Author Topic: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?  (Read 8354 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HybridFox

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Rating: +2/-0
  • Species: Fox
    • View Profile
Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« on: November 07, 2013, 03:36:32 pm »
So u have these games that use a "greyscale" but the game just makes the pixels from the screen go on and off really quickly, and i think that is it not so great for your screen...
so is it really bad? or is it just taboo?
http://furrypoll.com/2013/

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55942
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 04:45:04 pm »
If they were dangerous, I think we would have discovered it long ago and there would have been no more grayscale game since 2005 or so.

The only issue is that they drain batteries twice faster, especially ASM games with nearly perfect grayscale.

Offline ben_g

  • Hey cool I can set a custom title now :)
  • LV9 Veteran (Next: 1337)
  • *********
  • Posts: 1002
  • Rating: +125/-4
  • Asm noob
    • View Profile
    • Our programmer's team: GameCommandoSquad
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 04:47:03 pm »
Greyscale is not bad for the screen.
The things that are bad for the ti-84+ screen are:
 - blue lines of death (a.k.a. "test mode"): one or multiple blue horizontal lines on the screen. This can destroy the LCD if left on for too long (a minute or so), so pull a battery as fast as you can when this happens.
 - leaving it on for too long: as with all screens, leaving the LCD on for too long (here, too long means a day or more) with the same image on it will "burn it in", which basically means that some spots will be darker than others (even when the screen is turned off).
 - turning pixels on and off perfectly in sync with the display driver: while this is very uncommon, this can be damaging to your screen (not nearly as bad as blue lines of death, but it's still best to avoid). If this is happening, some pixels wil be lighter than normal white pixels, and others will be darker than black pixels. (EDIT: this)

The only issue is that they drain batteries twice faster, especially ASM games with nearly perfect grayscale.
Does grayscale really use more battery power? I thought that most games (running at the same CPU speed) drain the battery equally because most of them use 100% CPU (meaning they never put the processor in halt/low power mode).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:01:16 pm by ben_g »
My projects
 - The Lost Survivors (Unreal Engine) ACTIVE [GameCommandoSquad main project]
 - Oxo, with single-calc multiplayer and AI (axe) RELEASED (screenshot) (topic)
 - An android version of oxo (java)  ACTIVE
 - A 3D collision detection library (axe) RELEASED! (topic)(screenshot)(more recent screenshot)(screenshot of it being used in a tilemapper)
Spoiler For inactive:
- A first person shooter with a polygon-based 3d engine. (z80, will probably be recoded in axe using GLib) ON HOLD (screenshot)
 - A java MORPG. (pc) DEEP COMA(read more)(screenshot)
 - a minecraft game in axe DEAD (source code available)
 - a 3D racing game (axe) ON HOLD (outdated screenshot of asm version)

This signature was last updated on 20/04/2015 and may be outdated

Offline willrandship

  • Omnimagus of the Multi-Base.
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2953
  • Rating: +98/-13
  • Insert sugar to begin programming subroutine.
    • View Profile
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2013, 05:35:45 pm »
As far as the LCD goes, all that's happening is that the voltage on a pixel wavers in a mid-range, instead of being full power. LCDs do not mind being treated as such, and have a wide range of safe voltages to operate at. The contrast adjust uses this to its advantage.

The "test mode" overvolts the LCD, which will harm it.

@ben_g some instructions use more power than others, due to their increased physical complexity. The constant RAM writes caused by greyscale use a great deal more power than RAM reads and internal arithmetic. The most efficient instruction as power/cycle would be NOP.

Offline thepenguin77

  • z80 Assembly Master
  • LV10 31337 u53r (Next: 2000)
  • **********
  • Posts: 1594
  • Rating: +823/-5
  • The game in my avatar is bit.ly/p0zPWu
    • View Profile
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2013, 05:37:42 pm »
- turning pixels on and off perfectly in sync with the display driver: while this is very uncommon, this can be damaging to your screen (not nearly as bad as blue lines of death, but it's still best to avoid). If this is happening, some pixels wil be lighter than normal white pixels, and others will be darker than black pixels.

What? (I'm confused as to how this is bad, maybe I don't understand what you were saying)

Quote
The only issue is that they drain batteries twice faster, especially ASM games with nearly perfect grayscale.
Does grayscale really use more battery power? I thought that most games (running at the same CPU speed) drain the battery equally because most of them use 100% CPU (meaning they never put the processor in halt/low power mode).

(This might be wrong) Grayscale does not use more power. You are right, considering most games don't halt the CPU, the power usage is directly proportional to the CPU speed and there are only 2 CPU speeds.


The reason grayscale doesn't damage the screen is because although to you it looks weird, to the LCD, nothing has changed. The screen is updated 60 times per second no matter what. This is done by the LCD driver which exists physically outside of the CPU. The LCD driver goes through the screen row by row and sets each pixel. That means that the driver is sending ON/OFF signals at around 4,000 signals per second. Simply changing whether or not the driver sends a 1 or a 0 between updates doesn't really change anything because it doesn't remember what it sent last go around. (By this logic, the most physically demanding operation for the driver would be a checkerboard.)

Now, if you actually want to damage the screen, instead of using grayscale, you use bluescale. This was a sort of horrible idea that we played around with for a little while but for the most part, a consensus was drawn to not use it because it actually did cause physical damage to the screen. Unlike grayscale which simply toggles the pixels (which the LCD is designed to do obviously which is why it doesn't cause damage) bluescale rapidly changed the contrast. This resulted in some pretty crazy stuff, but, running these programs for too long would permanently damage your screen.


