Author Topic: End-game experience levels  (Read 3759 times)

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Offline Zera

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End-game experience levels
« on: March 04, 2010, 01:54:09 pm »
I was recently replaying Final Fantasy Legend III for GameBoy, and one thing that struck me as odd is how your party appears to be at a low level toward the end of the game. In preparation for the final battle, you only need to be level 35-40. Trying to grind beyond that point is time-consuming, as the enemies you encounter in this area give you the most experience out of any enemy in the game -- which isn't a lot. Most character statistics seem to max-out around level 50 or so, but you can apparently level as high as 99. My question is: What is the incentive? Why even permit the player to raise their level to such extremes when both: A) It's not necessary, and B) There is nothing left to challenge you. (such as an optional super boss) This is something that irks me about some RPGs, as I tend to be a perfectionist. I just have to complete everything, raise every character to max level, etc. before I can be done with the game.

I did some more research and experimentation, and as it turns out, your statistics actually increase beyond the max values that are displayed on the status screen. Character HP and MP are indicated as high as 999, while base statistics are indicated as high as 99. After raising my level to 70 and taking substantial damage from enemies, I noticed my HP wasn't decreasing. Apparently, it's somewhere around 2,000 at this point. I'm guessing there's a global 16-bit integer for both character and enemy HP / MP, and an 8-bit integer for base statistics.

I've noticed other RPGs will have similar leveling patterns. The party might be around level 50 by the end of the game, but there is no incentive to push yourself any further than that; and trying to do so would require a ridiculous amount of grinding. Makes you wonder why the developers didn't just cap the experience level max at a lower number. At least the player could feel like they've accomplished something by hitting the maximum. :P

Oh, well. Guess I'll have to set my emulation speed to +1,000% and auto-battle everything in sight. I may reach level 99... eventually.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2010, 04:10:10 pm »
Yeah I noticed in old games, despite the lack of optional battles that are challenging enough, you can still rise your levels to extreme extent. In Final Fantasy IV on the Playstation 1 (which happens to be the hard version originally released only in Japan), I can beat the final boss at LV 65-ish and one of my character isn't even LV 60. In Secret Of Mana for the SNES, one of my favourite games, I found the final battle easy at like LV 45-50. In Chrono Trigger, the first time you go through the game you are just around LV 40-50.

When designing calc RPGs, if the experience level could rise much higher than required for final battle, I made sure there are more challenging things to do somewhere in the game.

As for HP being higher than 9999, I never actually noticed it staying at 9999 when taking damage in any game I tried. I think it migth have been something specific to the game you tried. In Final Fantasy 6, I can manage to get at 9999 HP before LV 99, and at LV 99 even if I have been at 9999 for a while, I'll just have 9999 HP, not more.
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Offline Zera

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2010, 04:17:34 pm »
This is one of the reasons why I opted to exclude experience levels from Escheron. You freely develop on your characters at your own leisure, as opposed to grinding for minuscule amounts of experience points. There are a few barriers in place to prevent characters from benefitting from much weaker enemies, once their statistics reach higher values. That, and the scope of the game is just too small to have an experience table. I doubt the player is going to engage in that many random battles throughout the course of the game.

Offline ztrumpet

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 05:14:00 pm »
I have experienced this once:  When I beat FFTOM2 (calc RPG), both of my characters were around level 25, while the max is 50.  I thought the final battle was really easy too.  :)

Illusiat 13 and Escheron will both be awesome because you two know for sure that this should not happen, and I applaud you for that.  Great concept! :D

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2010, 09:11:29 pm »
Nice Zera :)

And Ztrumpet, keep in mind FFTOM2 experience level system is fucked up, though. At level 50, you loop back at LV 1 but keep your stats. In chapter 1 through 4 there's a glitch causing all stats to become negative if you reach LV 50, causing your save file to break and have to restart from beginning

The final battle in this game was also story-driven. it was made purposely so you cannot lose. I wouldn't be surprised if you figured out a way to lose (which would require 99999 turns, I think), that the storyline continued as if you won
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Offline ztrumpet

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 06:45:36 am »
And Ztrumpet, keep in mind FFTOM2 experience level system is fucked up, though. At level 50, you loop back at LV 1 but keep your stats. In chapter 1 through 4 there's a glitch causing all stats to become negative if you reach LV 50, causing your save file to break and have to restart from beginning

The final battle in this game was also story-driven. it was made purposely so you cannot lose. I wouldn't be surprised if you figured out a way to lose (which would require 99999 turns, I think), that the storyline continued as if you won
I'm pretty sure this was my first time through the levels, but I may have been at 30 - 35.  I don't remember exactly.

Ah, so that's why the final boss was so easy.  Cool! :D
Thanks for the info. :)

Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: End-game experience levels
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 02:11:04 pm »
Btw, here's a few approximate max levels I achieved in some of my own games upon finishing them without overly grinding and trying to do side quests, followed with the game max level:

Illusiat 3: 64, max 99
Illusiat 4: 80, max 99
Illusiat 6: 65, max 99
Illusiat 7: ATK=50, DEF=35, MAG=50, SPD=35. Max 50-50-50-50
Illusiat 8: 99, max 99
Illusiat 9: 99, max 99
Illusiat 11: 85, max 99
Illusiat 12: 210, max 255
The Reign Of Legends: 75-75-75, max 99 for all
The Reign of Legends 2: 70-60-60 & 65-60-60. Max 99 for all 9 characters (altough 2 are impossible to keep until game ends and I did not pick back Kyra so I just had 6, and posted the levels of my two partys used in the final dungeon. Yes the final dungeon requires two partys and you swap between then with the (-) key)
Reuben Quest: Ev Awakening: 13. I forgot the max x.x, but it should be 15 or 20.
Reuben Quest: The Lost Mirror: same

Optional battles requiring higher LV than final boss:

Illusiat 3: The entire game. You can go straight to final boss without even finishing any dungeon. You stand no chance under LV 64, though.
Illusiat 4: Super version of final boss. After installing the warp gate, entering a house in village 2 will trigger an event that boost the final boss from LV 40 to 80. LV 99 is required to beat him, else he does way too much damage
Illusiat 6: Battle arena. Has a LV 99 enemy and survival mode forces you to fight 100 enemies from LV 1 to 100. Even at LV 99 it's near impossible to beat that LV 100 enemy.
Illusiat 8: Secret battle in final dungeon somewhere. Boss requires LV 99 to be defeated. Spending your entire stat bonuses gotten after every level in just ATK or just MAG is recommended.
Illusiat 9: Extremly hard to locate boss in forest in final chapter. I don't think it required LV 99, but because it's so easy to grind near the end of this game, I got to LV 99 anyway.
Illusiat 11: Legend Weapon boss fight. Even at LV 99, the fight is near impossible and pretty much luck-based.
Illusiat 12: Boss near the final battle area that requires at least LV 235 to be defeated and another more to the north in final dungeon that requires a similar LV.
Reign Of Legends: Tomb boss fight. IIRC under LV 85 it was near impossible, especially that there are two fights in a row.
Reign Of Legends 2: Totem battle (2nd part of the game), requires LV 99. Saving Kyra quest boss fight, requires LV 85-90 IIRC
Reuben Quest: Very rare random encounter in mountain, requires maxed out LV.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 02:26:14 pm by DJ Omnimaga »
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