Omnimaga
Omnimaga => Site Feedback and Questions => Topic started by: Matrefeytontias on November 11, 2014, 04:27:42 pm
-
To all Omnimaga members, regular and staff.
We offer to you the present petition as a terrain of discussion about the diverse problems that have been affecting Omnimaga lately, generally a noticeable faulty behavior from site administrators, and precisely about Eeems, owner of said statute.
After a session of thoughts sharing, we, Hayleia, aeTIos, DJ_Omnimaga, Juju, Keoni29, turiqwalrus, Sorunome, harold, Streetwalrus, matrefeytontias, feel that behavior adjustements are required in order to maintain the previously-ideal atmosphere of the Omnimaga community. We would like to bring to your consideration the following points :
- lately, Eeems has been modifying features of the site that could have bothered the user experience of Omnimaga members, and this without any prior consent from any member, and in this case with the explicit disagreement of a support staff : http://chat.eeems.ca:9003/?server=irc.omnimaga.org%206667&channel=omnimaga&date=Thu%20Nov%2006%202014#1415302519917 (http://chat.eeems.ca:9003/?server=irc.omnimaga.org%206667&channel=omnimaga&date=Thu%20Nov%2006%202014#1415302519917)
- in similar situations, Eeems said having the right to perform such modifications as he is the one paying for the hosting of the site. While we all thank him for this, this fact shouldn't become an excuse for making alone decisions that could affect greatly, and in any way, user experience.
- the co-owner group now only contains Eeems and geekboy, when it used to include way more people like rcfreak0 and Netham45 (the latter holding the full legal rights on the domain, as shown when entering "omnimaga.org" as a domain name here : http://whois.pir.org/ (http://whois.pir.org/)). If it was the result of group reorganization, no Omnimaga user was notified of such action unlike the news item located here says it would happen : http://www.omnimaga.org/news/the-status-of-our-staffing-and-the-changes-that-are-being-made/ (http://www.omnimaga.org/news/the-status-of-our-staffing-and-the-changes-that-are-being-made/)
- despite Omnimaga being meant to be a friendly place of interest sharing, free speech, and overall amusement, we feel that Eeems treats it too much like a professional responsibility, thus harming the enjoyment of members.
- the Omnimaga IRC chat has been made by Netham45 then Sorunome to be a free place of discussion. In our opinion, Eeems has proven irrelevant over-restrictiveness several times. We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.
Overall, we think that Eeems should prove more humble behavior, both towards site members and the site itself. It goes by accepting (and actually requesting) others' opinions and taking into account negative feedback. While we perfectly understand the privileges given by the statute of site administrator, we think it should not be mistaken with the statute of absolute ruler.
We would like to explicitely specify that we don't want Eeems to be demoted, but that if he fails to correct his behavior we will be forced to go in favor of his demotion.
The goal of this petition is to permit all Omnimaga members, regular and staff, to express themselves on the issues presented here. Should you agree with our point of view, please let us know as soon as possible by any way you would like, while giving priority to public means of communications and especially the Omnimaga forums, while keeping in mind your word will be used as pressure power if extreme conditions make it needed. If you don't want your opinion to be revealed, please don't express yourself on this matter.
-
I certify being part of the people mentioned in the beginning. This has been bothering me for quite a while and I know other people than just us faced the same problems.
You're a cool guy Eeems, please don't take the site you manage on your free time too seriously.
-
It seems like people are already misunderstanding.
We are not saying "Fuck Eeems". We are not asking for him to leave. We are asking him to change... or rather, to become again the one he was before he changed, to have Omnimaga stay the friendly place it was at its creation.
-
I certify as well I'm one of the signatories of the above post. But yeah, we all love you Eeems, but sometimes we feel you take this too seriously and like if you're the absolute boss of Omnimaga who takes all the decisions. Yeah of course you work with the government, but this isn't the government at all.
I also understand that this takes a lot of your time, I suggest you appoint a few more people as admins, I mean, people who actually know their way around managing servers, as the site is probably pretty understaffed and crumbling below all the issue requests.
We all want Omnimaga to stay a friendly place and we all strive to make it happen, but yeah, we feel you're not helping sometimes.
-
I plan to make a better rebuttle. But 2 things
1: This Is not a democracy, We have our internal Rules. AND I MAKE SURE THEY ARE FOLLOWED
2: Everything he does he passes through me. He might not post it. We are personal friends we talk a lot on the the phone. we text skype and generally keep in touch on a very regular basis. So you say he does not have permission to do things. He does, Or he would not do them, Thats the respect he has for his fellow staff
-
I plan to make a better rebuttle. But 2 things
1: This Is not a democracy, We have our internal Rules. AND I MAKE SURE THEY ARE FOLLOWED
2: Everything he does he passes through me. He might not post it. We are personal friends we talk a lot on the the phone. we text skype and generally keep in touch on a very regular basis. So you say he does not have permission to do things. He does, Or he would not do them, Thats the respect he has for his fellow staff
While I have to agree with this, Omnimaga is a community. The goal isn't to enforce things that most members dislike because that would actually scare people away and lead to the community's death. We don't want that, right ?
-
I also confirm to be one of the people who signs the above petition. The points that are mentioned in it have been bothering me for quite some time so after discussing the issues with other members who feel the same, I decided to step up and let my voice be heard. I sincerely hope these points will be taken in consideration.
