Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Major Community Projects => The Axe Parser Project => Topic started by: Quigibo on June 17, 2010, 03:23:10 am
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It is very important you read all of this before you vote. This is a crucial part to the future of Axe Parser.
The original concept behind going through the trouble of renaming some of the Tokens is that I am very quickly running out of intuitive TI-BASIC tokens to use for more complicated Axe Commands. I've often resorted to using the r or sometimes even the double rr but that's not going to cut it soon. In this last version, I was all out of sprite tokens, so I used what was left in the drawing menu: Tangent(). The name has no meaning to the intended function and may force one to read the documentation before figuring out what it might be used for.
This is okay though. I realize that a lot of TI-BASIC programmers are used to their tokens and they know where they are on all the menus lightning fast. If you hear the word "Str1" you might immediately think "[VARS][7][1]" as I usually do. But if you hear "Bitmap()" you have no idea where it might be. The catalog isn't in alphabetical order either so that doesn't help much (maybe I can change that with hooks in the future but I'm unsure). So there is a concern that you have to learn new shortcuts.
There are many many new commands still to come. For my example, I will mention the commands for reading from archive. There would need to be an openfile and a readbyte command. It is entirely possible that I just use maybe log() to open the files and prod() to read a byte, there is no problem with that. But I imagine the code is much more readable with Open() and ReadByte() for instance. This is not an isolated case, there are more than 20 other commands I can think of that don't have any meaningful tokens.
One other advantage of renaming some tokens is that often in BASIC, commands such as int() have totally different uses in Axe. This can ease any potential misuse since the new names imply that the interpretation of the commands have changed. While tokens that have the same name will be interpreted as working the same way in both Axe and BASIC.
So, if I start using the new token names, then that raises the new issue of documentation. Sure, it may be possible to document both in the commands list, and maybe even the user's guide, but not having a single standard can get very confusing when reading other people's source code, writing your own tutorials or routines, and even regular conversations like asking for help and fixing code.
I could still offer the option of using the old tokens but just have them minimally documented (like a simple table that tells you the equivalences between tokens). That way, it encourages the new standard among the forums and when documenting the code.
If I have the tokens be completely "Mandatory" then I can hook the program editor so that the tokens are automatically enabled when editing Axe programs and then automatically disabled when you quit to the home screen or edit a regular TI-BASIC program. There could be an option to toggle this behavior in the parser even if the old names names are documented or undocumented.
The last thing I'm going to throw out there: These are only name changes. The actual position in the menus for each token does not change and all past and future source code is totally compatible since the tokes themselves are still the same, only the physical letters displayed on the calculator are affected.
Please ask more questions if you want clarification on something or want to bring up another point. You can change your vote at any time.
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Is option number two, "Even though I like the new tokes names, I think you should still be able to switch to the old ones even if they're not documented," suggesting the idea of keeping it kind of how it is where you can toggle them on and off?
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Yes, except the commands list and stuff would be all the new token names and there might just be one additional chart for conversions. But all other example code and documentation would be with the new tokens.
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Then is option three saying the same thing just that you'll take the time to convert the documentation too?
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As best as I can yes. Its going to be confusing to write documentation through if I have to make extra columns or I would just have to clarify which token naming set the doc is using. The thing to keep in mind with this option though is that many people are going to be using either the new names or the old ones so as long as you're okay with knowing that you may receive the help in either of the 2 spellings and know how to convert them.
Source code written with one token spelling set is obviously readable with the other don't forget so that part makes no difference.
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Might be an idea, but make Alpha+Vars a menu instead of a trigger?
You know, like Omnicalc. If you press prgm twice you get a special omnicalc menu with all their tokens.
Maybe you should make such a menu under Alpha+Vars, would defenitely increase the ease on finding those tokens :)
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As best as I can yes. Its going to be confusing to write documentation through if I have to make extra columns or I would just have to clarify which token naming set the doc is using. The thing to keep in mind with this option though is that many people are going to be using either the new names or the old ones so as long as you're okay with knowing that you may receive the help in either of the 2 spellings and know how to convert them.
Source code written with one token spelling set is obviously readable with the other don't forget so that part makes no difference.
