Omnimaga
Calculator Community => Other Calc-Related Projects and Ideas => TI-Nspire => Topic started by: GunGodTheGreat on March 03, 2010, 08:25:11 pm
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I was wondering if you would ever be able to port the nspire cas operating system to be able to be installed on the normal nspire. If you ever could that would be awesome :)
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Now that you mention it, if both models has the same hardware, I am fairly certain it could be possible to patch the OS (or hack it, or do some other stuff) to load it on any model. The only problem, though, is that I am unsure about how stable the CAS OS would be if someone put in the 84+ keypad, since the CAS has no 84+ emulation...
Btw welcome on the forums :)
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I think I saw some GIFs of Ndless installing OS image files somewhere on one of the French forums. It seems like its possible but would run into legal issues.
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I am not sure if the patch to do it would be illegal, though, if for example it contained no code from TI products
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But TI certainly wouldn't like it, maybe enough to cause us trouble. Then they might start sending DMCA notices again (according to Brandon Wilson on UTI, TI does not like people modifying their software).
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But TI certainly wouldn't like it, maybe enough to cause us trouble. Then they might start sending DMCA notices again (according to Brandon Wilson on UTI, TI does not like people modifying their software).
It is more like replacing their software. ;)
I would be cool to have the TI-84+SE emulator to CAS calculator. It would be nice to some that want to backup stuff of TI-8x family.
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What I think is that if they sent DMCA notices, the EFF would fight back again and TI would end up epic failing again, like what happened with the keys.
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What I think is that if they sent DMCA notices, the EFF would fight back again and TI would end up epic failing again, like what happened with the keys.
TI might have some ground on this one though -- this would be stealing software that actually costs something (I know the .tnc upgrades are free, but they require the upfront cost of a more expensive calculator)
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Maybe. But I think that since they provide us with the entire OS, I suppose we can do what we want with it, except for distributing it.
Even though putting CAS on the non-CAS one might be considered stealing, I don't think TI can do much about it.
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Maybe. But I think that since they provide us with the entire OS, I suppose we can do what we want with it, except for distributing it.
Even though putting CAS on the non-CAS one might be considered stealing, I don't think TI can do much about it.
They can do things to the people who release such a hack, I think.
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I think it's a bad idea because it will make the Nspire Non-ACT. This will get TI really mad, mad enough to actually do something about this kind of dev site rather than just a halfhearted letter. If you really want CAS, just wait for the 89 emulator! It already does it just fine, and no calc modding is necessary! (besides ndless of course)
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Whether you can use it on a test has to do with the key layout, not the capabilities.
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The ACT uses capabilities to disqualify it so yeah it would affect that test but not the SAT.
Edit: yeah I had it backwards, fixed
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Whether you can use it on a test has to do with the key layout, not the capabilities.
Not in the case of the ACT (TI-89 is not allowed, despite the fact that it has no qwerty layout)
Edit:
JonimusPrime, I think you have it backwards
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Yeah, he has it backwards. CAS is allowed, as is the 89, on the SAT, but not on the ACT as it only goes to Algebra 2 for the Math section. Keyboard layout is an issue on both., although I can't really see why. Why does the key layout affect whether it's allowed or not, is what I wonder.
Anyways, I still maintain it's a bad idea, and I don't want to be sued for it! plus, I'd like for my nspire to still work for the ACT, at least for two more years. After that I don't really care, cause I'll be in college!
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Another issue is that TI loses sales if people can put a CAS OS on a regular Nspire. A TI-Nspire CAS is considerably more expensive than a regular one. Now people would be able to get the CAS software on a regular Nspire for the price of a regular Nspire software+calc, and TI would most likely get mad. Again, a TI-89 on a Nspire would not make them happy either but at least, we don't provide the ROMs, we'll just provide the emu, so they wouldn't be able to do anything to us.
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Exactly. Also, if ACT takes nspire off the list, they lose probably half their sales to 84+ sales instead. Double Anger!!!
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True x.x, well, from what I heard, if dual booting or third party OSes exists in the future for the TI-Nspire, the softwares allowing so were gonna be made so you cannot send a CAS OS to a regular Nspire, to prevent piracy and TI getting mad. People would not be allowed to distribute hacked version of such software (modified to allow a CAS OS) in public on forums, so it should probably be fine.
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Well....how does Ndless get on there then?
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Ndless is not illegal. Distributing TI OSes seems to be apparently, now, though.