Geekboy: I am not agreeing with your point that this is not a democracy. We built this place, and I think everybody should have a voice. Also, internal rules? You make sure that they are followed? That sounds like a dictatorship.
Final point. If things don't change here, count me out. If I can't have my old place on the web, I will build a new place of my own.
edit fixed typo x.x
-
Geekboy: I am not agreeing with your point that this is not a democracy. We built this place, and I think everybody should have a voice. Also, internal rules? You make sure like they are followed? That sounds like a dictatorship.
Final point. If things don't change here, count me out. If I can't have my old place on the web, I will build a new place of my own.
Exactly. I'll be gone from here too and I won't come back. But I really hope that it doesn't happen.
I'm not overly active here, but what I could notice is that this wouldn't be a place to stay at for a longer time.
Except that I have to disagree with one thing, it's neat that edits are now broadcasted over IRC.
-
1: This Is not a democracy, We have our internal Rules. AND I MAKE SURE THEY ARE FOLLOWED
Democracy is the only system were "citizens" (in this case members) are free to express themselves. You explicitely saying that it's not a democracy means we basically have no freedom of speech. Who would want to voluntarily live in this kind of system ? This absolutely doesn't fit Omnimaga's principles as they are listed here : http://www.omnimaga.org/index.php?page=Rules
2: Everything he does he passes through me. He might not post it. We are personal friends we talk a lot on the the phone. we text skype and generally keep in touch on a very regular basis. So you say he does not have permission to do things. He does, Or he would not do them, Thats the respect he has for his fellow staff
In the eyes of everybody who participated in this petition, you should have long noticed Eeems's actions were bad for Omnimaga.
-
Except that I have to disagree with one thing, it's neat that edits are now broadcasted over IRC.
That's not the point we're making. We're pointing out that Eeems has been doing things on his own even when he gets told people don't agree with him.
-
I agree with points made, so I will go with the petition, but I also like being apart of omnimaga, just that I'm an insignificant user, I don't wanna be apart of any conflict if things go bad with the petition
-
This Is not a democracy, We have our internal Rules. AND I MAKE SURE THEY ARE FOLLOWED
Well yeah I agree to this, but making sure they are followed are only a thing... And yeah of course it's technically not a democracy, the admins are not elected, but it doesn't mean we have no freedom of speech or rules. Admins shouldn't really be above everyone else either, I think.
I think the problem is that you make the members feel you admin guys are doing nothing. You guys should probably be more open and give a few more explanantions on whatever is happening, no secrets, everyone will be happy. The status news are often rather short and made in a haste...
Final point. If things don't change here, count me out. If I can't have my old place on the web, I will build a new place of my own.
People are scared, are drawn away and a schism will eventually happen. Stuff are rather messy and weird here, if nothing changes to their likings people will go somewhere else, Cemetech, TI-Planet, even entierely new sites.
-
Geekboy: I am not agreeing with your point that this is not a democracy. We built this place, and I think everybody should have a voice. Also, internal rules? You make sure like they are followed? That sounds like a dictatorship.
Uhm Internal as The rules for admins and staff. There are rules all of us must follow. IF they are not followed they get reprimanded, I dont take the shit from my team. And I am the one that handles the staff. That is ONE of the MANY things I do here. So yes it is a dictatorship of the rules. We follow them to a T.
And what needs to change other then you all realizing we are doing what we can with the site to make it better. So you may not like a change. But its not your site. You have an issue voice it (hence why this topic is not deleted) But dont expect us to follow everything the members want. It's a community run by the admin team (and owners when they voice it). Not an admin team run by a community.
@Matref. A dictatorship is run by a solid ruler. It does not mean that you can not voice your opinoins. It means its our discretion to act on your thoughts of not. To clarify and point to the rules you so nicely pointed out
Its even bolded
Admins may act on their own discretion at any time.
That what the dictatorship is. We can do as we want. regardless.
Also Some of the stuff Eeems has done I disagree with. I have voiced my opinions to him on it. But it doesnt have to be unanimous for everything. Even I can be outvoted in the decision making process. In the big picture tho. Petty shit aside he had sone just fine for omnimaga, And still plans todo so.
@juju they ask we tell, No one asks except for DJ and he gets all the info I have when he asks. Just no one does. I try to be as verbose with information when i have it as long as i can. People don't ask and the only things I have had the time for are minor Nothing big has changed.
-
Admins may act on their own discretion at any time.
Yeah, true, but yeah common sense still applies. Or should. It should be pointed out, at least.
@juju they ask we tell, No one asks except for DJ and he gets all the info I have when he asks. Just no one does. I try to be as verbose with information when i have it as long as i can. People don't ask and the only things I have had the time for are minor Nothing big has changed.
Might indeed be a problem here.
-
I can't believe what I'm seeing.
Eeems' work has vastly improved omnimaga over the last year. The hiccups that have happened along the way are not harmful to the community, and do not enforce any kind of behavior regarding discussions in the forum. If anything, the primary issue is the lack of a beta-testing channel for new features.
Wouldn't that be a reasonable compromise? Have something along the lines of an SFM theme for new site changes, with a "stable" theme that gets updated a little while after.