Ah ok. Well before making an offer that I am thinking I need to get something straight. All the new tokens are doing is just changing the name of the previous token, correct? Like if you write something in Axe the "old" way and then toggle the new tokens on the program will act and work exactly the same but the source just displays the new tokens.
Might be an idea, but make Alpha+Vars a menu instead of a trigger?
You know, like Omnicalc. If you press prgm twice you get a special omnicalc menu with all their tokens.
Maybe you should make such a menu under Alpha+Vars, would defenitely increase the ease on finding those tokens :)
Actually I think that [ALPHA][VARS] should remain the trigger but, like you said, pressing [PRGM] twice (while triggered) will bring up a catalog for the new tokens (instead of reordering the previous one to be alphabetical).
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That's a very good idea, especially for the obscure ones you normally have to look through the catalog for. But this is a feature that could be implemented regardless of if I decide to keep the new token names or not. The only difference would be what is displayed on the menu. Its a possibility I can have the text on the menu be different than the token itself with the new spellings and when you select it it puts the regular BASIC token there. But that wouldn't help readability of the source which is the main purpose for the proposed name changes.
EDIT: And yes. This entire thread is about the spelling of the tokens and nothing else. The physical bytes of the tokens are identical always and always compatible across the board. How the spelling affects documentation is one of the main concerns.
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I personally don't like the idea, because Axe has been using
Otherwise, in worst case scenarios, you could maybe change only, and I really say only tokens that were not used in previous versions of Axe (such as Tangent) and use the exact same starting letter so it's sorted properly in the Catalog (assuming Tangent() is for large sprites, Tallsprite() or TallTile() could maybe do). Conj(), Repeat and the like should remain named as they are, IMHO. Also, think about people who are gonna give help to newbies, they will tell people to use Conj() but newbies will not see Conj() listed in the command list or will need to search more.
I personally would leave things as they were, otherwise. Think also about the users who are used a lot to TI-BASIC tokens and may forget to switch back (altough maybe a check could be done to detect if a PRGM is Axe or BASIC), I wish them good luck debugging their large BASIC game until they find out. Also some people has trouble getting used to new stuff when they were used to something else. (like me)
Had Axe been using such token change since the very beginning, I would have been fine, but now most people got used to the current names.
Leaving things as they were would also prevent potential issues with future TI-OSes and third-party APPS releases for short periods of time before Axe is updated.
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I can see your legitimate concerns, but I'm a little confused about that last part:
Leaving things as they were would also prevent potential issues with future TI-OSes and third-party APPS releases for short periods of time before Axe is updated.
Why would new TI-OSes or apps conflict with displaying a different spelling for the token? Especially if its only during the program editor session with Axe source?
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Remember what happened to TI-BASIC games that uses inverted text (white fonts on black background), Omnicalc features, xLIB as a whole and Door CS betas when OS 2.53MP came out. Notice how Ndless only runs on OS 1.1 on the TI-Nspires. Remember how Illusiat 6 will not run correctly on OS 1.15 or later (due to the OS ASCII map having been changed). Sadly, we are dealing with Texas Instruments here. We never know what kind of OS they will throw at us in a year or two. I also remember third-party apps conflicting between each others as well. Example: Français APP with old versions of Omnicalc.
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That's a very good idea, especially for the obscure ones you normally have to look through the catalog for. But this is a feature that could be implemented regardless of if I decide to keep the new token names or not. The only difference would be what is displayed on the menu. Its a possibility I can have the text on the menu be different than the token itself with the new spellings and when you select it it puts the regular BASIC token there. But that wouldn't help readability of the source which is the main purpose for the proposed name changes.
EDIT: And yes. This entire thread is about the spelling of the tokens and nothing else. The physical bytes of the tokens are identical always and always compatible across the board. How the spelling affects documentation is one of the main concerns.
Ah ok, well if you implemented that double tap [PRGM] thing you could make it so it just holds all the Axe supported commands in it and while using TI tokens they are just kind of there but when you toggle Axe tokens on they appear in alphabetical order (or if both were alphabetical that would work even better, just not sure how easy that would be or not). I have no idea if this is what you were saying exactly or not. I'm a bit tired :P
Ok, so it is what I thought. If you would like I would be happy to help with documentation stuff. Like, for example, have two versions of the Documentation.pdf. One that is using the TI tokens and the other using the new Axe tokens. I could also help with the editing of the command list so it includes the TI tokens and then in a next column it has the Axe token and then finally the explanation of the use. Speaking for myself I honestly would find that useful since that way you have a nice "conversion table" in the command list, a document file for the people who prefer the TI tokens so they can just keep on keeping track that way, and then for people interested they have the Axe tokens documentation so you can see how it all will flow together and look with the new tokens.
