Author Topic: Language wars (SOLVED, split from nDealOrNoDeal thread)  (Read 3906 times)

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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Language wars (SOLVED, split from nDealOrNoDeal thread)
« on: November 21, 2013, 09:47:00 am »
*sigh*

Looks like a new website has jumped the language wars bandwaggon now (although it's not really the first time it happens, since Axe was criticized several times there too):
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13427&p=152729#p152729
nDealOrNoDeal is getting bashed for using Ndless instead of Lua. Although I can understand the reasons, isn't the choice of a language for a game the author's choice that isn't being respected in there?

One thing for sure, TI-Planet has lost an user (and possibly an entire author profile) until this stops, because I will never ever supports a website that advocates deliberate langage wars that only divides the TI community.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 01:34:28 am by DJ Omnimaga »

Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 11:12:45 am »
DJ, how about you stop polluting topics and spouting nonsense about language wars ? As he tried to explain you (but you won't listen) critor's post wasn't aimed at creating a war.
If anything, the one who created division and war in the topic was you, by having a stupid interpretation of what was written.
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Offline critor

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 11:19:22 am »
I've been attacked publicly by DJ_O in this topic, I have the right to answer publicly.
This is out of topic, I know.

*sigh*

Looks like a new website has jumped the language wars bandwaggon now (although it's not really the first time it happens, since Axe was criticized several times there too):
http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13427&p=152729#p152729
nDealOrNoDeal is getting bashed for using Ndless instead of Lua.

Stop slandering DJ_O, please.
I did a news to praise this program.

You replied by stating facts which don't even exist in the news which hasn't been edited.

You should apologize immediately and stop imagining things. It's not too late...



Although I can understand the reasons, isn't the choice of a language for a game the author's choice that isn't being respected in there?

You just imagine misrespect.

One thing for sure, TI-Planet has lost an user (and possibly an entire author profile) until this stops, because I will never ever supports a website that advocates deliberate langage wars that only divides the TI community.
*CALM DOWN, PLEASE*
I've never done anything like that.
You can quit it's your choice. But this is out of topic here.
STOP, PLEASE STOP.

You made an error by misunderstanding me, imagining things and overreacting, just admit it instead of risking to split the TI community.


Calm down a little and see how stupid you've been: you're implying that I, Xavier (Critor) Andréani would fight Ndless programming ?
Do I have to remind you about nsNandMgr or nDoom (which includes an Omnimaga logo) ? about mViewer? nCleaner? nTNOC? nsBootEditor?...
They are all Ndless programs.

Please come back to Earth and stop trying to start useless and destructive wars.

After knowing me for years, you should have been able to think a little and understand that either I did misphrase something in the news, either you did misunderstand something in the news (or maybe both).


And for your information, I've never said anything against Axe.


To modo/admins:
We are Omnimaga partner and have contributed to many news.
We wouldn't understand that such a post attacking us with fake facts remains on Omnimaga.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:30:12 am by critor »
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 11:29:40 am »
To be clearer than the last paragraph of critor's post: admins, make DJ_O cool down, or face reduced newsing activity by critor & Adriweb (and thereby reduced activity of your entire board). Lower activity due to a single person out of his mind is the last thing the community needs, needless to say.
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Offline critor

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2013, 11:34:11 am »
I didn't really meant it like this.
(cause and consequence are inverted)

I've done much for Omnimaga for years (maybe less years than DJ_O, this is not the question).

So to me, it's totally anormal for such a post to remain here.

Offline Juju

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2013, 11:37:58 am »
I know Critor said something that sparked controversy. I think attacking each other because of that won't solve the problem, you guys will go overboard and we definitely don't need this.

I want excuses to each other, if you don't mind.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:39:22 am by Juju »

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Offline critor

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2013, 11:43:39 am »
To replace things into context, at the end of the news in which I did praise the game, I've said 2-3 lines with something like this:
"It's sad that many TI-Nspire CX owners (HW-J/K) can't benefit from such a program. To me, Ndless was not necessary for such a user interface and Lua would have been a great alternative"

I've never intended to spark any controversy and I'd like to apologize for this.