Eeems has been the only person actively managing the site's health for a long time now. Arguments about dictatorship vs democracy aren't directly related to this.
By the way, the "explicit disagreement with support staff" were you referring to this suggestion that DJ made, which Eeems said wasn't in the plans?
[20:00:36]< DJ Omnimaga > Actually
[20:00:58]< DJ Omnimaga > Maybe edits could be a different color and limited to 1 notification a minute by the same author?
[20:02:05]< Eeems > DJ: edit's are going to be the same colour, and they are under the same limitations as they are for marking a topic as new when someone edits something
I don't see anything else even closely resembling an argument, and even that was quite mild.
Also:
We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.
That's referring to this, right?
[21:34:23]< Eeems > We talking about anime?
[21:34:39]< Eeems > If so, I'd suggest moving the discussion to #anime (#omnimaga-anime on efnet)
[21:34:40]< jamesguessis > yesh Eeems
A simple suggestion to move to a topic-oriented channel. There were no threats. Having separate chat channels encourages discussion of those topics alongside others. It allows the conversation to continue unhindered by others derailing it with other topics.
Eeems has been the most responsible administrator I've seen on this site. He's levelheaded and dedicated, not to mention his great work on various parts of the forum. Sending this kind of message shows just how little you appreciate him, and I wouldn't blame him for quitting because of it.
I'm willing to bet I'll get tempbanned for this post, just like when I was trying to be the voice of reason when issues came up with sircmpwn. Who's the censoring dictator? The one who quietly works to improve what he sees around him, offering mild suggestions for moderation at best? How about the mods who decide that all changes must be approved? All improvements should be shoved down a bottleneck before even being tested? Any dissenting voice must be obliterated?
You're tearing the community apart over nothing.
-
And what needs to change other then you all realizing we are doing what we can with the site to make it better.
Is it really making the site better if it scares current members away ?
So you may not like a change. But its not your site. You have an issue voice it
There have been many reported issues that were literally ignored. Part of the issue is http://ourl.ca/issue (http://ourl.ca/issue). That thing is in no way a proper issue tracker. This subforum is a much better place to be heard, but you guys are encouraging the use of an unusable feature instead.
(hence why this topic is not deleted)
This sounds like a threat.
But dont expect us to follow everything the members want. It's a community run by the admin team (and owners when they voice it). Not an admin team run by a community.
Again, we know you have the final word, but do you really want to tear the community apart ?
A simple suggestion to move to a topic-oriented channel. There were no threats. Having separate chat channels encourages discussion of those topics alongside others. It allows the conversation to continue unhindered by others derailing it with other topics.
I disagree. Eeems has been effectively enforcing anime discussion to #anime even when it started while the channel was inactive. Same for pony talk. This is not really cool.
-
Okay I think you guys both have points. The admin team is doing the best they can (and as I said, you might be understaffed).
Please don't turn this in a war and all try to understand together what's wrong and eventually come to conclusions. And actually do whatever you say in the conclusions, if applicable.
In a friendly and loving way. It's magic.
Or else I'm outta here... (This thread I mean, at least)
Also I feel the problem is no longer really with Eeems alone.
-
I'm not overly active here, but what I could notice is that this wouldn't be a place to stay at for a longer time.
Same for me. I don't post often anymore, but I noticed that the atmosphere on Omni is changing for the worse. On the other hand it isn't clear for me that Eeems' behaviour is the cause of it, maybe it's a bit too easy to just blame him? It always seemed like he's the one doing most of the work to keep the forum up and doing a good job there, but yeah that's not what the critique was about.
Geekboy: I am not agreeing with your point that this is not a democracy. We built this place, and I think everybody should have a voice. Also, internal rules? You make sure like they are followed? That sounds like a dictatorship.
It isn't a real democracy, but if site admins don't listen to their users' opinions they will eventually be the only ones left. Users can't elect their admins, but choose the forum they visit.
-
Ok, to clarify things, free speech and democracy doesn't exist on Omnimaga nor any other English site and will never do as long as trolls and warez exist. The problem this petition brings up is that one Omni admin breaks his own site rules by reprimanding harshly (by Omnimaga standards) or, in some cases, even scolding members who suggest (sometimes nicely) that site issues finally get fixed after almost three years of hiatus. Same goes for when somebody doesn't report an issue or suggestion the exact way that admin wants and this is why I stopped using ourl.ca/issue and the OmnomIRC/site feedback sub-forums. Also, indirectly and/or sarcastically making fun of your established members' reading skills (see Soru's post above then mine) (http://www.omnimaga.org/omnomirc-and-spybot45-development/omnomirc-changelog-and-suggestions/msg394504/#msg394504) is not a good way to keep them around.
Also another issue is how talk about certain topics he doesn't like is not allowed in the main channel. It's exactly like if a Casio fanboy staff decided to lock any thread discussing about the TI-Nspire CX. Omnimaga is supposed to discourage intolerance, not encourage it.
But apparently admins are perfect and never did anything wrong (at least from that one admin's perspective). It's always the user (at least whoever complains, because apparently that's very hurtful and a deliberate attempt at offending people) fault. It's just that now, instead of 1 person voicing his concerns about the behavior of one or more admins, it's many people.