I am hoping at least some of this makes sense due to the fact I am tired, as I stated before :P
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The actual doc is easy to do. I can very easily "add another column". But at the same time, I want to make things as simple as possible. 2 separate pdfs in the same zip file seems like its separating the Axe community in half and also there are probably only 1 or 2 commands in there that need changing at all. Its not MY documentation that I'm concerned about becasue I have complete control over that. Its how others will document their code and their tutorials, etc. Should they really have to make 2 versions to appeal to 2 crowds is the question.
Not all the new tokens I'm keeping by the way. "Repeat" I realize is best left alone since it functions very similarly to BASIC. Others like "sign{" would likely be kept.
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Well, I like the idea of changing the tokens to make them more readable, especially for the newer Axe programmers. What I don't like is that you can only toggle all of them off or on, and there are some commands (mainly repeat) that I don't like to have changed. The ones that you have changed are nice, but that's just me because I personally haven't gotten into those commands, so when I do it will be easier to understand. I guess what I'm looking for is a choice in the options to choose which commands you want to use the TI token name and which ones you want to use the Axe token name, so we can use whichever ones we feel comfortable with without having to use all the tokens of one or the other.
The idea of having all the special tokens in a special 'double tap' menu sounds pretty cool as well, but PGRM or VARS wouldn't be the best button to use, seeing as Omnicalc uses those already. Maybe sin/cos/tan would be good to use. As for the documentation, it would be really helpful to list which ones you have changed so we know when you mention Bitmap( we will know that it is the same as Tangent( and not a whole new token.
That's my 2 cents.
EDIT: Just read your post and saw that you cover most of what I'm talking about already, but I don't feel like going though and editing it, so meh. :P
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Ah ok, gotcha.
Speaking for myself here, but once the Axe tokens become more widely spread and such I will be taking the time to just go through and change things for both versions so everyone can read it and all. I would say that the TI tokens would be easier in general for documenting though since the Axe tokens are not widely known and such. Plus, once you type something in with the TI tokens then just toggle the Axe tokens on you can then see the new tokens to help understand if you previously didn't (and really vise-versa too but ya).
What would be a really cool little utility for a computer would be so that when you transfer Axe source to the computer you can run it through a program that will display the original program as it is (with TI tokens) and then a little window separator that just simply changes the tokens to the Axe ones. That way it'd be really easy for people to just post both sets of code and such. I have no clue if that makes sense but ya.
@Magic Banana
If [PRGM] or [VARS] didn't work, [STAT] could be used.
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Well, there are quite a few buttons that could be used. I was just saying that [PRGM] and [VARS] are already being used by something else, so if he implements that menu, there might be some conflicts. Also, do any other programs use the double-tap menus or is Omnicalc the only one? I know a few that use [ON]+? for various functions, but not so many for that double-tap.
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@Magic Banana
I think configuring such a list would be a pain for both the programmer and myself to make some type of interface to customize them. I wouldn't be surprised if with new commands there are eventually 30 such tokens which is a lot to go through.
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Yeah, I see what you mean. Well, I guess it's just fine where they are, its not like they are incredibly difficult to find or anything. Just wondering, how would the TIOS be able to tell the difference between Axe source programs and normal programs in the program editor?
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I still feel the commands like Expr, det, int, >Frac, Repeat and to a lesser extent conj should remain as they are since other Axe version. For SinReg it would be ok if changed since nobody seems to have used it much and for Tangent() since it's brand new, but changing the older stuff will cause a lot of confusion among people who have been used to the old command names for months and people who will browse the forums for help.
Think about all the old topics on the forums. They would totally become useless and lead to confusion since they would all use the old names when the new members would use the new one and old programmers would probably still use the old ones by mistake when helping newbies, or worse: they might even use both at once in their programs. If you force such change on the community I might as well delete all Axe help topics since they will be useless anymore.