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Software to install the CAS on the non-CAS is also most likely legal (after all, we are not distributing TI's files). The current agreement right now, though, seems to be to avoid financially damaging TI in order to placate them (Ndless does not make them happy).
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The thing about the keyboard layout is that the SAT and ACT define a computer as a device with a screen and a QWERTY type keyboard that can store information. Computers are not allowed, however calculators are. The reasoning is that you could copy the test down onto such a keyboard equipped device. then use the test questions at your leisure to find out the answers to take it again and cheat the test. There are a few versions of the test, but a small group of people doing this, along with a few days of analysis could result in several people getting scores that are not realistic.
Personally I think TI needs to get off their high horse about open source development. The only thing they've accomplished by encrypting their stuff in the past and present, is to make a whole generation of programmers angry and want to break in that much more. If they simply just let us program these things, and supported it, there wouldn't be this many problems.
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(Ndless does not make them happy).
I do not understand them about this part, though. Sure, it allows people to have a 89 or 83+ in their Nspire CAS/non cas, but they must own the original calc to have the ROM. If they get a ROM without owning the original calc, then it's not Ndless community problem. We provide this for legal use. We are not responsible if someone uses it illegally. It's like console emulators. They're written with 3rd party code so they're legal, as they do not contain any copyrighted content. If someone downloads ROMs online instead of dumping them off the cartridges, it's not the emulator authors problem. Plus, Ndless even attracts more customers. You could barely do anything on the Nspire in terms of coding before. People at school want to be able to do more, including playing games in some cases, to pass time. Obviously they'll hear shit about the Nspire, then go with the cheaper calcs. I myself never wanted a Nspire before. I only bought one because my TI-83+SE broke and I needed a 15 MHz calc, and the Nspire 84+ emu did the job, for me, since I used it for TI-BASIC (Illusiat 13). But had I not needed a 15 MHz calc, I would never have bought a Nspire until Ndless is out.
Heck, over here, Nspire sales went so poor that in 2008 you could get them for cheaper than a 84+SE, even if the Nspire included a 84+SE emulator. One year later, their price risen, but still remained the same as a 84+SE. Today, they're $185 at Staples over here, but it's still only $18 more than a 84+SE.
Internet-wise, did you notice the big increase in Nspire users when Ndless proof of concept were shown? UTI got a huge load of new members. Then when Ndless came out, along with the gbc emu, it became our turn. TI-BANK also got a lot of new members, IIRC.
In other words, Ndless is not going to kill TI sales.
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IIRC, some people on UTI (or TI-Bank) mentionned that since TI "declared war" by forcing to remove the 1.1 OS from websites, they could retaliate by allowing CAS to be run on the non-CAS version.
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I wasn't saying it was illegal. I was just saying it must not use the actual TI-Connect thing to link it. The same method could likely be used to put on CAS.
If the ACT people found out the NSpire could run a ti-89 they would ban it from the test, and move on. TI would freak out, but they wouldn't care.
I think the price thing is just because you guys live in export areas, where supply is Less than Demand. In the US, nspires cost a good 40 or 50 bucks more.
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I read on the Symbolic page on Detached Solutions that the ACT allows "external" CASes (but that FAQ was written in 2002). Is that still so?
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@Will wouldn't higher demand than supply actually raise prices? I think you got it backward (typo?)
@Bwang Mhmm good question, DS has been pretty dead for a while. The Symbolic authors would most likely need to be contacted if they are still around.
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I think I must have been really tired. I meant higher supply :P
ACT Doesn't allow running of any programs at all while you're testing now. I know, cause I took it last week.
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X.x
What I hate the most, though, is when the teacher blocks your 84+ with the PTT mode, then won't even bother disabling it at the end of the test. Final day of school, you return home not realizing. You turn on your calc and can't access PRGM menu until someone sends you something, but no one can. And you don't know any other way than RAM clear to disable it, so you lose your entire game progress.
Or worst: when the teacher resets your RAM before the test, or even worse, both Archive and RAM. Fortunately, on a TI-Nspire it's much harder to do so, though, since he has to remove a battery, put it back then when rebooting he needs to go through the maintenance menu (which means he needs to know the correct key combination, which isn't even gonna be the same on newer Nspires).
Over here for any test we could use our calc as much as we wanted in math, but the way test questions were written rendered every possible program unuseable. Programs gave the awnser, not the entire solution to the problem (that you were forced to write down and counted for 75% of the question score)
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Ram clear doesn't disable PTT, that's the evil thing about it. It's based on the most creepy thing in 84+ coding: certificate modification o.0
EDIT: actually, no kind of standard reset can clear a ptt.