My personal opinion is that just because somebody pays to keep a site up doesn't mean we should worship him like a god and never reprimand him. It doesn't mean he has more rights to belittle users or make them feel less smart either.
-
On the other hand it isn't clear for me that Eeems' behaviour is the cause of it, maybe it's a bit too easy to just blame him?
We're not saying Eeems's behaviour is the only cause of the change of atmosphere. We're saying it's ONE cause we experienced and we can discuss on. As geekboy put it, most admin stuff happens behind the scenes, so we don't actually have anything to say about it. What we can't tolerate though, is one admin being explicitely mean and unfair to members, and because it's an admin nobody said anything about it until then.
-
As I said on IRC, Eeems is the current scapegoat for Omni. So it's rather easy to blame him for everything. But yeah I understand the entire admin team is blameable for some stuff too. Eeems' personality don't really help, either.
-
I personally think this whole thing has been blown out of proportions, but I'll provide my two cents.
- lately, Eeems has been modifying features of the site that could have bothered the user experience of Omnimaga members, and this without any prior consent from any member, and in this case with the explicit disagreement of a support staff : http://chat.eeems.ca:9003/?server=irc.omnimaga.org%206667&channel=omnimaga&date=Thu%20Nov%2006%202014#1415302519917 (http://chat.eeems.ca:9003/?server=irc.omnimaga.org%206667&channel=omnimaga&date=Thu%20Nov%2006%202014#1415302519917)
One (or a few) people not liking a change doesn't mean it's a bad change. Regarding this particular change of post edit notifications in IRC, if they do in fact filter out spammy multi-edits as Eeems suggested they should, I actually welcome this change.
- in similar situations, Eeems said having the right to perform such modifications as he is the one paying for the hosting of the site. While we all thank him for this, this fact shouldn't become an excuse for making alone decisions that could affect greatly, and in any way, user experience.
Since he's paying for the site and I believe is a primary code contributor, I think Eeems does deserve more weight in these decisions. Regarding the change above, it doesn't really seem like a change that could greatly affect users' experiences. Even if you don't like it, it's a minor annoyance at most. But if there are larger changes that he has made that others have disagreed with which you'd like to bring up, those could be a different story. Preferably, bring them up with another site staff member.
- the co-owner group now only contains Eeems and geekboy, when it used to include way more people like rcfreak0 and Netham45 (the latter holding the full legal rights on the domain, as shown when entering "omnimaga.org" as a domain name here : http://whois.pir.org/ (http://whois.pir.org/)). If it was the result of group reorganization, no Omnimaga user was notified of such action unlike the news item located here says it would happen : http://www.omnimaga.org/news/the-status-of-our-staffing-and-the-changes-that-are-being-made/ (http://www.omnimaga.org/news/the-status-of-our-staffing-and-the-changes-that-are-being-made/)
Neither rcfeak0 nor Netham45 were forcibly overthrown. But yes, the diminishing core staff population is concerning, and it would be nice to have more. I can't say I know who those people should be, though.
- despite Omnimaga being meant to be a friendly place of interest sharing, free speech, and overall amusement, we feel that Eeems treats it too much like a professional responsibility, thus harming the enjoyment of members.
I can't say I've felt this lately, but I also haven't been around much lately. If there's any particular evidence of this to cite, perhaps that could be more compelling. Again, preferably show this to a site staff member.
- the Omnimaga IRC chat has been made by Netham45 then Sorunome to be a free place of discussion. In our opinion, Eeems has proven irrelevant over-restrictiveness several times. We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.
This sounds a lot like the first point, both of which are actually already the case in Cemetech's IRC channel, and both of which I personally think are positive changes. While having to move to a different IRC channel can be annoying, I completely understand the reasoning for a site admin wanting off-topic discussion to occur outside of the main channel. Off-topic chat should always be liable to being asked to move. If your issue is the manner in which you were asked to move, that deserves consideration, though.
Overall, we think that Eeems should prove more humble behavior, both towards site members and the site itself. It goes by accepting (and actually requesting) others' opinions and taking into account negative feedback. While we perfectly understand the privileges given by the statute of site administrator, we think it should not be mistaken with the statute of absolute ruler.
I agree that accepting others' feedback should definitely occur. However, don't confuse not accepting feedback with accepting feedback but disagreeing. And this is linked to the second point; I haven't seen any issues large enough that have warranted Eeems' disagreement with feedback to be scrutinized. Feel free to show any such issues, though.
-
And what needs to change other then you all realizing we are doing what we can with the site to make it better. So you may not like a change. But its not your site. You have an issue voice it (hence why this topic is not deleted) But dont expect us to follow everything the members want. It's a community run by the admin team (and owners when they voice it). Not an admin team run by a community.
Geek, you really are bad about phrasing statements :P
@everyone: What we mean by the site is not a democracy is that there is some level of direction to our actions without elections or general votes. However, that does not mean we fail to consider anyone's opinion. If you talk to the admins, then [at least some of us] will listen. But no one has mentioned any issues to me and indeed, the other admins mentioned that these issues were never explicitly vocalized to us. If you have problems with the site, message one or all of the admins. We're more than willing to listen, but posting petitions is more annoying than helpful.
In our opinion, Eeems has proven irrelevant over-restrictiveness several times.