This is personally one of the reason that lead to my decision of quitting programming after my current project is done. I hate getting used to such drastic changes so I'M not gonna bother. It's just hard enough to remember what Sqrt() does in BASIC (it's square root command, but on forums, some people use Sqrt(), which I can never remember because I was always used to the actual square root symbol. I always end up searching the CATALOG twice for it)
Personally if the changes for Expr, det, int, Frac, Repeat and other old commands that are commonly used in Axe are applied, I think I'm gonna either delete all old Axe Parser topics completly or lock them up elsewhere. I'm also gonna stop supporting Axe Parser project completly because I feel this is a very bad move, which I am extremly pissed at.
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^ Shouldn't a 'being able to turn it off' option solve that problem? From my ASM experience, if everything is done right, this shouldn't be too much of a bother to implement (given a version control system :D ). Quigibo?
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^ Actually, there's already an option for that. It's [ALPHA]+[VARS] to toggle between the TI tokens and Axe tokens. They still do the same thing, it's just the name that changes.
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still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums (and other calc forums), confusing people who don't have the doc open 24/7 and splitting the community in half in the process
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I doubt that that will be a large-scale problem in the long run, but I'm not trained in predictive statistics :P
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I think that the option should be there, but they should not be required. Also,
still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums
Then why don't we take the time to go back through and change the posts?
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Goodness, the votes are split pretty evenly...
I hate to take part in this since this has become, well, we know what this topic has become.
But I feel like I should state my opinion.
I am fine with either, but I do believe that we mustn't split into to parts over this. I will personally go through all my posts where I used the old tokens and replace them with the new ones if it makes things less confusing. For now, I believe that both should remain documented, but that a gradual shift should occur, in which the old tokens are slowly phased out. It is quigibo's project, and, providing he isn't doing anything crazy :P, it should be allowed to go in the direction he wants it to go.
Quigibo has listened to the community, since such feedback is crucial. This topic was created to be a community decision.
All I ask is that we don't split, and this doesn't become something like pick your favorite omnimaga member (quigibo vs dj, it seems)
That's my opinion, and I have no more to say for now
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DJ I think you are not seeing all aspects of this discussion because you are taking too much your position and even taking it personal, in my opinion.
I think DJ is right to hide all the old posts because the transition will be harder if we continue using them. But he might being dramatic, too, for quitting Omnimaga because of Axe Parser changes that are ultimate choice of its coder, Quigibo.
Not doubt users should have an determinant weight on the matter of software but if users are not happy about it, in this kind of situation, the solution is code themselves new software for their needs.
Also you are stressing Quigibo and all others by the "If when I return tonight there are no updates this is my final post on Omnimaga.". At least give more time to Quigibo than just this night. You are making him precipitate a choice. I agree this choice has to be made as soon as possible.
Now about the part you are not giving attention to all aspects:
I enjoy the idea of using the TI-BASIC tokens, it was really good at start but became complicated. Because it really drops readability of Axe Parser source. Programming languages try to be readable to people and programmers. If Axe Parser continues to use TI-BASIC tokens and get more complicate, it will be hard to programmers from any language other than TI-BASIC (and even some TI-BASIC coders that know other languages), because we learnt eventually all the high level math commands of TI-BASIC but others don't.
The best scenario I can think of, and is a good scenario, and is my sincere opinion is:
1. Don't change the tokens, continue using the TI-BASIC tokens like the initial spirit. Keep the TIOS program editor as it is.
2. Code a custom program editor that changes the tokens text for readability.
3. Have 2 documentations whose difference is simply replace old text by new text. Using a HTML template is a way.
4. Encourage coders to use the "readability mode".
This stills has some problems but can be smartly overcome. I think it is worth the effort about the readability and custom editor that can go little more complex in translating the old token text to new.
Responses:
I think that the option should be there, but they should not be required. Also,
still remains the fact the old and news commands would still be plastered all over the forums
Then why don't we take the time to go back through and change the posts?
Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.
