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Calculator Community => Other Calculators => Topic started by: critor on November 15, 2010, 07:06:24 pm

Title: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 15, 2010, 07:06:24 pm: The TI-82Stats.fr and TI-76.fr are 2 cheap graphic calculators available in France.

They include a 256Kb TI-83 compatible OS translated in french.
(TI-Connect detects them as TI-83 calculators - TI-83 assembly programs are working on them - and the dumped ROMs can be used with any TI-83 emulator)

But those calculators become quite interesting when you look at the PCB:
TI-76.fr: http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-76FR_PCB.jpg
TI-82Stats.fr: http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-82STATS_FR_P0509G_PCB.jpg

1st big surprise, unlike TI-83 calculators they don't have a 256Kb EPROM, but a 512Kb FlashROM.
The FlashROM is either a Spansion S29AL004D70 either a MX29LV400, which are both pin compatible and used in recent TI-73 and TI-83+ calculators.

2nd big surprise, the CPU/ASIC is a TI-REF TI-738X, which is also used in recent TI-73 and TI-83+ calculators.

So, the TI-76.fr and TI-82Stats.fr PCB are very similar to recent TI-73 or TI-83+ PCB:
TI-73: http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-73_P0803G_PCB.jpg
TI-83+: http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-83PlusFR_PCB.jpg

So, my goal is to develop a simple way to flash a TI-83+ or TI-73 OS in those calculators.
I'm posting my discoveries, hoping that you will be able to help me.

I've checked the connections between the FlashROM and the ASIC chips on the TI-76.fr and TI-82Stats.fr. Here is what I have up to now:

Legend:
In black, pins not connected to the PCB circuit.
In white,grounded pins.
Connected pins are in the same color.

(http://i63.servimg.com/u/f63/13/23/13/53/82stat12.jpg)(http://i63.servimg.com/u/f63/13/23/13/53/82stat10.gif)

As FloppusMaximus had noticed, the flash-write pin WE# is connected to the ASIC.
So from the hardware side, the ROM can be flashed.

The highest flash address pin, A17, is grounded. So you cannot accesss the full 512Kb bytes, but only the 1st 256Kb bytes.

Checking in a recent TI-83+, I could find the matching A17 pin on the ASIC.
You just have to:
- disconnect A17 flash pin from ground
- connect A17 flash pin to A17 ASIC pin

(http://i63.servimg.com/u/f63/13/23/13/53/upgrad10.jpg)

Now, from the hardware-side, the full 512Kb bytes can be accessed.

Unfortunately, I haven't managed to trigger any boot code menu using the ON+DEL key.

To my knowledge, the 256Kb dump file is a standard TI-83 OS. That means:
- no boot code
- no functions to write the flash
- impossible to access more than 256Kb ROM

So, I cannot even dump the hidden 256kb to check for a boot code...

So I'm asking for the help of the best TI-83/83+ programmers/hackers out there.

How could we manage to flash a TI-83+ boot code and then a TI-83+ OS ?

I also have some questions:

- How is it possible for the same ASIC to be able to run both TI-83 and TI-83+ OSes ?
I thought that many ports were behaving differently on those calculators...
How are the ports behaviors set up ?

- How is it possible for the same ASIC to be able to boot with or without a boot code?
TI-83+ calculators have a boot code in the last 16Kb sector of the ROM...
To my knowledge, there is no such boot code in the 256Kb TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr dump files, and even if such a boot code was written higher in ROM, it could not be accessed before moding the calculator as explained above.

If we manage to come out with a not to complicated mod, many french students will be very happy.

Please, help me.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: SirCmpwn on November 15, 2010, 07:11:27 pm: If it can run TI-83 or TI-83+ assembly programs, I could probably write a program to flash it.
Spoiler For Spoiler:
Can you email me a ROM so I can find out more about it?
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 15, 2010, 07:29:09 pm: Quote from: SirCmpwn on November 15, 2010, 07:11:27 pm
If it can run TI-83 or TI-83+ assembly programs, I could probably write a program to flash it.
Spoiler For Spoiler:
Can you email me a ROM so I can find out more about it?

I can run all TI-83 assembly programs on the TI-82Stats.fr and TI-76.fr.
Even shells/kernels.

I don't know how the calculator would react to TI-83+ assembly code...

And I don't understand how the same ASIC can execute both TI-83 and TI-83+ assembly codes, as there are some differences...

