher, imagine that.</late>
No way, really? ;D
That's pretty cool. :)
> I can give you many other examples.
Yes, please do. It will help third-party programs to become better, and it will make you known, in the larger community, as someone who, after complaining, proceeds to help improving programs ;)
Needless to say, I'd post the list publicly if you sent me it, so that we can, hopefully, collectively tackle it.
Did you send this to him? I'd like for the community to get the list so people can fix the problems. :)
-
Yes, I quoted what I sent to him.
-
Wow Qazz they kicked you out of the group? I guess they sure want to brainwash people there in thinking 3rd party dev suck x.x
since they're teachers, they don't want students playing games in class.
That said, not every teacher is against calc game dev, though. While Critor and Mic would not appreciate that their students play games instead of doing their school work, taking notes and listening in class, they are not against calc games in any way.
<late>I know one math teacher who did much to support calculator games, Dan E one of the coders for Block Dude and MOS is now a math teacher, imagine that.</late>
Yeah I remember him a lot ^^
-
I don't think that they really want to brainwash people there, otherwise multiple other persons would have been kicked.
I think that the tone of one of qazz's posts (the one where he replied to Wayne Pace's overbroad generalization) probably wasn't what they're expecting on the group, and that they decided to kick him out after that.
-
lol someone should go over there and announce a fake ti-nspire asm contest winner gets $100 (jk jk)
-
lol that would be epic
-
I don't understand how they think third party software is worse than TI's coding. OS 2.53 is very buggy.
-
Agreed. Open spurce software is less buggy because more people have the opportunity to catch it and fix it.
-
Also, some of the members of the community are probably as good at coding as the people at TI.
-
Or better.
-
Brandon is better, he patched an OS :O
-
He's actually who I was thinking of, but there are others besides him who are better than TI's programmers.
-
Yeah, I was giving only an example ;D
-
I know. this is why I think the OT calcs will be better than TI's.
-
I don't understand how they think third party software is worse than TI's coding. OS 2.53 is very buggy.
Apparently 2.54 MP can cause crashes without any ASM stuff, but I forgot what. DrDnar was the one who managed to recreate weird errors on his Nspire with OS 2.54MP.
-
I cant remember either... I think assigning variables had to do with it