Other thing:
Note our posts decrease and reputation changes. :O
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Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/regular_expressions.png)
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Totally not practical, it is simply too much code. What we can change is documentation on the commands and a guide to convert old to new code. Move old code posts to a archive, a graceful rest for them. Nothing more can be done about it.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/regular_expressions.png)
hahaha true
Still, good luck with the regular expressions. They might give funny conversions in some cases as well.
EDIT: by the way, they can be conveniently used for the two versions of documentation too.
Keeping a table with equivalents is also nice.
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All right...
Since DJ hid all the Axe topics, I don't have access to .3.0 to check out the change.
However, I feel like this decision is really the choice of Quigibo. .2.6 is quite functional as it is, and you can just use that if you don't like the new system. (although since I don't have .3.0 I don't know whether there are any really nice new commands)
I liked the old idea of using BASIC tokens, but I'm also open to change. It's a practical matter; Quigibo's right in that there simply aren't quite enough intuitive tokens. Either way, I feel like we shouldn't try to split as a community, and I certainly don't really appreciate DJ taking the entire Axe project hostage...
I'd really like to get .3.0 to see exactly what has changed...and then I'll cast my vote :P
edit: Also...is it really that much of a pain with the old posts using the old code? People will get confused but I think they will quickly discover the situation, and also due to the high # of posts about Axe, these old topics would get phased out eventually anyway
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It is Quigibo's project, and if he wants to gear it this way, DJ has no right to hold the subforum hostage in exchange for the tokens to be removed. Did he think that perhaps Quigibo has plans today, or is busy? Maybe he doesn't want to spend his day frantically removing the hooks and pushing a new version out the door.
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Read page 4, my apoligy for my reaction.
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Hey, its taken care of now. Don't worry about it.
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Ok, I really just want to say this once, please. Can we please stop bashing DJ AND Quigibo?
Reasons for Quigibo:
1. Axe Parser is his project. He has all the right in the world to go the direction he chooses, whether we agree with it or not. (My opinion: I think it is INCREDIBLY nice of him to have put this topic up in the first place to see what we think. It has changed into a "hate-fest" now, or it seems like it to me.)
2. No official decisions have been made, to my knowledge. He hasn't stated that he is going to do one thing or the other for sure. All he is doing right now is testing them out to see what we think.
3. He has been a great pal to all of us since he arrived in the TI community (or at least since I joined). He has been there to explain code, help us, ask for help, etc. He doesn't deserve the mistreatments.
4. He is not trying to anger anyone or force anything upon anyone right now.
Reasons for DJ:
1. Omnimaga is his site, he does have the right to do what he wishes with it whether we agree or not. Everyone is has their own opinions. (My opinion: Yes, I think power is being a little abused but I do understand, to a degree, where he is coming from and I'm not going to bitch and complain about it.)
2. He is going off of experience. He is just trying to prevent a big thing of misunderstandings and complications.
3. He is trying to help people like him that don't adjust to changes like those very easily. He isn't trying to purposely be mean to anyone or hurt anyone. He is just trying to help and make sure no one gets excluded or confused or anything.
4. He has been a huge friend to us all and has supported everyone of us in projects, ideas, program help, and a bunch of other things.
5. Not to bring his personal stuff into any of it but he has stated here on Omnimaga that there is just stuff that is affecting decisions and such, he doesn't need to extra bashing to go on top of anything else that is going on.
I am absolutely sure, for a fact, that there are more reasons for both of them. That is just what I thought of when writing this.
Now again, I do not intend to anger anyone by saying these things. I am simply trying to kill the bashing that is going on in this thread, which was not the intention. Everyone has a right to speak/type their opinion, but when you are targeting people specifically or making threats or bashing someone that, I believe, is crossing the line. Sorry.
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I'm also going to say this frankly.
Stop the bullshit, guys. I will not tolerate a single negative comment towards either of these people. Keep in mind that Axe isn't even an official release yet. Stop making any negative comments, period. You do not want to test me.
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Just to clarify the whole thing started before that topic poll was even created, in answer to Meishe91 post. For the rest, that's another story, I'll try to explain later if I figure out how, but for now I would like if people did not post narrow-minded comments regarding the action of anybody including myself or Quigibo. We do not delete offensive posts on Omnimaga (unless they contain Warez or Porn), it is up to the post author to delete/edit it. We will warn and rate posts, simply, but I would like if this did not turn into a flame fest against anybody. Omnimaga is meant to be a place free of hostility as it says on the front page and the rules, and a lot of people prefered this site because of that.