In my experience, Eeems can come across as over-bearing, but my disagreements with him are almost certainly not the ones you have. People never see 90+% of administrative discussions because we deliberately keep them out of public.
We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.
This has been policy for as long as I've been here and there have been several times I've asked eeems to do this when I'm busy.
What we can't tolerate though, is one admin being explicitely mean and unfair to members, and because it's an admin nobody said anything about it until then.
Tell us. Pull someone aside in a PM and say "what he did was not cool, here are the logs". I have personally called other admins out for being arses before and I'll have no problem either doing it again or explaining why it was not as it may seem. We're here to listen to you, but we can do our job much more effectively if you talk to us.
-
Neither rcfeak0 nor Netham45 were forcibly overthrown. But yes, the diminishing core staff population is concerning, and it would be nice to have more. I can't say I know who those people should be, though.
I need to leave for a bit, But I want to point out this is correct. I'm quite inactive, But I'm around if i'm poked somewhere.I'm sorry I don't have more to contribute to this topic at this time, But i'll be reading it and keeping up on it to respond later if need be.
-
Things seem to have calmed down for a bit. Let me try to shove together what came out of this so far. Apparently Eeems isn't actually acting on his own but it looks like it because the other admins are backscene. It was good to actually see them one time (and that they actually react pretty fast if needed). I really want to stress that we did not want to hurt anyone and I sincerely apologise to anyone who got hurt. I just really hope that this will be seen as a wake-up call. For the admins: Please show us you are alive! We pretty much forgot about all of you. Make a post now and then. Get your face out there! On the other hand I would really appreciate if we were updated some more on site decisions and allowed to give community feedback if the changes are going to alter the look and feel of the site. I know I said earlier in this thread I'd be leaving if I still don't feel at home and I mean it. But I love Omni and I really hope I don't have to do things like that.
(the following has been edited in and might feel like repeating things before but i'm just expressing another thought...)
Like I said it turned out to not be about Eeems, but it is that we don't know what is going on under the hood. Admins that we haven't seen for months or even years. It's about transparency. Admins show us what kinds of things you are discussing. Write us an update, or pop up on IRC and share your ideas. I think it's not good if a management team does not gather feedback from what it manages, especially if it's a community.
might update this post again if I get new ideas.
-
So we were saying "we feel that Eeems is not perfect".
And you answered "he's the most perfect of all our admins, he does everything".
Well maybe what this means is that since Eeems has to do everything on his own, he's getting stressed out and gets bitter sometimes when some of us complain about almost nothing when he made so much work.
So maybe we were actually not targetting at the right problem, but that doesn't mean there is no problem.
There's a reason why we didn't talk of it with Eeems himself, it's because well, as I said we are complaining of him not being really nice so none of us really wanted to have a talk (even though as I said and as I will say, maybe it wasn't his fault).
There's a reason why we didn't talk of it with other admins, it's because we never see them. Maybe they come once a day and do things but we never hear of them, we only see Eeems, we can only talk to Eeems.
So maybe admins should be more present, or more numerous, or both, so that Eeems doesn't have to do everything on his own, and he'll be less stressed out and nicer, and we would feel better. Plus, work would be done faster.
Sorry Eeems if we have hurt you if it wasn't your fault. But since you were the only one present and bitter (probably due to being tired), we felt like you were the problem even though probably not.
-
My two cents time (even though this appears to be resolved):
I somewhat agree with the OP (replacing Eeems with the admin team) in that the admin team does occasionally make changes that have a negative impact on the user experience, BUT these changes are not necessarily ones that could be avoided (referring to the links fiasco around the SMF upgrade).
In disagreement with the OP, http://ourl.ca/issue (http://ourl.ca/issue) is not ineffective. If you prod an admin about something you put in the issue form, they will tell you the result, BUT in my experience, only after you prod them. I think communication with the user who sent in the issue should be mandatory through email or PM, so the user does not feel ignored, even when they aren't.
Also I am a living example of the admins changing things on a specific user, BUT honestly these are harmless and I think funny. Others may not react as kindly, BUT Geekboy knew I wouldn't bitch about it unless he changed my nick to PeeMathBrainFart again (like on April Fools).
All in all, things aren't as bad as the petition says they are, but not as good as the admins say they are. Honestly, I think that better communication should fix the problem (not on an ask and you shall receive basis, but a periodic report or something of the sort).
Those are my two cents.
-
So to risk some flaming. We are talking internally on how to be more outward with things. We are bouncing some ideas around. That being said. We always answer when poked.
Also your the best Lobster Pimath <3
-
Also your the best Lobster Pimath <3
you're*
/me runs
-
/me puts the Lobster pot on.
In all seriousness tho. How did you guys not know I'm an admin. (Some of you I personally have solved issues with before. ) I am also on just as much if not more then Eeems. (well I was new job now dictates otherwise).
-
Well you are listed as support staff instead of admin, so I think that confuses some people (although you've explained this on hcwp to me before several times).
-
Idk why It was support staff its sposed to have been Co-Owner
-
Well now it is, and some of the confusion is more easily cleared up.
As a note to the general user base: I think we should wait until all the impending changes are done until we list our problems with the changes, as some of these might already be on the admins' radar.