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Really? I sure hope a full mem reset can? :O
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Nope. I think I tried that myself in the past, not sure though.
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X.x
What I hate the most, though, is when the teacher blocks your 84+ with the PTT mode, then won't even bother disabling it at the end of the test. Final day of school, you return home not realizing. You turn on your calc and can't access PRGM menu until someone sends you something, but no one can. And you don't know any other way than RAM clear to disable it, so you lose your entire game progress.
Or worst: when the teacher resets your RAM before the test, or even worse, both Archive and RAM. Fortunately, on a TI-Nspire it's much harder to do so, though, since he has to remove a battery, put it back then when rebooting he needs to go through the maintenance menu (which means he needs to know the correct key combination, which isn't even gonna be the same on newer Nspires).
Over here for any test we could use our calc as much as we wanted in math, but the way test questions were written rendered every possible program unuseable. Programs gave the awnser, not the entire solution to the problem (that you were forced to write down and counted for 75% of the question score)
Actually, I think that is what the reset button on the back of the Nspire is for -- erasing all data
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Well, for me, I tried this button, before, and my entire calc content was intact after rebooting.
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Maybe it's only for clearing the RAM in case of a crash....not surprising....Zens have the same thing, as do many other MP3 Players.....
You do know that anything in the Documents is in flash, right? The only stuff in RAM is the stuff you have open, and it is still backed up in archive when loaded.
EDIT: BTW, to get rid of the no-prog mode you can hook it to the computer. Works like a charm, and you don't actually have to send anything.
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Nice, I didn't know that x.x. I assume this is why when it crashes you don't lose anything, right?
As for the no prog mode, the issue is if someone has no link cable nor a computer x.x
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Actually, one idea I heard was making a loop connector. You could send yourself stuff, and consequently unlock the calc. just send L1
That's right.
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what do you mean by loop connector? Do you mean some special cable, or do you mean just using a Get(/Getcalc( command?
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Special Connector with the wire soldered back into the connector, rather than into another connector.
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aaaah I see, but yeah then that requires the person to be good with electronic and his hands x.x
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Plus, I don't know if that method really works. I just saw it somewhere. It could short the USB connector if you do it wrong and possibly kill the calc, or at least the USB connector.
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yeah that's one reason why I would be scared to do it myself x.x
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About the reset button on the Nspire:
-v1.1 to 1.7 : the button deleted all files from the Nspire, or if in 84+ mode, did a full reset (RAM + ROM clear)
-v2.0 and 2.0.1 : the button just reboots the calc, and if in 84+ mode, does only a RAM clear
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About the reset button on the Nspire:
-v1.1 to 1.7 : the button deleted all files from the Nspire, or if in 84+ mode, did a full reset (RAM + ROM clear)
-v2.0 and 2.0.1 : the button just reboots the calc, and if in 84+ mode, does only a RAM clear
Ooh nice, good to know. Can't wait for Ndless 2 :)
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Mhmm strange I swear I did try the button in 1.1 and lost nothing. I wonder if you need to hold it for a specific amount of time?
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Now I'm glad I updated to 2.0!
I like the Idea I can reboot the calc at any time. Is it hardware based? It would be lots easier for resetting crashed ASM programs!
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Yeah, it's hardware based, since it would be a bit stupid to make the button work only if your calc ran normally.
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Are you sure? It has to be software-based (at least to some extent) because they changed what the button did between OS versions.
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I am pretty sure it's software-based. Else, the key combination per OSes would be the same accross all calcs
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Are you sure? It has to be software-based (at least to some extent) because they changed what the button did between OS versions.
I think that what it does is that it has a specially allocated place in memory where the instructions on what to do if the reset button is pressed are stored. When the user presses the button, the hardware interupts whatever the calc was doing before and executes the reset code.
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Mhmm strange I swear I did try the button in 1.1 and lost nothing. I wonder if you need to hold it for a specific amount of time?
Me too.
On the OS 1.6 CAS when I tried the first 3D function viewer (not mine, the other one), it crashed and I pressed the reset button (I was a noob, don't care about it :p). When it turned ON, I lost the 3D viewer file, not all my stuff.
I think it only erase the RAM.
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Wow, their very own commands crashes? x.x
That tells how crappily they test their stuff before releasing it (if they even test at all)
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Wait, there's 3d available? I didn't know that! Is it a function? (Prays) I could use this in my text engine!
EDIT: Oh wait....CAS....... :'(
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Actually, the program also works on the non-CAS, but since it's written in Nspire Basic, it's awfully slow.
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Wait, there's 3d available? I didn't know that! Is it a function? (Prays) I could use this in my text engine!
EDIT: Oh wait....CAS....... :'(
Wait !
They both works on the non-CAS engine !
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=1231 (mine in french with a matrix control, It is just hard to take care of the 3D space)
http://www.nelsonsousa.pt/index.php?lang=en&cat=2&subcat=3&article=52 (the fastess, but ridicoulous limited....ashamed..)
http://ti.bank.free.fr/index.php?mod=archives&ac=voir&id=915 (just a 3D function viewer, impressive but not extensible like mine)
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Hmmm...now that we have C support it should be fairly easy to write a 3D grapher. Someone really needs to find/write some I/O functions, since a grapher would not be very useful without a way to enter the function.
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Hmmm...now that we have C support it should be fairly easy to write a 3D grapher. Someone really needs to find/write some I/O functions, since a grapher would not be very useful without a way to enter the function.
True
But... we were 4 active forums, They are only one (omnimaga) and a half (TI-Bank) and a little piece (UTI) today I think. Nspire Yaronet section is "dead" for 3 weeks (thus, no news about Ndless2)
Either all developpers (in general) are "dead", or all that developpers are creating awesome stuff without saying it to the community. Who cares ?
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There's also Cemetech, which is the second most active z80 TI forum around, but it doesn't appear to have any Nspire ASM/C users yet, nor Ndless users.
I think one major issue is the lack of OS 2.x support for Ndless and the lack of updates for Ndless 2.x. Many people don't want to keep OS 1.1. Many upgraded back because of the power management issues. There's a huge potential for developers and users, but they want to be able to do it on newer OSes.
The TI community is also not dead, altough still not as active as 3-4 years ago. The thing is that over the time, activity shifted from forums to others. Back in 2002-2004 it was all about yAronet 68K forum and the z80 one (that used to be outside yAronet). Then activity half-shifted toward TI-Gen, then later TI-BANK. Kevin Kofler kinda scared a few people away too. TI-BANK mods being very active helped a lot. MaxCoderz died because all staff are inactive, UTI is slowing down because only two are active anymore (Weregoose and Digitan) and some events last year caused some of their most active members to shift towards Omnimaga. But if we combine all of the english forums together, it looks like this year will be a 2nd activity increase in a row and TI-BANK still appears to be very strong.
Another thing is that on Omnimaga, Ndless competes daily with Axe Parser. Since most people here got either a TI-Nspire regular or both a CAS and a 8x calc, they'll choose Axe Parser over Nspire ASM/C if they're used to the easy TI-BASIC syntax.
I'm fairly certain the Nspire draws a lot of interest, still. Everytime I check the online list, many guests are viewing Ndless-related topics.
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Well, I'll give it a try later. I'm kinda busy right now, so no time for calc sends.
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I just got an idea. Notice that the regular nspire already has the solve command set, but when you type it in it brings up a text nox saying "you need CAS" Since the hooks are already there, is there a chance of hacking that one command to give us solve(?
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wow, I wouldn't be surprised if TI did that to advertise the Nspire CAS to make Nspire users buy a second calc x.x
I wonder indeed if it could be unlocked through Ndless programs
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I say the CAS OS and Non CAS OS are identical they are just configured slightly differently look at the file sizes of the OSes anyone notice that the NON CAS OS is bigger despite having a less complicated task a CAS is big an i doubt its smaller then the 84 emulator packaged with the Non CAS Nspires OS case and point the non cas nspire is the same os only crippled all we have to do is figure out how to un-cripple it which likely comes down to either a configuration file change or the modification of a few pointer and we have everything. If i had an unencrypted version of both OSes I'd find the parser and find the array of function pointers that point to the code executing the commands and start there. But that's just me.
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Also, all of the CAS features are on the non-CAS, just not listed. Even those, such as taylor(, that are no where to be found in the catalog, get the error message "CAS needed." There must be some way to "unlock" the CAS features.
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Wow that makes me even more confident that they are just code switches
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Another interesting thing is that it never "completes" the calculation. It is not really an error message, but simply a dialog box that appears. For example, if I type x+1 without having x defined, it actually "completes" the calculation, with the "answer" being "Error: Variable not defined" When using the CAS unsupported features, the dialog box appears and it goes right back to the original line, as if nothing ever happened. There could be just a line or two of code blocking the calculation from progressing.