I need some time to think about how I'll explain what happened. I assure you there are no possibility that this happens again, though, because due to certain circumstances, I prefered that the other site admins and some IRC chan ops remove my access from the hosting webspace and the FTP and the only admin action I will soon take is resetting post counts of members, if that is possible.
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happy forum is happy
my 2 cents:
I think that, while the original goal of Axe was to provide a similar style to TI BASIC programmers, this is kind of necessary. Commands like Tangent( do not share any similar syntax between Axe and BASIC, and so it's fine to have the token hook replace this with Bitmap(.
Like DJ said somewhere, i think that many of the tokens that share similar syntaxes, like Repeat and possibly conj( should be switched back.
In other words, practice moderation when changing token names. If, Quigibo, you really are running out of possible intuitive commands, then by all means use the token hook to "make" new ones. At the same time, however, previously established commands should retain their original token.
I feel like this will provide a way for newer members to see less "replaced" tokens, as well as not intro'ing too much of a change for longer-time Axe users. I mean, I always just do "Math" "1" when I think "command to display ASCII," so...yeah
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It is sad to see the forum divided over one dispute.
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This being my first post since last night, I will attempt to explain what I am going to do.
I have decided that it will be too confusing to have 2 ways to say a command and it will divide the community as was seen this morning. I had no idea how controversial this was, I thought it would not be such a big deal. There are only 5 or 6 command spellings that would actually change and the rest would just be for new commands only.
That said, I will be going basically with a smooth transition to eventually make the new tokens the standard. From now on, I will be removing the [alpha]+[vars] shortcut becasue its annoying and you might accidentally forget about enabling/disabling. I already have automatic recognition working which only displays the new token name if it is part of an Axe source code. But by default, this option will be disabled and just the normal tokens will be displayed. Eventually, I will make the new tokens the default, and you will have to change the setting to display the old ones if you still want the original token names. Then, I am hoping to remove this option and just make it on by default, but only if I see that everyone has adjusted to them and there are enough computer applications and things like that that support the new token sets. Also, I will make sure the names I choose are all finalized before I do that so it doesn't change once again.
There will be a separate documentation that deals only with token names, their equivalences, how they work, how to use them, how to change the settings, etc. But I will gradually transition the doc and commands list to the new spellings as people start getting used to them. This processes will likely take more than a month becasue I want to make sure that everyone is adequately adjusted. I hate sudden changes as much as everyone else and I know exactly how that feels.
So there is no need to change the old posts. They are still valid even if they use the TI-BASIC spelling. Its really not that hard at all to figure out most of the commands are referring to (like how "conj(" and "Copy(" sound almost the same). I don't think it will be confusing at all, especially since even if they had no idea that an old command was used instead of a new one, they would go to the menu where they normally see that command in the program editor menus and realize that it does indeed have a new spelling. If they were absolutely unsure they could use the conversion chart that would come with the documentation. To think that some new coder can't figure this out on their own is completely ridiculous.
This decision is still not final, but this is what I'm leaning towards so I thought I would best let everybody know what's going on. Also, someone else brought up the point that this is still a beta. Please remember that. I could have kept the entire project a secret until 1.0.0 came out so that there would be a single universal and unchanging standard with the syntax. I decided not to do that becasue I wanted to share my progress with the community and I figured it would be useful even at its early stage. I have already gotten emails and messages telling me how much people enjoy the Parser and how it has gotten them inspired to code again and I feel my decision to release betas was well worth the downside of instability that comes with it. I'm really sorry if some of you got too used to the old spellings over the past few months, I never meant to give the impression that nothing would ever change. I am hoping it will not be too much trouble to learn the 5 or 6 new ones.
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I think that is fair. The only thing that I wanted was for you to choose one or the other, not both.
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I think the automatic token change described in your 3rd paragraph might be the best solution. When you open an Axe program in the PRGM editor (or SourceCoder/Cooliojazz editor?), I think it would be good if those tokens automatically changed, both in menus and the CATALOG.
