Author Topic: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!  (Read 10599 times)

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Offline FinaleTI

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2010, 11:20:53 am »
Well, right now I'm pretty sure the compiling is just in the test stages, so why would you want to wait 10 minutes to sign a potentially bad app on calc, without even knowing if compiling works successfully?

Plus, the point of the this closed beta is to make sure compiling works. Once it works, I'm sure Quigibo will provide a way to sign apps.


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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2010, 11:22:18 am »
From what I could read somewhere, I am not sure if he is gonna add such feature right away, because it's gonna take like 10-15 minutes to sign and not a lot of people will probably want to wait this long for an app to sign. I think in later versions, it might be a good idea to implement, though, in case. Just make sure that the option needs to be selected everytime you choose to compile in APP format and that if you selected it, it forces you to confirm your choice, in case you accidentally selected it.
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Offline Galandros

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 11:59:56 am »
I am sure oncalc apps signing will display first a warning and prompt for confirmation. Most people do not know the details about APPS.

APPS would be primarily used on large projects and will be harder to debug because of having to use an emulator or resigning the apps each time you recompile the source.

Good luck to you.
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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 12:08:38 pm »
Btw, if you have too much data in your program and the total code+data is over 16 KB compiled, will it just put the data on a second page?
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Offline yoman82

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2010, 12:12:46 pm »
I'm not saying it'll be fun, I'm just saying it'll be beneficial for people like me who can go days without seeing a computer.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2010, 12:16:09 pm »
ah yeah I guess you have a point.
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2010, 12:19:03 pm »
Btw, if you have too much data in your program and the total code+data is over 16 KB compiled, will it just put the data on a second page?
I don't think so, because multi-page apps cause headaches even for ASM programmers. We have to figure out how we're going to read data from the other pages, since they aren't mapped into memory at the same time. It would complicate things a lot.
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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2010, 12:19:52 pm »
Well you don't have to sign an app to play it on your own calculator. The only time you do, from what I understand, is when you want to distribute it to other calculators. Which I think what Quigibo's logic is since you have to upload to a computer to distribute it you can just sign it in seconds on the computer instead of waiting ten minutes for the calculator.
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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2010, 12:21:35 pm »
Btw, if you have too much data in your program and the total code+data is over 16 KB compiled, will it just put the data on a second page?
I don't think so, because multi-page apps cause headaches even for ASM programmers. We have to figure out how we're going to read data from the other pages, since they aren't mapped into memory at the same time. It would complicate things a lot.
Ouch, ok x.x. I guess data will need to remain in appvar/program format then x.x

Also in APP form, will the game requires as much RAM as an ASM 8xp file? Would we be able for example to run an Axe app containing 15 KB of code and have a game appvar unarchived taking like 22 KB of RAM?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 12:21:56 pm by DJ Omnimaga »
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2010, 12:23:57 pm »
Btw, if you have too much data in your program and the total code+data is over 16 KB compiled, will it just put the data on a second page?
I don't think so, because multi-page apps cause headaches even for ASM programmers. We have to figure out how we're going to read data from the other pages, since they aren't mapped into memory at the same time. It would complicate things a lot.
Ouch, ok x.x. I guess data will need to remain in appvar/program format then x.x

Also in APP form, will the game requires as much RAM as an ASM 8xp file? Would we be able for example to run an Axe app containing 15 KB of code and have a game appvar unarchived taking like 22 KB of RAM?
I think that would be possible, yes. APPs don't take up any user RAM when executing.
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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2010, 12:25:49 pm »
That would be cool. Code is read from archive, right?
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Offline Quigibo

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2010, 12:29:07 pm »
To answer some questions:

An unsigned app runs fine on the calculator.  It does not need to be signed to use, only to transfer.

In order to compile the app, a copy of the executable is created in RAM first and then turned into an app at the end of compiling.  This is becasue the ROM can not be modified without erasing the whole thing (or most of it) becasue that's just how flash works.  So you're still limited by the roughly 24kb limit of free ram which is okay since the apps are only 16kb.  They will not be 2 page apps becasue 1) there is not enough ram on the calculator to compile such a large program and 2) I currently don't have any commands that handle page swapping.

A check is done on your battery level before writing to flash and there is a warning not to remove the power while it saves just like the game boys used to do.  Writing to flash is a little slow, it takes about an extra second per kilobyte I'd say on a 15MHz calc, but that's not so bad.

There are actually a lot of details about apps that change.  Fortunately I take care of most of them automatically so you won't even be aware of them:
  • You can't display strings using the bcall since they need to be in ram (I changed the routine so it works)
  • Apps have to be exited a special way (the entire program is actually one big subroutine so you can exit normally)
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Offline calc84maniac

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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2010, 12:31:45 pm »
That would be cool. Code is read from archive, right?
That is correct.
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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2010, 12:38:53 pm »
Ok good. I was worried it was copied into RAM somewhere during execution, which would have made it very hard to run games with large amount of data (more appvars to archive/unarchive during loading sequences, depending of which you need)

@Quigibo, in future versions, do you plan any syntax changes that are specific to APP format? Or will the Axe source remain the exact same between both 8xp and 8xk files?
In case you are wondering where I went, I left Omni back in 2015 to form CodeWalrus due to various reasons explained back then, but I stopped calc dev in 2016 and am now mostly active on the CW Discord server at https://discord.gg/cuZcfcF


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Re: Calling Brave Axe Warriors!
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2010, 12:45:38 pm »
I doubt there would be any syntax changes, unless I support page swapping which might complicate things a bit, but I don't plan to.  As I said before, most of the differences are corrected behind the scenes so the transition should be as simple as possible.
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