Author Topic: Dear Omnimaga  (Read 23480 times)

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Offline Streetwalrus

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 05:20:04 pm »
And what needs to change other then you all realizing we are doing what we can with the site to make it better.
Is it really making the site better if it scares current members away ?

So you may not like a change. But its not your site. You have an issue voice it
There have been many reported issues that were literally ignored. Part of the issue is http://ourl.ca/issue. That thing is in no way a proper issue tracker. This subforum is a much better place to be heard, but you guys are encouraging the use of an unusable feature instead.

(hence why this topic is not deleted)
This sounds like a threat.

But dont expect us to follow everything the members want. It's a community run by the admin team (and owners when they voice it). Not an admin team run by a community.
Again, we know you have the final word, but do you really want to tear the community apart ?

A simple suggestion to move to a topic-oriented channel. There were no threats. Having separate chat channels encourages discussion of those topics alongside others. It allows the conversation to continue unhindered by others derailing it with other topics.
I disagree. Eeems has been effectively enforcing anime discussion to #anime even when it started while the channel was inactive. Same for pony talk. This is not really cool.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:26:21 pm by Streetwalrus »

Offline Juju

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 05:24:47 pm »
Okay I think you guys both have points. The admin team is doing the best they can (and as I said, you might be understaffed).

Please don't turn this in a war and all try to understand together what's wrong and eventually come to conclusions. And actually do whatever you say in the conclusions, if applicable.

In a friendly and loving way. It's magic.

Or else I'm outta here... (This thread I mean, at least)

Also I feel the problem is no longer really with Eeems alone.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:27:30 pm by Juju »

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Offline lkj

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 05:32:00 pm »
I'm not overly active here, but what I could notice is that this wouldn't be a place to stay at for a longer time.
Same for me. I don't post often anymore, but I noticed that the atmosphere on Omni is changing for the worse. On the other hand it isn't clear for me that Eeems' behaviour is the cause of it, maybe it's a bit too easy to just blame him? It always seemed like he's the one doing most of the work to keep the forum up and doing a good job there, but yeah that's not what the critique was about.
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Geekboy: I am not agreeing with your point that this is not a democracy. We built this place, and I think everybody should have a voice. Also, internal rules? You make sure like they are followed? That sounds like a dictatorship.
It isn't a real democracy, but if site admins don't listen to their users' opinions they will eventually be the only ones left. Users can't elect their admins, but choose the forum they visit.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 05:33:43 pm »
Ok, to clarify things, free speech and democracy doesn't exist on Omnimaga nor any other English site and will never do as long as trolls and warez exist. The problem this petition brings up is that one Omni admin breaks his own site rules by reprimanding harshly (by Omnimaga standards) or, in some cases, even scolding members who suggest (sometimes nicely) that site issues finally get fixed after almost three years of hiatus. Same goes for when somebody doesn't report an issue or suggestion the exact way that admin wants and this is why I stopped using ourl.ca/issue and the OmnomIRC/site feedback sub-forums. Also, indirectly and/or sarcastically making fun of your established members' reading skills (see Soru's post above then mine) is not a good way to keep them around.

Also another issue is how talk about certain topics he doesn't like is not allowed in the main channel. It's exactly like if a Casio fanboy staff decided to lock any thread discussing about the TI-Nspire CX. Omnimaga is supposed to discourage intolerance, not encourage it.

But apparently admins are perfect and never did anything wrong (at least from that one admin's perspective). It's always the user (at least whoever complains, because apparently that's very hurtful and a deliberate attempt at offending people) fault. It's just that now, instead of 1 person voicing his concerns about the behavior of one or more admins, it's many people.


My personal opinion is that just because somebody pays to keep a site up doesn't mean we should worship him like a god and never reprimand him. It doesn't mean he has more rights to belittle users or make them feel less smart either.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:38:45 pm by DJ Omnimaga »

Offline Matrefeytontias

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 05:37:47 pm »
On the other hand it isn't clear for me that Eeems' behaviour is the cause of it, maybe it's a bit too easy to just blame him?
We're not saying Eeems's behaviour is the only cause of the change of atmosphere. We're saying it's ONE cause we experienced and we can discuss on. As geekboy put it, most admin stuff happens behind the scenes, so we don't actually have anything to say about it. What we can't tolerate though, is one admin being explicitely mean and unfair to members, and because it's an admin nobody said anything about it until then.

Offline Juju

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 05:40:04 pm »
As I said on IRC, Eeems is the current scapegoat for Omni. So it's rather easy to blame him for everything. But yeah I understand the entire admin team is blameable for some stuff too. Eeems' personality don't really help, either.

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Offline Runer112

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 05:47:00 pm »
I personally think this whole thing has been blown out of proportions, but I'll provide my two cents.