Also, a few hours ago, SirCmpwn suggested a SMF mod that would allow us to use the Censorship feature of the forums per individual sub-forum instead of having it set global. I will use that bad word filter to change old tokens to new ones in people source code, so people won't need to fix all the old code. IMHO, those old snippets should be preserved in a as useable way as possible and preferably not requiring way too much work from their authors (or staff).
In Cooliojazz/Kerm cases, they could simply set their respective editors so when a program starts with a dot, it's parsed as an Axe program.
I also think the version/change history, including new tokens, should be included in a plain text file or in the PDF with Axe Parser releases. What I mean is the content of every post in the downloads topic (except the screenshots)
As for the forums themselves, I have taken precautions to make sure what happened this morning won't happen again in the future. I will also be taking a break from some stuff soon, too, I think. I've done way too much lately.
I am also sorry for having blown this way out of proportion. I am still trying to figure out what made me overeact this much at such thing, when I normally overeact only if somebody intentionally annoys me for a while (worse when ppl supports his action). The only thing I could find out is having burned myself out by devoting too much time on the site in many ways despite my increased real life work schedule/load, but I still wish that did not happen. I agree with the small quote located in Quigibo profile under his avatar.
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DJ, you cannot have an automatic bad-word-replace becasue then it makes it extremely confusing when talking about conversions. If somebody asks: "What is the corresponding token to "sign{"? And then you reply to their question only to have your response say "sign{" again, that could defiantly lead to more annoyances in my opinion then simply keeping the old spellings. Its impossible to tell if someone is using the token as part of Axe source code or maybe giving the token name as a suggestion, asking about the original tokens, or even giving some TI-BAISC code and asking how to convert it to Axe.
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int() (changed to sign{ )
i n t ( ) (not changed to sign{ )
people would figure it out rather quickly.
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int() (changed to sign{ )
i n t ( ) (not changed to sign{ )
people would figure it out rather quickly.
that's still kind of a pain.
Anyone who decides to program their graphing calc and to look on a forum such as this I think can figure it out for themselves. Like Quigibo said, it's a gradual transition. I think leaving the old topics the way they are is fine...
idk though, really.
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eh, i don't think it's so bad. regardless, anyone who's bothering to switch from BASIC syntax to Axe syntax definitely has enough determination to figure out how different token names work. all you need is about 2 sentences of documentation to explain the feature, how to toggle them and that there is no difference between Conj( and Copy(
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Well then I think we should just go with a small reference somewhere to help people transition. I feel at least the automatic changes in the PRGM editors will help a lot.
That said, people need to understand everyone is different, though. IN my case, for example, I have big troubles learning new stuff and getting used to changes. Because you are getting used to them easily doesn't mean everyone else will do it as easily. It would be narrow-minded to say this. But I'll drop this since it doesn't matter anyway, as the change will be happening. I wish Quigibo good luck in trying to implement automatic change in the BASIC parser. That would be very handy
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That seems like a fair solution, and, paired with forum autocorrect, should help us avoid the problem. Nice thinking, guys.
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Just my input since resent posts. I just think as a way to help the transition that when people are posting code that you just simply state whether you are including TI tokens or Axe tokens. It's not that hard to do and I think that will help eliminate some some possible confusion. If you provide two separate versions (like I will be doing) one thing you can do is just this:
That way it is just easy to tell which is which.
For those who are unaware that is accomplished by doing [code=*Insert "title" here*][/code]
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that could work, or simply state before the code (in bold, outside the code tag so it's more visible) that you use Axe tokens.
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Ya, I mean either works. I just prefer my way since I am a bit of a BBCode junkie :P But ya, the main point was that just labeling when you use which will help and when providing both sets if you just label it will help too.
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Personally, I am really against the censoring of syntax of older posts. I just don't like the idea becasue it seems like its losing a piece of Axe history. And I still hold the position that its not actually confusing since this is going to be gradual. But its not that big of a deal to me so I don't really care that much. You can still change them if you think its best.
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Well I think the consensus is that they aren't going to establish the censorship thing, I believe.
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Well, one thing that could be done is have the censor disabled by default, but I dunno if it's even possible by default, plus if the option shows up as "disable bad word filter" then it will really be misleading since the bad word filter is not even used for its original purpose. Personally I think for the forums, if possible, people should edit their important pieces of code (mostly tutorials) to include the new syntax, then everyone who are willing to help Axe programmers will just try to make sure they won't get too confused if they see old syntax somewhere. I think for the word filter, I will wait if I see many people getting confused. Plus right now I would prefer to not get involved too much into admin tasks for a while.