But I can see nothing wrong in that sentence. This is not an attack against the author (who made a great work) - it's just my personal advice.
So I'd like to be explained how that sentence is wrong, or I'll probably be able to post similar sentences in the future.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:44:21 am by critor »
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Offline Adriweb

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 11:47:35 am »
Seems to me that at first, a small sentence that might have been misunderstood snowballed and created a whole big bad thing.
Critor's "apology" for maybe having written something not 100% crystal clear for some readers (going as far as controversy-sparkling, even, for some :o) is something kind of him (I myself wasn't shocked by his sentence, I know what he meant), so the least that would be expected from DJ is then his apology, I guess, as Juju said.

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« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 11:48:46 am by adriweb »
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Offline Juju

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2013, 11:55:33 am »
I think I can explain. The original wording in French was kinda weird ("On pourra toutefois regretter qu'il s'agisse d'un jeu Ndless, et que donc les possesseurs des nouvelles TI-Nspire CX en révision matérielle J ou ultérieure achetées depuis la rentrée 2013 ne puissent pas en profiter. Même si je reconnais volontiers l'excellent travail graphique, j'ai du mal à voir ce que Ndless apporte par rapport au Lua pour ce type de jeu." / "We may, however, regret it's a Ndless game, and therefore the owners of the new TI-Nspire CX hardware revision J or later purchased since September 2013 won't enjoy it. While I readily acknowledge the excellent graphic work, I find it hard to see what Ndless brings compared to Lua for this type of game" (EDIT: added a more accurate translation with original wording intact)), you can easily take stuff out of context and make you say you hate Ndless fir that type of game. Even then, you seem you would had liked this game be written in Lua over Ndless (even tho you explain it's because you can't play it on hardware J and K), which can easily spark a language war.

In short, it suggests you encourage Lua over Ndless because it support hardware J/K, which is not quite something you might want to say. You should encourage both of them equally (unless it's a tip for someone who begins programming, in case you'll suggest Lua, but you won't want to suggest the other language for a released program.) And keep in mind not everyone have hardware J/K calcs and if someone wants Ndless, you can easily avoid them by buying second hand.

Hope you'll understand. It is our goal here on Omnimaga to avoid any language war. ^_^
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 12:09:20 pm by Juju »

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Offline mdr1

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 12:08:00 pm »
you can easily take stuff out of context and make you say you hate Ndless.
You forgot "pour ce type de jeu". ;)

Offline Juju

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 12:11:20 pm »
you can easily take stuff out of context and make you say you hate Ndless.
You forgot "pour ce type de jeu". ;)
"For that type of game", yes, but still, it still makes him sound bad for the reasons I explained, which still applies.

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Offline Hayleia

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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 12:12:29 pm »
But the "toutefois" word shows that Critor is not bashing the game, but saying "everything is awesome except that little thing".

And keep in mind not everyone have hardware J/K calcs and if someone wants Ndless, you can easily avoid them by buying second hand.
But that is becaus you know it, but not everyone knows that. A lot of people on TI Planet are asking "how do I downgrade from 3.2.4" and answer J when we ask "what is your hardware revision ?", because they weren't aware of all those protections.

Also, as mentionned mdr1, Critor doesn't hate Ndless (or he would have done mViewer in TI Basic), but just said that a non ressource-expensive game couls have been done in Lua, even though it would have been a lot slower to load with all those graphics, a lot bigger in size, and possibly not fun to code for AJOrians if he prefers coding in C over Lua. So it was just a "could have been possible to", not a "should never have happened".
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Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 12:18:11 pm »
But the "toutefois" word shows that Critor is not bashing the game, but saying "everything is awesome except that little thing".

And keep in mind not everyone have hardware J/K calcs and if someone wants Ndless, you can easily avoid them by buying second hand.
But that is becaus you know it, but not everyone knows that. A lot of people on TI Planet are asking "how do I downgrade from 3.2.4" and answer J when we ask "what is your hardware revision ?", because they weren't aware of all those protections.
You can avoid it if you know that and you're planning in advance, but yes it seems many people don't. Worse, many of those calcs have been bought by parents who aren't even aware Ndless exists. Also, it's common to research about the calc after the calc has been bought.

