Author Topic: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)  (Read 19196 times)

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Offline Magic Banana

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2010, 04:59:24 am »
Well, there are quite a few buttons that could be used. I was just saying that [PRGM] and [VARS] are already being used by something else, so if he implements that menu, there might be some conflicts. Also, do any other programs use the double-tap menus or is Omnicalc the only one? I know a few that use [ON]+? for various functions, but not so many for that double-tap.
I do sprites and stuff, so yeah.

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Offline Quigibo

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2010, 05:02:27 am »
@Magic Banana

I think configuring such a list would be a pain for both the programmer and myself to make some type of interface to customize them.  I wouldn't be surprised if with new commands there are eventually 30 such tokens which is a lot to go through.
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Offline Magic Banana

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 07:39:31 am »
Yeah, I see what you mean. Well, I guess it's just fine where they are, its not like they are incredibly difficult to find or anything. Just wondering, how would the TIOS be able to tell the difference between Axe source programs and normal programs in the program editor?
I do sprites and stuff, so yeah.

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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 09:13:19 am »
I still feel the commands like Expr, det, int, >Frac, Repeat and to a lesser extent conj should remain as they are since other Axe version. For SinReg it would be ok if changed since nobody seems to have used it much and for Tangent() since it's brand new, but changing the older stuff will cause a lot of confusion among people who have been used to the old command names for months and people who will browse the forums for help.

Think about all the old topics on the forums. They would totally become useless and lead to confusion since they would all use the old names when the new members would use the new one and old programmers would probably still use the old ones by mistake when helping newbies, or worse: they might even use both at once in their programs. If you force such change on the community I might as well delete all Axe help topics since they will be useless anymore.

This is personally one of the reason that lead to my decision of quitting programming after my current project is done. I hate getting used to such drastic changes so I'M not gonna bother. It's just hard enough to remember what Sqrt() does in BASIC (it's square root command, but on forums, some people use Sqrt(), which I can never remember because I was always used to the actual square root symbol. I always end up searching the CATALOG twice for it)

Personally if the changes for Expr, det, int, Frac, Repeat and other old commands that are commonly used in Axe are applied, I think I'm gonna either delete all old Axe Parser topics completly or lock them up elsewhere. I'm also gonna stop supporting Axe Parser project completly because I feel this is a very bad move, which I am extremly pissed at.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:22:27 am by DJ Omnimaga »
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Offline mapar007

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 09:38:31 am »
^ Shouldn't a 'being able to turn it off' option solve that problem? From my ASM experience, if everything is done right, this shouldn't be too much of a bother to implement (given a version control system :D ). Quigibo?

Offline Magic Banana

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 09:45:20 am »
^ Actually, there's already an option for that. It's [ALPHA]+[VARS] to toggle between the TI tokens and Axe tokens. They still do the same thing, it's just the name that changes.
I do sprites and stuff, so yeah.

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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 09:48:29 am »
still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums (and other calc forums), confusing people who don't have the doc open 24/7 and splitting the community in half in the process
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF



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Offline mapar007

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 09:51:11 am »
I doubt that that will be a large-scale problem in the long run, but I'm not trained in predictive statistics :P

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2010, 10:05:23 am »
I think that the option should be there, but they should not be required.  Also,
still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums
Then why don't we take the time to go back through and change the posts?

Offline calcdude84se

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2010, 10:23:15 am »
Goodness, the votes are split pretty evenly...
I hate to take part in this since this has become, well, we know what this topic has become.
But I feel like I should state my opinion.
I am fine with either, but I do believe that we mustn't split into to parts over this. I will personally go through all my posts where I used the old tokens and replace them with the new ones if it makes things less confusing. For now, I believe that both should remain documented, but that a gradual shift should occur, in which the old tokens are slowly phased out. It is quigibo's project, and, providing he isn't doing anything crazy :P, it should be allowed to go in the direction he wants it to go.
Quigibo has listened to the community, since such feedback is crucial. This topic was created to be a community decision.
All I ask is that we don't split, and this doesn't become something like pick your favorite omnimaga member (quigibo vs dj, it seems)
That's my opinion, and I have no more to say for now
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Offline Galandros

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2010, 10:24:37 am »
DJ I think you are not seeing all aspects of this discussion because you are taking too much your position and even taking it personal, in my opinion.

I think DJ is right to hide all the old posts because the transition will be harder if we continue using them. But he might being dramatic, too, for quitting Omnimaga because of Axe Parser changes that are ultimate choice of its coder, Quigibo.
Not doubt users should have an determinant weight on the matter of software but if users are not happy about it, in this kind of situation, the solution is code themselves new software for their needs.
Also you are stressing Quigibo and all others by the "If when I return tonight there are no updates this is my final post on Omnimaga.". At least give more time to Quigibo than just this night. You are making him precipitate a choice. I agree this choice has to be made as soon as possible.

Now about the part you are not giving attention to all aspects:
I enjoy the idea of using the TI-BASIC tokens, it was really good at start but became complicated. Because it really drops readability of Axe Parser source. Programming languages try to be readable to people and programmers. If Axe Parser continues to use TI-BASIC tokens and get more complicate, it will be hard to programmers from any language other than TI-BASIC (and even some TI-BASIC coders that know other languages), because we learnt eventually all the high level math commands of TI-BASIC but others don't.

The best scenario I can think of, and is a good scenario, and is my sincere opinion is:
1. Don't change the tokens, continue using the TI-BASIC tokens like the initial spirit. Keep the TIOS program editor as it is.
2. Code a custom program editor that changes the tokens text for readability.
3. Have 2 documentations whose difference is simply replace old text by new text. Using a HTML template is a way.
4. Encourage coders to use the "readability mode".
This stills has some problems but can be smartly overcome. I think it is worth the effort about the readability and custom editor that can go little more complex in translating the old token text to new.

Responses:
I think that the option should be there, but they should not be required.  Also,
still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums
Then why don't we take the time to go back through and change the posts?
Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.

Other thing:
Note our posts decrease and reputation changes. :O
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 10:26:24 am by Galandros »
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SirCmpwn

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2010, 10:34:56 am »
Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.


Offline Galandros

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2010, 10:41:41 am »
Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.


hahaha true
Still, good luck with the regular expressions. They might give funny conversions in some cases as well.

EDIT: by the way, they can be conveniently used for the two versions of documentation too.
Keeping a table with equivalents is also nice.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 10:58:48 am by Galandros »
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Offline squidgetx

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2010, 11:10:58 am »
All right...
Since DJ hid all the Axe topics, I don't have access to .3.0 to check out the change.
However, I feel like this decision is really the choice of Quigibo. .2.6 is quite functional as it is, and you can just use that if you don't like the new system. (although since I don't have .3.0 I don't know whether there are any really nice new commands)
I liked the old idea of using BASIC tokens, but I'm also open to change. It's a practical matter; Quigibo's right in that there simply aren't quite enough intuitive tokens. Either way, I feel like we shouldn't try to split as a community, and I certainly don't really appreciate DJ taking the entire Axe project hostage...

I'd really like to get .3.0 to see exactly what has changed...and then I'll cast my vote :P

edit: Also...is it really that much of a pain with the old posts using the old code? People will get confused but I think they will quickly discover the situation, and also due to the high # of posts about Axe, these old topics would get phased out eventually anyway
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 11:15:02 am by squidgetx »

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Re: Axe Tokens (Read Post Before Voting)
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2010, 11:13:31 am »
It is Quigibo's project, and if he wants to gear it this way, DJ has no right to hold the subforum hostage in exchange for the tokens to be removed.  Did he think that perhaps Quigibo has plans today, or is busy?  Maybe he doesn't want to spend his day frantically removing the hooks and pushing a new version out the door.