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I think the automatic token change described in your 3rd paragraph might be the best solution. When you open an Axe program in the PRGM editor (or SourceCoder/Cooliojazz editor?), I think it would be good if those tokens automatically changed, both in menus and the CATALOG.
Also, a few hours ago, SirCmpwn suggested a SMF mod that would allow us to use the Censorship feature of the forums per individual sub-forum instead of having it set global. I will use that bad word filter to change old tokens to new ones in people source code, so people won't need to fix all the old code. IMHO, those old snippets should be preserved in a as useable way as possible and preferably not requiring way too much work from their authors (or staff).
In Cooliojazz/Kerm cases, they could simply set their respective editors so when a program starts with a dot, it's parsed as an Axe program.
I also think the version/change history, including new tokens, should be included in a plain text file or in the PDF with Axe Parser releases. What I mean is the content of every post in the downloads topic (except the screenshots)
As for the forums themselves, I have taken precautions to make sure what happened this morning won't happen again in the future. I will also be taking a break from some stuff soon, too, I think. I've done way too much lately.
I am also sorry for having blown this way out of proportion. I am still trying to figure out what made me overeact this much at such thing, when I normally overeact only if somebody intentionally annoys me for a while (worse when ppl supports his action). The only thing I could find out is having burned myself out by devoting too much time on the site in many ways despite my increased real life work schedule/load, but I still wish that did not happen. I agree with the small quote located in Quigibo profile under his avatar.
Now you're reacting as a true forum admin again :)
To the point, in the actual Axe Parser, are you going to open support for both tokens then?
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I think you should be apologising for your previous post, though (which got you a -3 respect in one single post, btw). I wouldn,t have requested such thing, but seeing as othr people rated it down too, maybe an apology for the rudeness of the post is in order (not to mention someone warned you).
I feel the post was narrow-minded, jumping to conclusions without even bothering to know me and not understanding what people went through. Also I feel new members who haven't been around for a very long while should at least try to know the people at the place before judging them.
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I think you should be apologising for your previous post, though (which got you a -3 respect in one single post, btw). I wouldn,t have requested such thing, but seeing as othr people rated it down too, maybe an apology for the rudeness of the post is in order (not to mention someone warned you).
I feel the post was narrow-minded, jumping to conclusions without even bothering to know me and not understanding what people went through. Also I feel new members who haven't been around for a very long while should at least try to know the people at the place before judging them.
Was just about to edit my post about that,
my sincerest apology for my earlier post.
I just didn't like the fact someone using his power to express his own opinion.
But as you apoligized for it, then I will too.
Once again, sorry.
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Yeah that was a big blow up from my part. I am trying to take precautions to reduce the chances that this happens again. I was doing rather well a few weeks ago, in overall. I sometimes overeact but much less bad and usually when someone is being a jerk at me for a long while.
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Yeah that was a big blow up from my part. I am trying to take precautions to reduce the chances that this happens again. I was doing rather well a few weeks ago, in overall. I sometimes overeact but much less bad and usually when someone is being a jerk at me for a long while.
Ah I see, well, I haven't been active alot on these forums yet, so I know know very well how you make your judgement upon things your forum users say.
Anyway, I have seen the reactions from 'older' forum users, and I see they have lots of faith in you.
So maybe I should start respecting your decisions, its your forum after all :)
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What about a new Program Editor?
some ideas:
- small font
- other menüs
- editing archived programms
- some other ideas of you?
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Yet again, please be mindful of the last post date. Also, this probably should have went in the Axe feature wishlist thread. (http://www.omnimaga.org/the-axe-parser-project/features-wishlist/3300/)
Luckily for you, there is a standalone project called Zstart (http://www.omnimaga.org/ti-z80-calculator-projects/zstart-an-app-that-runs-on-ram-clears/1080/) that can do most of the things you are asking about. It also recently got a new program editor that has small fonts (though it is still in beta).
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You answered!
But yes, you are right!
There is the zStart thread...
I searched it!