Or can the TI-738X ASIC be configured in some way during production to work either as a TI-83 either as a TI-83+? Internally or externally through some kind of jumper/flag for example?...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: SirCmpwn on November 15, 2010, 07:30:33 pm: I'll look into cracking it open. Shouldn't be too hard :)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 15, 2010, 07:32:02 pm: On a side note, SirCmpwn, if you plan to write a 83 program nostub, it's Send(9prgmNAME) instead of Asm(prgmNAME), in case you aren't very familiar with that model. Yay for TI undocumented instructions. :P
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: SirCmpwn on November 15, 2010, 07:43:14 pm: I'm aware of that :) Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: BrandonW on November 15, 2010, 09:48:22 pm: This can't work. The ASIC is the CPU's interface to the rest of the hardware, and that one is distinctly 83-ish. There is no way for you to unlock the Flash chip (although I suppose the WE# pin lets you get around that) because there is no port 14h.

Because communication with the Flash chip is done through memory-mapped I/O commands, you MIGHT (and I stress MIGHT) get away with modifying the data in the Flash chip, which means you could modify the 83-ish OS.

But you can never run the 83+ OS, because it relies on an 83+ ASIC and port hardware. With some EXTREME patching to the OS, such a thing might be possible, but it would NEVER run 83+ programs.

Non-Flash calculators don't contain any sort of boot code, they never have to worry about the state of the Flash chip so they simply boot from 0000h.

It's *possible* TI left in some way for you to modify the data in the Flash chip, but there would be no way at all for you to recover from a bad write/erase because there is no boot code to fall back to.

I have both a TI-76.fr and TI-82 Stats.fr, but I'm not sure I want to risk soldering to that pin or erasing sectors of that Flash chip.

If you want to try this, you might want to disassemble the 83+ boot code BCALL _WriteAByte and see how it sends commands to the Flash chip to program a byte, and write an 83 program that does the same and see if it works.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 15, 2010, 10:02:04 pm: I understand Brandon.

But I'm still wondering.

If you look at recent PCB scans on DataMath.org, you'll notice that all four TI-76.fr, TI-82Stats.fr, TI-83+ and TI-73 calculators are using the same ASIC:
TI-REF TI-738X 220C080FG102

(http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-83PlusFR_ASIC.jpg)

So is it really the same chip?
And if it is, then there must have been some way for TI to configure it, internally or externally, in order to operate in TI-83 mode or in TI-73/83+ mode.

What's your advice?
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 15, 2010, 10:11:50 pm: Actually, there is a port 14 on the TI-83 - it's the battery status port. :P

I'd love to know what the deal is with ports 0036, 003F, 00DF, and 00F2 (yes, the usage suggests that these are 16-bit I/O addresses), which were added to the early initialization code of later versions of the TI-83 and TI-82 STATS, as well as the TI-82 v19.006.

Also, I would suggest that, before you start trying to write to the Flash chip, you try something less potentially destructive, like reading the auto-select data. :)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: SirCmpwn on November 16, 2010, 12:21:09 am: I was planning on writing somewhere harmless, and seeing if it worked, first of all. I was also thinking of finding a way to patch/replace the OS. Eventually, a KnightOS port might be possible.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: TIfanx1999 on November 16, 2010, 08:25:31 am: @critor: I'd love to see something come of this. That would be really interesting if you could find a loophole to make this work.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 21, 2010, 05:01:42 pm: I've figured out some more pins of the TI-738X ASIC (used in TI-82Stats.fr, TI-76.fr, recent TI-83+, and recent TI-73).

I don't know if I'll ever come out with something, but I'm posting the pinout as it can be usefull to TI-83+/TI-73 users/hackers too:

(http://i63.servimg.com/u/f63/13/23/13/53/82stat12.gif)

Let's sum up things.

The TI-83+, TI-73, TI-82Stats.fr and TI-76.fr all use the same ASIC.

But on the TI-82Stats.fr and TI-76.fr, the ASIC operates in TI-83 (basic) mode, which lets it run a 256Kb TI-83 OS, although the ROM capacity is 512Kb.

So the main question is: how is it possible for the same ASIC to operate both in TI-83+/TI-73 mode and in TI-83 basic mode, depending upon the model it is used in?

Is the ASIC configured during production through a high voltage or some kind of flashing?

Or, is it configured by the PCB itself, using some kind of jumper by connecting or not connecting its pins?

If you know more than me about ASICs, what do you think it is?
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 21, 2010, 05:15:35 pm: I don't know, but I guess a logical next step would be to compare that picture with the PCB from a newer 83+ or 73.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 21, 2010, 05:21:04 pm: Quote from: FloppusMaximus on November 21, 2010, 05:15:35 pm
I don't know, but I guess a logical next step would be to compare that picture with the PCB from a newer 83+ or 73.

The difficulty, it that most ASIC pin connections are not visible on the recent TI-83+/73.

I suppose they are on the other site of the PCB...