-
There have been many reported issues that were literally ignored. Part of the issue is http://ourl.ca/issue (http://ourl.ca/issue). That thing is in no way a proper issue tracker. This subforum is a much better place to be heard, but you guys are encouraging the use of an unusable feature instead.
You are correct, that is not a proper issue tracker, we could be more transparent on our issue managment. I can tell you though that there are only eight issues currently on the issue queue, of them only three haven't been touched yet. Some "issues" reported with ourl.ca/issue are not concidered an issue but a request (Which should use ourl.ca/request) and have been moved to that queue instead. That queue is much larger currently, but since it's not a break in functionality, implementing it has a lower priority then the issue log.
If you feel that there are many issues that have been ignored, could you compile a list of them and bring them to us so we can let you know what has happened with them and why?
In response to the fact that you called ourl.ca/issue unusable, could you let me know how it is unusable? As far as I can see people have been able to submit issues and we have been able to resolve them. While yes, the public can't see what is going on in the issue tracker behind the scenes, things are being done. There is also a plan in place to replace it with a proper issue tracker that will have email notifications and more for users. The issue with the subforum is that it also is not a proper issue tracker. Things reported there are easily lost and forgotten about. With the tool we are currently using, it is rather easy to see how many issues there are, who is working on them, what their priority is and if anything
In my experience, Eeems can come across as over-bearing, but my disagreements with him are almost certainly not the ones you have. People never see 90+% of administrative discussions because we deliberately keep them out of public.
I'm just use to being very direct with people I feel comfortable with :(
Tell us. Pull someone aside in a PM and say "what he did was not cool, here are the logs". I have personally called other admins out for being arses before and I'll have no problem either doing it again or explaining why it was not as it may seem. We're here to listen to you, but we can do our job much more effectively if you talk to us.
Thank you for calling me out when you do btw. I quite appreciate it.
So we were saying "we feel that Eeems is not perfect".
And you answered "he's the most perfect of all our admins, he does everything".
That is not what they are saying, and that is not how you have come across with this. When a public "petition" is posted about a specific person without first talking to that person about your grievances and trying to resolve them. When you have also not talked with the other authorities and brought your grievances forward. Then no matter what your intentions are the person brought into question, and the authorities who you have also spurned will see this as an attack against the person in question.
What was said was also not that I was the most perfect of all the admins, it was only that I am the most publicly facing of all admins and that I'm not acting on my own whims.
Well maybe what this means is that since Eeems has to do everything on his own, he's getting stressed out and gets bitter sometimes when some of us complain about almost nothing when he made so much work.
I do not have to do everything on my own, but quite often I have to go out of my way to make sure that the other admins get involved in things in a timely manner. This is something we are working on for our internal process. It's understandable that they are quite busy with their schooling/work. I'm one of the lucky ones who works on a computer all day long and thus able to see things almost as they happen and react (Unless I'm busy in meetings).
I do get stress though and sometimes a little bitter about people complaining about things that I'm working hard on implementing. Thus is the life of a sysadmin.
So maybe we were actually not targetting at the right problem, but that doesn't mean there is no problem.
I agree
There's a reason why we didn't talk of it with other admins, it's because we never see them. Maybe they come once a day and do things but we never hear of them, we only see Eeems, we can only talk to Eeems.
I'm pretty sure geekboy is on a lot, and shmibs is on in the evening every day or so.
So maybe admins should be more present, or more numerous, or both, so that Eeems doesn't have to do everything on his own, and he'll be less stressed out and nicer, and we would feel better. Plus, work would be done faster.
I would like for them to be more active and to help with the issue/request logs, I prod them about it almost daily. I usually am nicer when I have no stress :)
Sorry Eeems if we have hurt you if it wasn't your fault. But since you were the only one present and bitter (probably due to being tired), we felt like you were the problem even though probably not.
I wouldn't say I was all that bitter at the time. Thank you for the apology though, it's greatly appreciated :)
In disagreement with the OP, http://ourl.ca/issue (http://ourl.ca/issue) is not ineffective. If you prod an admin about something you put in the issue form, they will tell you the result, BUT in my experience, only after you prod them. I think communication with the user who sent in the issue should be mandatory through email or PM, so the user does not feel ignored, even when they aren't.
We are perfectly willing to tell you guys things, but since we are busy we don't activly prod you about issues unless we need your help in resolving it. I am working on a replacement for the issue system that will have full transparency in the process and have email notifications.
Also your the best Lobster Pimath <3
Almost as good as Netham, but he's not just a normal loberster
<3
-
Also, I'm pretty much always around (although the next few months might be a bit more scarce). You can always poke me about things. If nothing else I can pass stuff on. I can (and do) also help with minor stuff you guys might need (moving topics, changing passwords, fixing minor acct issues, etc.). I certainly hope no one feels put off by changes made. Obviously, we want this to be a place people enjoy and come back to. So yes, do voice your opinions. We are always listening.
-
(referring to the links fiasco around the SMF upgrade).