Also, as mentionned mdr1, Critor doesn't hate Ndless (or he would have done mViewer in TI Basic), but just said that a non ressource-expensive game couls have been done in Lua, even though it would have been a lot slower to load with all those graphics, a lot bigger in size, and possibly not fun to code for AJOrians if he prefers coding in C over Lua. So it was just a "could have been possible to", not a "should never have happened".
If you take this out of context (which was one of my points), it might make you think so. But yeah, I see his point it might be less overhead to write it in Lua, but AJOrians probably preferred Ndless over Lua for personal reasons and you can't really make him change. Or at least, it's not really polite. Everything is possible in both languages, either in C or in Lua, after all.

Note: This topic has been split. Please keep discussion about the updates on the other thread and the arguments here.
Note 2: Eeems locked this topic, unless someone have something important to say. Critor said he's sorry, and him and he admins deems this dispute over.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 12:46:26 pm by Juju »

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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Re: nDealOrNoDeal for Nspire - The Language War
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 07:03:06 pm »
Thanks to whoever temporarily unlocked the topic so I can reply back.

Knowing that critor and a few other people here (mainly the older staff) are well aware of my situation, the fact still remains that the consequences of my actions remain the same no matter the issues I might have and I have to assume those consequences (for example, if my behavior went too far and I needed a ban). Just know that expecting a change from my part is a lost cause from the start, for the reason that I already explained to many people in private long ago. I tried for over 20 years to improve my self-control problems and saw specialists for it, but after what happened in December 2010, where I came very short of doing the same thing Tribal did, it finally became clear that I would have to live with my problem for the rest of my life (as well as the consequences that come with it).

That said, I went too far again. Just know that it was mever my intention to hurt anyone's feelings in my posts and I am sorry if my messages were interpreted that way. For the rest, since everything escalated after my first post, I would like to apologize for anything I said that could be deemed offensive or defamatory. It was in the heat of the moment, but my intention was only to defend AJorians and his hard work. However, my stance regarding criticisms of programs based on the used programming language remains the same as it has been since 2004 (although it no longer matters in this situation, seeing that it was a misunderstood and that until reading http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=152732#p152732 , I was not aware that the Ndless remark was not directly aimed at the author nor the program): In the past, the TI community was often divided by such criticisms. I think that Hayleia on TI-Planet perfectly sums up my opinion and I wish that I could have been able to word it that well:

Quote from: Hayleia
Même si ce n'était pas méchant, et que c'était juste un petit regret, le soulignement d'une petite tache verte sur le tableau rose, ça fait quand même un peu "c'est dommage que personne ne pourra y jouer alors qu'ils auraient pu, franchement, sur un jeu comme ça" (en moins violent évidemment). Je ne dis pas que c'est faux, encore une fois, juste que moi, si j'étais AJOrians et si je lisais ça, je me dirais "bon ben personne n'y jouera, j'arrête de le coder, et je le refais pas en Lua, j'ai pas envie de le recoder", et lors de mon prochain jeu, je me dirais "vais pas le faire en C, on va me le 'reprocher' (même si ce n'est pas un reproche), mais pas en Lua non plus ça va être moins beau" et finalement je vais arrêter de coder.

Also thanks to Critor for the apologies. Sadly I am unsure what more that can be done for now besides my apologies here and in the TI-Planet thread, since the harm is already done and knowing my situation, so anyone thinks I should go from TI-Planet, then I will do it. However, if that's the case, maybe a ban there might be in order, in case I run into some controversial thread and am too tempted to participate. The only other solution I can find is to only post in English on TI-Planet from now on to reduce risks of misunderstandings (since the Quebec<>France language barrier seems even worse than English<>French).

Anyway, for me, the whole thing is settled, so if anyone wants to lock this topic again, feel free to do it.

Offline AssemblyBandit

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Re: Language wars (SOLVED, split from nDealOrNoDeal thread)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 04:02:40 am »
@Critor: Hopefully most people are intelligent enough to follow the link through. Just a misunderstanding and thanks Juju for the translation.

To be clearer than the last paragraph of critor's post: admins, make DJ_O cool down, or face reduced newsing activity by critor & Adriweb (and thereby reduced activity of your entire board). Lower activity due to a single person out of his mind is the last thing the community needs, needless to say.
Really??? Ha!

Yeah, this topic should probably be deleted and probably should have been locked!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 04:03:55 am by AssemblyBandit »