Here is the same ASIC on a recent TI-83+ PCB:
(http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/Images/TI-83PLUS_FR07_BL_ASIC.jpg)
(source: http://www.datamath.org )

Same problem with recent TI-73.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 21, 2010, 05:30:29 pm: Ouch, yeah, that is problematic. The TI-73 Explorer with an 84+-style case (as seen here (http://datamath.org/Graphing/JPEG_TI-73_Explorer_P1108.htm)) doesn't look so bad, though.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: NeoCrisis on November 24, 2010, 10:43:48 am: so somebody would need to take off his calc's PCB??!!
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 24, 2010, 12:11:44 pm: Quote from: rayquaza59 on November 24, 2010, 10:43:48 am
so somebody would need to take off his calc's PCB??!!

There seems to be some grounding difference between the TI-82Stats.fr/76.fr ASIC and the TI-73/83+ ASIC.

And after unsoldering some pins, it seems the difference is inside the ASIC.

I'm going to test with another calculator. I'll post the shematics, if those informations are confirmed.

But if I'm right, then there are 2 possibilities:

* either the ASIC chips are different from the start (which I doubt), although their references are identic...

* either the ASIC is electrically configured during production, in order to operate in basic 83 mode, or in 73/83+ mode
(through some kind of flashing, or by opening/closing some internal jumper by applying a high voltage...)

In both cases, it seems to be bad news for us... unless we can access the top-secret TI-738X ASIC datasheet.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: NeoCrisis on November 24, 2010, 12:24:46 pm: good luck!! ;)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 24, 2010, 11:45:22 pm: Keep in mind that if you do have to modify the hardware to put it into "83+ mode", the regular TI-83 OS may not be able to boot properly in that mode.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on November 25, 2010, 08:55:14 am: Quote from: FloppusMaximus on November 24, 2010, 11:45:22 pm
Keep in mind that if you do have to modify the hardware to put it into "83+ mode", the regular TI-83 OS may not be able to boot properly in that mode.

Yes, I know.
I've allready tested on TilEm by pasting a TI-83 ROM in a TI-73/83+ ROM, and on a true TI-83+ by flashing a TI-83 OS. The TI-83 OSes (including the special 1.11fr7 and 1.00fr5 versions) aren't booting on a TI-83+ hardware.

So even if I modify the hardware, I won't be able to know if it's in 73/83+ mode before flashing a new OS and boot code...

I suppose the best test to be sure that the difference is inside the ASIC would be to replace the TI-82Stats.fr/76.fr ASIC by a TI-73/83+ ASIC.

If it does boot the TI-82Stats.fr/76.fr OS, then the mode is set by the PCB and we "might" be able to do something about that.
If it doesn't boot (and if it is properly soldered...), then the mode is set inside the ASIC, and we need the private datasheets from TI...

By the way, TI-73 OSes need to be patched before installing them on TI-83+ hardware, and TI-83+ OSes need to be patched too before installing them on TI-73 hardware.

Why? Are those patches needed only because of the different boot codes, or is there something different with the ports?

If there is something different with the ports, it may come from the same thing that is making thoses ASICs operate in 83 mode here...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on November 25, 2010, 04:43:21 pm: Quote from: critor on November 25, 2010, 08:55:14 am
TI-83+ OSes need to be patched too before installing them on TI-73 hardware.

Why? Are those patches needed only because of the different boot codes, or is there something different with the ports?
You mean Chameleon, right? http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/416/41660.html

Also, from what I remember, when you install a patched 83+ OS on the TI-73, you don't have the 8192 bytes limit of executable ASM code that is present on a real 83+ (8811 in Ion and MirageOs). That allows more possibilities when writing games, but then your game won't run on a real 83+...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: FloppusMaximus on November 25, 2010, 11:38:39 pm: Quote from: critor on November 25, 2010, 08:55:14 am
By the way, TI-73 OSes need to be patched before installing them on TI-83+ hardware, and TI-83+ OSes need to be patched too before installing them on TI-73 hardware.

Why? Are those patches needed only because of the different boot codes, or is there something different with the ports?

If there is something different with the ports, it may come from the same thing that is making thoses ASICs operate in 83 mode here...
Mainly it's the boot code differences. But there are some very minor hardware differences in ports 2 and 16.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: Blagus on July 24, 2011, 09:25:38 am: Hi. Sorry for reviving thread but has anyone been able to do anything?
I got TI-82 Stats.fr, and all I want is English on that calc. Can I flash something, or load some language file?
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: calcdude84se on July 24, 2011, 06:47:18 pm: Hello, Blagus, and welcome to Omnimaga! :D If you haven't yet, you might want to consider introducing yourself. (http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?action=post;board=10.0) (It's not mandatory if you don't want to :P)
Related to the topic at hand, it seems that flashing something would require a hardware modification, if it's even possible. I don't know whether the TI-82 Stats.fr (or the TI-83) has support for other languages, though I'm pretty sure it's a "no."
Be aware that the topic you posted in is 8 months old, and not very many people here have a TI-82 Stats.fr or TI-83, so you might have to wait a bit for someone knowledgeable. :)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 24, 2011, 07:00:14 pm: If I remember the old TI's don't have language apps. So I'm guessing that's a no. :( Welcome to Omnimaga by the way.