Well to clarify on that one, the upgrade was not supposed to happen that soon, it happened in emergency because serious security exploits got discovered in the previous install, forcing a premature upgrade. Also, if the upgrade didn't happen then, it would have happened this month, because now Simplemachines just killed SMF 1.1.x. There will not be a SMF 1.1.21 security patch, because they said a few weeks ago when releasing 2.0.9 + 1.1.20 that after 1.1.20, it's over. (Although I don't understand why they terminated the 1.1 branch so soon, when it took 6 years after 1.1 release to terminate 1.0)
On top of that, the Omnimaga admin team better stop working on the forum theme right now, because apparently SMF 2.1 is in alpha or beta stages, on Github, so why work hard on a forum theme when you know you'll have to redo it again from scratch in two years (since SMF will most likely put the axe in 2.0.x shortly afterward)? I guess fixing some display issues wouldn't hurt, though, but I mean not spending weeks and weeks polishing a SMF 2.0 theme that won't even run on 2.1 >.<
-
Hi there!
I'm alberthrocks, a [something something related to admin/mod stuffs, don't know because I'm a weird member]. I'm a very boring member - don't post much (if at all), but I do provide servers and support on occasion. I'm probably best known for running withgusto (http://www.omnimaga.org/web-programming-and-design/withgusto-networks-status-updates-and-discussion/105/), a community hosting server that provides hosting (duh), along with a nice shell environment, an awesome** development envrionment, IRC bot hosting, and ZNC IRC bouncers. A lot of people use my services, and (I think) they enjoy them! Despite that, they also know I'm probably one of the more lazier server admins out there, having promised a migration a year ago and never delivered...
That said though, I do listen to everyone's feedback, and when I do get a chance, I make an effort to further withgusto's progress. Often, though, I'm really busy - in fact, I've been gone the past week or so thanks to school midterms. (And coming back now, I was kinda surprised - this little topic popped up!)
Why mention withgusto? Simply said - my situation is somewhat like the other admins. I'm not an admin of Omnimaga by any means - yeah, I do have moderation privs, and yeah, I help out from time to time, but I don't participate per-say in these "admin discussions". :P However, I know the admins pretty well, and had some experience firsthand.
Simply said - people are busy! Eeems has a paid job (full-time, no less), geekboy as well, while others either are in college or working. (Deep Thought, in fact, is in a pretty intense college right now and is working very hard!) So things can get busy from time to time, and it can look like the admins are a bunch of lazy bums (like me!) who are doing nothing. Not true - just busy, that's all.
The next thing you'll say: why not hire new admins? Sure, we can - but it ALSO takes time to vet potential new hires. You wouldn't want a random internet stranger to become a new admin, right? :D We understand that we need new fresh blood to replace the oldies - and believe me, the admins know this better than anyone else. We just don't have a lot of time to do it, but we try to make things work when we get a chance.
Remember the topic about shifting roles and all that? That was created because the admins had a short burst of time to make things work. But as always, Murphy's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law) comes into effect, and it takes a LOT longer... making it stall, as you can see now. (I'm probably still CoT, which probably should be given to somebody that is actually working on a project!)
So don't assume we're not listening - we ARE! :D But we just don't have time, and we wish we did. It's a never-ending vicious cycle, but we love the community, and we want to make sure that things go right. I agree that we probably need one admin to be the publicity guy so it doesn't look like we're shady folks with cigars...
One other thing - THAT admin who is pretty harsh. I'm gonna name him - it's Eeems! :D He can sometimes be a bit brash... ;)
*runs*
No joke, he does make some brash comments sometimes. But you're seeing his bad side. His best is not when you see him at his worst! (Using that in a movie start's at $0.50 per box-office dollar made!) But in all seriousness, yeah he can be a bit brash, and I'm saying that as his friend. We've all had our bad moments, and in no way am I condoning his behavior. I've even seen it firsthand myself - and yeah Eeems, you could make it sound a bit better. :) As people have said, if you think he's being a bit brash, message us admins here and we'll talk to him about it. Yes, it's awkward, but everyone - Eeems, the admins, and the community as a whole - appreciates it. We can all work to better each other and ourselves - admins included.
Finally (finally!), I agree that Eeems (et. al.) should have a bigger say. It's a dictatorship that accepts community feedback - and it's perfectly fine with me. Eeems does pay upwards of $100/mo - and out of his own wallet, too! Sure, we could move the forum to a free forum host... but believe me, you and I know that it would sorta not work out well...
But again, we're not here to rule with iron fists. Yeah, we have the final say, but we all have ears too, and we're working based on your feedback. Pretty much all communities are like this - community driven, with a few upper guys to make the final decisions. It just sounds terrifying when the word "dictatorship" is used - and yeah, let's not use that word again. (BAD ADMINS! STOP USING IT!) Instead, let's go back to the original word, the word that we're all aiming for - community.
So yeah, don't feel too upset. We're actually pretty receptive, and the way our community works as a whole (not just the admin side) is pretty unique. Even if I started a new community (withgusto Forums! WOAH!!!), or anyone else, it wouldn't feel the same as the others. (And if you went to a certain other English calculator community out there, it would certainly be very different!) And honestly, I'm glad - that's why many of us here can call this place home. :)
tl;dr We're trying, be patient!
P.S. - withgusto migration delayed. :devil: Gotta run, bye!
** IMO it's awesome! :D Not sure what the others think, though... especially with the above P.S. :D
EDIT: P.S.S.: Eeems told me to put this link in: http://ourl.ca/finances
-
Well.
Thank you Albert.
-
Well, we expressed ourselves when we felt like things were going bad. Now, I would like to express myself (not as a group this time, really just my feeling) about how things seem to go pretty well now in my opinion :D
I am not going to provide proofs (links) of what I am saying because what for ? I am telling you "it's ok", why would you want me to prove it ? :P
I just don't want you to think "I am bad" all your life even if it's not true just because we told you this once.
So yeah, here's a list of improvements I saw so far in two weeks:
-Someone once reported a problem. Instead of saying "use the form, it's here for something", admins either answered in the thread saying that it will be fixed or fixed this already, I don't remember. But at least they did not say "use the form".
I am obviously not saying that those forms should not be used, but when an issue is reported on a topic (because the member who reported forgot about the forms or just felt like the topic was more appropriate to get an answer or such), and when an admin has the time to say "use the form", he also had the time to fill the form himself for example, if he really wanted that report on a form. I am not saying either that users should go lazy and not use the forms, just that saying only "use the form" is not constructive and it's great that you don't only rely on it.
-We are often on IRC with Eeems and I never saw him bitter those last two weeks. On the contrary, he was making jokes with us, contributing to one of those discussions that would have lead to a "use -spam for spammy discussions".
Once again, I am not saying that spam shouldn't be used, but when there is no serious discussion and when the discussion is joky but not spammy, in my opinion it can stay on the main channel.
(And I think there was something else that improved but I forgot -.-)
-
Actually I wouldn't have minded being told to use the report form if it wasn't for being reprimanded almost everytime for not using it properly (it gets quite hard to remember what goes there, what goes elsewhere and what is out of Omni's control) and being yelled at for not using it beforehand. Although it might not necessarily have been intended to be yelling nor being rude, the way our requests were replied to in March/April sounded like Omnimaga rule #1 only applied to members, not staff. Thankfully I haven't read nor heard about anything like that in a while, but I didn't use the form for a while so I can't really tell if it really stopped or not.
Also both Eeems and Geek have been around more and aside from one instance where SFW 4chan screenshots were censored again, I have not noticed any issue that brought up what partly led to this petition. There were a bit more site changes and stuff until Geek got busy too.
The only issue now (that the petition was not directed at) that have yet to be solved is if the said site updates will continue in long terms and if the promised staffing renewal to increase activity will happen. For that, we need a wayback machine to travel to 2018 in order to know. Also, admins really need to subscribe to SMF news sub-forum so that they don't have to rely on the Issues form in order to know about SMF emergency patches. There is also the issue about project sub-forum requirements, but that was a decision taken by admins and I already voiced my concern about that so I guess this is final. That said, the admins have the right to run the site how they want, so if they decide that things go a specific route and speed, we can't really do anything else than voicing our opinion about it and/or going elsewhere.
-
Yeah i got busy it sucks :?
We are working on the transparency thing with issues. First we have to fix email which eeems is working on pretty regularly (he nags me about shit all the time) Once that is done we can give everyone the ability to subscribe to forums and subforums as well atm you can't! See I disabled it when we updated (and yes I did mention this when we updated because of the limit on the amount of emails we can send. You can currently ask for subscriptions to individual threads tho!
As for fourchan sorry keep that in spam legit/sfw or not :P that's my opinion tho, I would rather not have it in the main channel.
And of course the site will be maintained. And yes there is debate on hiring processes going on. But we currently have to iron some other..bugs? out. Permissions are still being wonky on the new SMF and until I get the solid I wont promote anyone to power.
Subforum requirments? Link to that convo/thread/what ever it was again please?
And as for SMF emergency patches. We are all subscribed to both the debain security lists. The Smf security list. And a few others regarding other tools/utilities we run on the site. We do care :P
-
I don't think there was a topic and I forgot the exact date, but basically from what I gathered, projects like VVVVVV, nVVVVVV or IkarugaX wouldn't even have been considered for project sub-forums. IIRC for VVVVVV it was something about not bringing up crowds.
In other words, if I want a sub-forum, I just have to start a quadratic solver called Pokémon, Mario or Zelda then I'm set. But if I dare working on some obscurely-named 3D RPG in TI-Nspire C then I won't even be considered unless it uses a name as popular as the aforementioned Nintendo franchises.
-
In other words, if I want a sub-forum, I just have to start a quadratic solver called Pokémon, Mario or Zelda then I'm set. But if I dare working on some obscurely-named 3D RPG in TI-Nspire C then I won't even be considered unless it uses a name as popular as the aforementioned Nintendo franchises.
That is not true at all.
-
Maybe, but that's pretty much what I gathered from the convo I had with Geek about sub-forums additions on IRC a few months ago. >.< I mean, if even VVVVVV and Ikaruga, two popular franchises, were not considered, then what will, besides the huge Nintendo franchises and FPS'es?
-
Guys. This debate is more ideolical than anything else (about subforums). VVVVVV didn't have the same polish and replayability as SSBO does/will have. It also didn't help that the author begged multiple times for a subforum. Ikaruga deserved one, imo, but it didn't have a large enough following to be considered "major" in the eyes of at least 3/5 of the admins' minds. While I do not agree with the decision, I understand it. It doesn't help that there are too many subforums as well.
That said, I would like to see a liason position open up, so he/she can work on the openness while the admins work on admining. Maybe just with view perms on the staff boards.