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that said, I wonder if those commands code is really in the non-CAS os, though. They most likely used most space for the 84+ emulator instead. Is the CAS OS considerably larger in file size than the non-CAS one?
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The Nspire CAS OS are actually smaller than the non-CAS OS are, because the CAS OS doesn't have the 84+ emulator + ROM :)
I am among those who think that since TI declared war on the community, by attacking the OS versions that Ndless 1 supports, they should be hit back. Running CAS OS on the non-CAS model is probably one of the most powerful ways to do it.
The bigwigs at TI had to take into account the predictable consequences of their actions before 1) they locked down the Nspire models, 2) they used abusive DMCA takedowns against the keys' factorizations and 3) they attacked TI-Bank. Now the gloves are off, IMO.
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I personally would prefer to not host copies of the OSes (or tools made purposely to install a CAS OS on a normal Nspire) myself on the site if they ever came out, though, after what happened on TI-BANK with the other OSes. I may tolerate links to them, but not hosting them directly, in case TI would send a DMCA notice directly to 1and1 instead of myself. In links case, 1and1 wouldn't be able to do much besides maybe asking me to remove the links, because I wouldn't be hosting any illegal files.
Also it would kinda suck if schools banned Nspires due to people running CAS OSes on them, but again, on the 83+ there are apps and programs with 89 functions and schools still allow those calcs anyway (altough some teachers require a mem reset prior tests).
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I don't think space will be too much of an issue, as varying amounts of free space show that the OS actually uses the same space documents do. I'm willing to sacrifice a few MB for a solve command. How about you?
How much code does an algebra solver actually use? I've always wondered how hard it would be to write one.
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CASes are not very large at all. YACAS is ~600KB.
As for how hard it is to write one, it strongly depends on how many features you want.
*Expansion is relatively easy.
*Equation solving greatly varies depending on what equations you want to solve (easy to solve polynomials, hard to solve stuff like sqrt(x) + sqrt(x+1) = sqrt(x+2)).
*Differentiation is not too bad.
*Algebraic simplification varies depending on how powerful you want the simplifier to be.
*Symbolic matrices are easy once you have everything else done.
*Rational integration is doable (I had one in Nspire BASIC).
*Algebraic integration is very, very, very hard. The description of the algorithm fills a large chapter in a textbook, and even then is tricky to understand.
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Good to know. Perhaps we could port an open source CAS like octave. Depending on the power required, perhaps we could make a z80 version!
Haha, that would really mess with TI's view on assembly. TI-84+s and 83+s able to solve algebra. Granted, it could take quite a while for some problems to calculate, but it's the idea that counts.
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True, altough it's them who decided to leave their old calcs open to ASM lol. They should have known in 1999 that leaving their 83+ open to ASM would allow people to write CAS softwares for them (even if not necessarly complete)
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Octave is not a CAS. We might be able to port XCAS or YACAS to the Nspire; I doubt we could do Maxima because its a rather large program (>32 MB, so the unmodified version won't even fit on the Nspire).
XCAS, in particular, has a stand-alone computation kernel called GIAC written in C++. Does anyone know whether C++ programs work on the Nspire?
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Well, the solve( command is all one would need to cheat on the ACT, but I suppose that's not really the goal.
I'm just thinking: the 92 takes about a second for the quadratic formula. How long would that translate to in the 83+s mere 6 mhz?
C works on the NSpire, but not C++. A port wouldn't be quite as easy due to changes from C to C++, but still very possible. Definitely much easier than, say, asm to Axe parser, as the languages are very similar in structure.
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Well, the solve( command is all one would need to cheat on the ACT, but I suppose that's not really the goal.
I'm just thinking: the 92 takes about a second for the quadratic formula. How long would that translate to in the 83+s mere 6 mhz?
C works on the NSpire, but not C++. A port wouldn't be quite as easy due to changes from C to C++, but still very possible. Definitely much easier than, say, asm to Axe parser, as the languages are very similar in structure.
What is it about C++ that wouldn't work on Nspire? I'm pretty sure it would work.
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The only reason I can think of is that we're missing most of the standard library right now, and the OS might not have the entry points for the C++ functions.
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Is there enough of a difference to bother with it? We could just write the extra commands into a header or library so it feels like you're using C++ when you're using C. What commands are different, anyways? I've used C a little, but I've never actually tried C++
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C++ is an object-oriented language.
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What exactly comprises the "object" part of that though? Is it variables, functions, commands? i never really understood that quote.
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Classes. Essentially, a data-type sort of thing with its own data and methods.