Link for comparison: http://www.datamath.org/Graphing/TI-82_SPEC.htm

Since it doesn't have Flash, the OS isn't upgradeable. This also means no language apps. :(
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: calcdude84se on July 24, 2011, 08:45:36 pm: Quote from: critor on November 15, 2010, 07:06:24 pm
1st big surprise, unlike TI-83 calculators they don't have a 256Kb EPROM, but a 512Kb FlashROM.
The FlashROM is either a Spansion S29AL004D70 either a MX29LV400, which are both pin compatible and used in recent TI-73 and TI-83+ calculators.
AoC, the TI-82 Stats.fr does have flash ROM ;)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: TIfanx1999 on July 24, 2011, 09:09:19 pm: Hrm, I guess the comparison chart on data math was wrong then. It didn't show the Ti-82 stats.fr having flash rom. D:

*Edit*

In that case I'm not sure then. From what I could tell it doesn't support apps (does it?), but if the OS is upgradeable there could be an English version(Check TI's french site?). I don't think there is though. Perhaps one of our French users could answer, as I'm not overly familiar with this particular line.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: calcdude84se on July 25, 2011, 11:56:35 am: AoC, as far as TI cares it's a French TI-83 with a 256KiB ROM. They wouldn't help. :P
Being able to flash it is, in fact, the focus of this thread. ;)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: JosJuice on July 25, 2011, 01:27:14 pm: Quote from: calcdude84se on July 25, 2011, 11:56:35 am
AoC, as far as TI cares it's a French TI-83 with a 256KiB ROM. They wouldn't help. :P
TI only cares that it's a French TI-82 STATS. They won't say that it's an 83, and they won't say how much memory it has. :P
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on July 25, 2011, 01:56:17 pm: The TI-82Stats is just a basic TI-83 with the latest 1.10001 ROM.

Both TI-82Stats.fr and TI-76.fr are running a basic TI-83 OS translated into french on a TI-83+ hardware.
So they have 512Kb Flash.

But only the first 256Kb are connected to the ASIC: you need to solder an additional pin.

And even after that, as the ASIC is operating in basic TI-83 mode, we found no way of accessing the additional 256Kb or reprogram the Flash through software.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: calcdude84se on July 25, 2011, 01:57:41 pm: Ah. And there is no way to change the mode the ASIC is operating in, I take it? Too bad...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on July 25, 2011, 02:03:02 pm: I don't know... maybe...

The ASIC has exactly the same reference as the basic TI-83+ ASIC (TI-REF738X).

I don't know how TI makes it operate in 83 mode or 83+ mode.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: Blagus on July 28, 2011, 03:00:47 pm: Hey! Thanks a lot for nice response :) is it possible to take current ROM on this calc and translate that into English?
Also, where do you find all those ASIC info? Datamath, ti-calc? I'd like to investigate it a bit...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on July 29, 2011, 05:29:40 am: You don't need to translate: you can take a TI-83 ROM, which is the same thing as the TI-82Stats.fr ROM but in english.

And the problem is that we have allmost no info on the TI-REF 738X ASIC, and I don't know where we could get more...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: Blagus on July 31, 2011, 03:25:07 pm: Quote from: critor on July 29, 2011, 05:29:40 am
You don't need to translate: you can take a TI-83 ROM, which is the same thing as the TI-82Stats.fr ROM but in english.

And the problem is that we have allmost no info on the TI-REF 738X ASIC, and I don't know where we could get more...
And how do I flash it? Using TI-83+ flashing tools? (Assuming that's so easy.)
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: critor on August 01, 2011, 11:54:56 am: Up to now, there is no known software way of reflashing a TI-82Stats.fr or TI-76.fr.
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: Blagus on September 17, 2011, 06:25:55 am: OK, and I doubt someone has a spare 83+ ASIC? I have access to soldering tools so I could experiment...

Actually, I don't need 83+ functionality so much, all I would like is a normal English OS, but full 83+ would be cool too :D
Direct access to flash chip (avoiding ASIC and hooking it to PC directly) is impossible too? I see you found out the pinouts for Spansion flash we have inside...
Title: Re: Upgrading the TI-82Stats.fr / TI-76.fr
Post by: Blagus on September 17, 2011, 08:38:46 am: Update: I'll get TI-83+ soon, so if you need it for some PCB connections check, any photos, etc., let me know ;)