- lately, Eeems has been modifying features of the site that could have bothered the user experience of Omnimaga members, and this without any prior consent from any member, and in this case with the explicit disagreement of a support staff : http://chat.eeems.ca:9003/?server=irc.omnimaga.org%206667&channel=omnimaga&date=Thu%20Nov%2006%202014#1415302519917

One (or a few) people not liking a change doesn't mean it's a bad change. Regarding this particular change of post edit notifications in IRC, if they do in fact filter out spammy multi-edits as Eeems suggested they should, I actually welcome this change.

- in similar situations, Eeems said having the right to perform such modifications as he is the one paying for the hosting of the site. While we all thank him for this, this fact shouldn't become an excuse for making alone decisions that could affect greatly, and in any way, user experience.

Since he's paying for the site and I believe is a primary code contributor, I think Eeems does deserve more weight in these decisions. Regarding the change above, it doesn't really seem like a change that could greatly affect users' experiences. Even if you don't like it, it's a minor annoyance at most. But if there are larger changes that he has made that others have disagreed with which you'd like to bring up, those could be a different story. Preferably, bring them up with another site staff member.

- the co-owner group now only contains Eeems and geekboy, when it used to include way more people like rcfreak0 and Netham45 (the latter holding the full legal rights on the domain, as shown when entering "omnimaga.org" as a domain name here : http://whois.pir.org/). If it was the result of group reorganization, no Omnimaga user was notified of such action unlike the news item located here says it would happen : http://www.omnimaga.org/news/the-status-of-our-staffing-and-the-changes-that-are-being-made/

Neither rcfeak0 nor Netham45 were forcibly overthrown. But yes, the diminishing core staff population is concerning, and it would be nice to have more. I can't say I know who those people should be, though.

- despite Omnimaga being meant to be a friendly place of interest sharing, free speech, and overall amusement, we feel that Eeems treats it too much like a professional responsibility, thus harming the enjoyment of members.

I can't say I've felt this lately, but I also haven't been around much lately. If there's any particular evidence of this to cite, perhaps that could be more compelling. Again, preferably show this to a site staff member.

- the Omnimaga IRC chat has been made by Netham45 then Sorunome to be a free place of discussion. In our opinion, Eeems has proven irrelevant over-restrictiveness several times. We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.

This sounds a lot like the first point, both of which are actually already the case in Cemetech's IRC channel, and both of which I personally think are positive changes. While having to move to a different IRC channel can be annoying, I completely understand the reasoning for a site admin wanting off-topic discussion to occur outside of the main channel. Off-topic chat should always be liable to being asked to move. If your issue is the manner in which you were asked to move, that deserves consideration, though.

Overall, we think that Eeems should prove more humble behavior, both towards site members and the site itself. It goes by accepting (and actually requesting) others' opinions and taking into account negative feedback. While we perfectly understand the privileges given by the statute of site administrator, we think it should not be mistaken with the statute of absolute ruler.

I agree that accepting others' feedback should definitely occur. However, don't confuse not accepting feedback with accepting feedback but disagreeing. And this is linked to the second point; I haven't seen any issues large enough that have warranted Eeems' disagreement with feedback to be scrutinized. Feel free to show any such issues, though.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:52:51 pm by Runer112 »

Offline AngelFish

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 05:50:02 pm »

Quote
And what needs to change other then you all realizing we are doing what we can with the site to make it better. So you may not like a change. But its not your site. You have an issue voice it (hence why this topic is not deleted) But dont expect us to follow everything the members want. It's a community run by the admin team (and owners when they voice it). Not an admin team run by a community.

Geek, you really are bad about phrasing statements :P


@everyone: What we mean by the site is not a democracy is that there is some level of direction to our actions without elections or general votes. However, that does not mean we fail to consider anyone's opinion. If you talk to the admins, then [at least some of us] will listen. But no one has mentioned any issues to me and indeed, the other admins mentioned that these issues were never explicitly vocalized to us. If you have problems with the site, message one or all of the admins. We're more than willing to listen, but posting petitions is more annoying than helpful.


Quote
In our opinion, Eeems has proven irrelevant over-restrictiveness several times.

In my experience, Eeems can come across as over-bearing, but my disagreements with him are almost certainly not the ones you have. People never see 90+% of administrative discussions because we deliberately keep them out of public.


Quote
We feel that he has been forcing people to join a different channel to carry discussions about certain topics he doesn't like, while there is no topic restriction for the #omnimaga channel.

This has been policy for as long as I've been here and there have been several times I've asked eeems to do this when I'm busy.

Quote
What we can't tolerate though, is one admin being explicitely mean and unfair to members, and because it's an admin nobody said anything about it until then.

Tell us. Pull someone aside in a PM and say "what he did was not cool, here are the logs". I have personally called other admins out for being arses before and I'll have no problem either doing it again or explaining why it was not as it may seem. We're here to listen to you, but we can do our job much more effectively if you talk to us.
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Offline rcfreak0

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 05:51:16 pm »
Neither rcfeak0 nor Netham45 were forcibly overthrown. But yes, the diminishing core staff population is concerning, and it would be nice to have more. I can't say I know who those people should be, though.

I need to leave for a bit, But I want to point out this is correct. I'm quite inactive, But I'm around if i'm poked somewhere.I'm sorry I don't have more to contribute to this topic at this time, But i'll be reading it and keeping up on it to respond later if need be.

Offline aeTIos

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 08:07:21 pm »
Things seem to have calmed down for a bit. Let me try to shove together what came out of this so far. Apparently Eeems isn't actually acting on his own but it looks like it because the other admins are backscene. It was good to actually see them one time (and that they actually react pretty fast if needed). I really want to stress that we did not want to hurt anyone and I sincerely apologise to anyone who got hurt. I just really hope that this will be seen as a wake-up call. For the admins: Please show us you are alive! We pretty much forgot about all of you. Make a post now and then. Get your face out there! On the other hand I would really appreciate if we were updated some more on site decisions and allowed to give community feedback if the changes are going to alter the look and feel of the site. I know I said earlier in this thread I'd be leaving if I still don't feel at home and I mean it. But I love Omni and I really hope I don't have to do things like that.

(the following has been edited in and might feel like repeating things before but i'm just expressing another thought...)
Like I said it turned out to not be about Eeems, but it is that we don't know what is going on under the hood. Admins that we haven't seen for months or even years. It's about transparency. Admins show us what kinds of things you are discussing. Write us an update, or pop up on IRC and share your ideas. I think it's not good if  a management team does not gather feedback from what it manages, especially if it's a community.

might update this post again if I get new ideas.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 08:32:45 pm by aeTIos »
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Offline Hayleia

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2014, 01:06:34 am »
So we were saying "we feel that Eeems is not perfect".
And you answered "he's the most perfect of all our admins, he does everything".

Well maybe what this means is that since Eeems has to do everything on his own, he's getting stressed out and gets bitter sometimes when some of us complain about almost nothing when he made so much work.

So maybe we were actually not targetting at the right problem, but that doesn't mean there is no problem.

There's a reason why we didn't talk of it with Eeems himself, it's because well, as I said we are complaining of him not being really nice so none of us really wanted to have a talk (even though as I said and as I will say, maybe it wasn't his fault).

There's a reason why we didn't talk of it with other admins, it's because we never see them. Maybe they come once a day and do things but we never hear of them, we only see Eeems, we can only talk to Eeems.

So maybe admins should be more present, or more numerous, or both, so that Eeems doesn't have to do everything on his own, and he'll be less stressed out and nicer, and we would feel better. Plus, work would be done faster.

Sorry Eeems if we have hurt you if it wasn't your fault. But since you were the only one present and bitter (probably due to being tired), we felt like you were the problem even though probably not.
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Offline pimathbrainiac

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 05:29:24 pm »
My two cents time (even though this appears to be resolved):

I somewhat agree with the OP (replacing Eeems with the admin team) in that the admin team does occasionally make changes that have a negative impact on the user experience, BUT these changes are not necessarily ones that could be avoided (referring to the links fiasco around the SMF upgrade).

In disagreement with the OP, http://ourl.ca/issue is not ineffective. If you prod an admin about something you put in the issue form, they will tell you the result, BUT in my experience, only after you prod them. I think communication with the user who sent in the issue should be mandatory through email or PM, so the user does not feel ignored, even when they aren't.

Also I am a living example of the admins changing things on a specific user, BUT honestly these are harmless and I think funny. Others may not react as kindly, BUT Geekboy knew I wouldn't bitch about it unless he changed my nick to PeeMathBrainFart again (like on April Fools).

All in all, things aren't as bad as the petition says they are, but not as good as the admins say they are. Honestly, I think that better communication should fix the problem (not on an ask and you shall receive basis, but a periodic report or something of the sort).

Those are my two cents.
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Offline Geekboy1011

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 05:32:30 pm »
So to risk some flaming. We are talking internally on how to be more outward with things. We are bouncing some ideas around. That being said. We always answer when poked.

Also your the best Lobster Pimath <3

Offline pimathbrainiac

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 05:34:15 pm »
Also your the best Lobster Pimath <3
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Offline Geekboy1011

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Re: Dear Omnimaga
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 05:36:01 pm »
* Geekboy1011 puts the Lobster pot on.

In all seriousness tho. How did you guys not know I'm an admin. (Some of you I personally have solved issues with before. ) I am also on just as much if not more then Eeems. (well I was new job now dictates otherwise).