Edit:
   Willrandship: has anyone tested that, I'm actually kind of interested now
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 05:44:39 pm by thepenguin77 »
zStart v1.3.013 9-20-2013 
All of my utilities
TI-Connect Help
You can build a statue out of either 1'x1' blocks or 12'x12' blocks. The 1'x1' blocks will take a lot longer, but the final product is worth it.
       -Runer112

Offline Runer112

  • Moderator
  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2289
  • Rating: +639/-31
    • View Profile
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 05:44:23 pm »
Properly dithered grayscale should be fine. However, flashing large areas of the screen on and off together near the LCD's refresh rate is not fine. It may look interesting, but don't do it.

Offline ben_g

  • Hey cool I can set a custom title now :)
  • LV9 Veteran (Next: 1337)
  • *********
  • Posts: 1002
  • Rating: +125/-4
  • Asm noob
    • View Profile
    • Our programmer's team: GameCommandoSquad
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 05:57:14 pm »
- turning pixels on and off perfectly in sync with the display driver: while this is very uncommon, this can be damaging to your screen (not nearly as bad as blue lines of death, but it's still best to avoid). If this is happening, some pixels wil be lighter than normal white pixels, and others will be darker than black pixels.

What? (I'm confused as to how this is bad, maybe I don't understand what you were saying)
...
I meant what Runer said as the thing that looked interesting:
... However, flashing large areas of the screen on and off together near the LCD's refresh rate is not fine. It may look interesting, but don't do it.
My projects
 - The Lost Survivors (Unreal Engine) ACTIVE [GameCommandoSquad main project]
 - Oxo, with single-calc multiplayer and AI (axe) RELEASED (screenshot) (topic)
 - An android version of oxo (java)  ACTIVE
 - A 3D collision detection library (axe) RELEASED! (topic)(screenshot)(more recent screenshot)(screenshot of it being used in a tilemapper)
Spoiler For inactive:
- A first person shooter with a polygon-based 3d engine. (z80, will probably be recoded in axe using GLib) ON HOLD (screenshot)
 - A java MORPG. (pc) DEEP COMA(read more)(screenshot)
 - a minecraft game in axe DEAD (source code available)
 - a 3D racing game (axe) ON HOLD (outdated screenshot of asm version)

This signature was last updated on 20/04/2015 and may be outdated

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55942
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Re: Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 05:57:59 pm »
Greyscale is not bad for the screen.
The things that are bad for the ti-84+ screen are:
 - blue lines of death (a.k.a. "test mode"): one or multiple blue horizontal lines on the screen. This can destroy the LCD if left on for too long (a minute or so), so pull a battery as fast as you can when this happens.
 - leaving it on for too long: as with all screens, leaving the LCD on for too long (here, too long means a day or more) with the same image on it will "burn it in", which basically means that some spots will be darker than others (even when the screen is turned off).
 - turning pixels on and off perfectly in sync with the display driver: while this is very uncommon, this can be damaging to your screen (not nearly as bad as blue lines of death, but it's still best to avoid). If this is happening, some pixels wil be lighter than normal white pixels, and others will be darker than black pixels.

The only issue is that they drain batteries twice faster, especially ASM games with nearly perfect grayscale.
Does grayscale really use more battery power? I thought that most games (running at the same CPU speed) drain the battery equally because most of them use 100% CPU (meaning they never put the processor in halt/low power mode).
I noticed that Desolate and Reuben Quest series drained batteries faster than other non ROL1/2 games.

Offline HybridFox

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Rating: +2/-0
  • Species: Fox
    • View Profile
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2013, 12:37:43 am »
Okay, so it's not problem as far as i can understand c:

btw, what are those "blue lines of death"?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 12:39:23 am by HybridFox »
http://furrypoll.com/2013/

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline DJ Omnimaga

  • Clacualters are teh gr33t
  • CoT Emeritus
  • LV15 Omnimagician (Next: --)
  • *
  • Posts: 55942
  • Rating: +3154/-232
  • CodeWalrus founder & retired Omnimaga founder
    • View Profile
    • Dream of Omnimaga Music
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2013, 12:44:29 am »
It's a mode in which the calc can be unintentionally placed if your calculator crashes (possible in some occasions if you run outdated or buggy software), where the monochrome calculator screens can have blue lines of pixels or even entirely turn blue in some cases. The LCD gets overpowered, which is why if you leave it in that state for too long, it can damage it.

Normally, though, you should be fine. Make sure to remove a battery within the first 10-15 seconds then put it back in. A RAM clear (in most cases) will occur and in all cases your screen will be fine again.

I wonder if the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition has such mode?

Offline Keoni29

  • LV11 Super Veteran (Next: 3000)
  • ***********
  • Posts: 2466
  • Rating: +291/-16
    • View Profile
    • My electronics projects at 8times8
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 03:01:42 am »
People have used this mode in combination with changing contrast rapidly to generate bluescale :P That was really bad for calculators.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 03:02:12 am by Keoni29 »
If you like my work: why not give me an internet?








Offline HybridFox

  • LV2 Member (Next: 40)
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Rating: +2/-0
  • Species: Fox
    • View Profile
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 04:33:09 am »
People have used this mode in combination with changing contrast rapidly to generate bluescale :P That was really bad for calculators.

Ye, i don't think that was the best xD
http://furrypoll.com/2013/

Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.

Offline aeTIos

  • Nonbinary computing specialist
  • LV12 Extreme Poster (Next: 5000)
  • ************
  • Posts: 3915
  • Rating: +184/-32
    • View Profile
    • wank.party
Re: Greyscale bad for TI-84 plus/se screen?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 02:22:36 am »
It results in some pretty crazy looking effects, though... iirc I have used it in one of my experimental, never released concept game things. Don't try it yourself tho unless you are willing to risk your screen (which you don't, judging from your initial question)
If anyone wants, I could make a little vid showing the effect :P
I'm not a nerd but I pretend: