Author Topic: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates  (Read 22818 times)

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Offline qazz42

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 06:23:37 pm »
I have to agree with tifreak here. It *was* a perfectly orderly and fine debate topic, ON CEMETECH, now it is portrayed as:

"LOL AXE IS ST00PIDZ AND OMNIMAGA SUXS BECAUSE N00BS. CEMETECH DCS ASM FTW!!!!!"

seriously, it is really close to, if not already, indirectly bashing cemetech. It is almost like you didn't even read the entire topic/post because you seemed to have missed the entire point of the thread in the first place
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 06:40:35 pm by qazz42 »

Offline KermMartian

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 06:33:43 pm »
Indeed, the danger is that when an ideological leader of a site posts an opinion on a thread, especially when I feel that opinion is based on biased past history rather than a fair reading of the pros and cons presented in a very intelligent debate thread, members will often automatically agree rather than making their own judgments.  Luckily, I see some more free thinking here. I appreciate, for example, that Freyaday accurately read my point in the thread that Axe is a good tool for some jobs (grayscale games, for example) but is not a panacea.  Xeda as well says exactly what I was trying to get at in the thread.

Quote from: DJ
Another thing that I found ironic is how after DCS added xLIB backwards compatibility, Kerm encouraged people to use ASM libs for BASIC coders, while years ago, the very same person would discourage the usage of such libs in BASIC. (See Metroid II Evolution news comments on ticalc.org)
Yes indeed, I used to be strongly anti-Hybrid BASIC.  I have since changed my opinion, since over time I saw the value of such libraries, and it was my newfound appreciation that led to their inclusion in Doors CS 7.

Quote from: albert
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.
Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.

Quote from: Hayleia
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at it
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
You'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular.  Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community.  I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back.  I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.

DJ_O: Regarding your first post in the topic, I encourage you at least to have the courage to name me directly instead of saying things like "some people" repeatedly.  You'll noticed that only I expressed any reservations at all about Axe, and if you read through the topic, you'll see that a very high-brow, mature, and intelligent discussion was being conducted on both sides of the table.  Well-thought-out posts were being made, and everyone was being respectful of each other as programmers and as individuals.  I'm sorry to see that you elected to imply that Cemetech as a whole was at fault despite my disclaimer warning that I am Kerm, I am not Cemetech, and that Cemetech by definitely has a wide variety of views on Axe ranging from abject adoration to skepticism, with each member having the freedom to make their own decision.

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 06:36:35 pm »
It didn't seem that bad, I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up over. ???

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 06:45:21 pm »
It didn't seem that bad, I don't see what everyone is getting so worked up over. ???
I agree, I thought we were holding a very respectful and intelligent discussion until this thread was brought to my attention. :( I'm saddened to see that from DJ_O's perspective, it was neither respectful, reasoned, nor intelligent.  DJ_O, please let me know if there's anything I can do to improve your view of the thread in question as well as of as 12-year community pillar such as myself, other than changing my opinion of Axe's role in the community as a language for writing games.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 06:46:23 pm by KermMartian »



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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 06:51:10 pm »
I agree as well with parser padwan. To be honest, the one thread on TICalc was a bit out of hand, but otherwise I didn't see much that was bad. I do think that it wasn't fair what some people said on Cemetech, but they argued their points and others counter argued and it seemed like not too many people got worked up about it. I was even surprised at the openmindedness there. But otherwise, it does seem like the arguments here and ideas are generally mature and openminded, too. Some people, though... they seem to have been some of those that got worked up about this petty debate and seem to be overreacting a bit (that is just my opinion).

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 08:45:00 pm »
Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.

And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.

So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
Strongly agree - I actually agreed (along with a few others?) on IRC for the topic to be created, since people were discussing it that much, and so I can personally vouch for Axe. :) And so far, I don't see much community bashing (if any at all), which is good. There are a few people at Cemetech (ex-Omnimagans?) who might spark a community fight due to past biases, but so far, so good. :)

Quote from: albert
I have a feeling that it *might* have to do with last year's PoTY, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions.
Glad you didn't jump to conclusions; I had completely forgotten about that.
I am glad that this debate was solely dependent on the basis of the language itself, not on communities or past experiences. :) The above feeling was only minor suspect after seeing a few other replies.
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Offline LincolnB

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 10:40:37 pm »
Seriously, I use Axe ALL THE TIME (I haven't touched ASM and left BASIC a looooong time ago), so you might expect me of all people to get at least a little worked up about this, but really, I'm having a hard time getting mad at anyone. I don't think it's quite fair to get mad at DJ_O because I think in large part he made this topic for precautionary purposes mostly, so yeah. Keep in mind, all this is just something to keep an eye out for.
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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 11:11:35 pm »
As someone that has remained neutral in the whole matter, I have to point out that I rather dislike the fact you blatantly pointed out in such a manner, and I quote:

Quote
However, it seems that some people do not realize that certain people just like to program games because they like making them, not always because they love challenges of programming that some languages provide.

And linking it directly to the Cemetech thread with that text.

Omnimaga was not once mentioned in his post, and to that end, wasn't saying people shouldn't use Axe.

I am rather sad to see that you would word it out in such a way, DJ.
False. Totally false. I pointed to the Cemetech thread because that was the most recent example of non-ASM language vs ASM generalizations that I saw occuring. The most recent similar issue that occured elsewhere than Cemetech was 6 years ago. I could not find anything recent on TI-BD, TI-Freakware and United-TI. I do not like being accused of saying that Cemetech bashes anything, when through my post, I refer many times to "some people".
The discussion on the thread has remained in an intelligent conversation with different people posting their views. It has not once turned in to an 'OMG YOU SHOULDN'T USE AXE IT SUCKS' thread.
The Ashbad quote in Kerm's post tells me otherwise. He didn't directly said nobody should use it, but it was pretty close, and I quote:
Quote
[Ashbad] While I have my complaints about Grammer (I still am unimpressed with the fact that simple cellular autonoma routines built into the language...) I am personally hopeful it'll be the cause of Axe losing it's heated popularity
While he doesn't want everyone to stop using Axe, he hopes it becomes as less popular as possible

Quote
Anyway I'M kinda glad that here we do not single out our programmers just because of the language they use to create games.

Was anyone really singled out, beyond Quigibo, Albertho and Ashbad? No one was being picked on directly, only opinions and views were being expressed, discussed and debated.
They were not picked on directly, but generalizations were made:

Quote
<KermM_> I dislike that people use it as an excuse for not learning z80 ASM
Quote
[Ashbad] But, the problem is that half of the community treats them as "uber hax0rs"
Quote
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them
This is exactly like when some people say "BASIC games sucks", implying that every existing BASIC games (including Pokémon Purple, FFTOM2 and Illusiat 13) sucks. What about Axe coders like Builderboy, Leafiness0, Runer112 and some others? If someone said BASIC games sucks I would be offended since I devoted a lot of time making some that are as good as possible, unlike many games on ticalc.org.

And for all of you others that might read this, remember, KermMartian is NOT the embodiment of Cemetech. The users are Cemetech. And you will see there is a lot of pro user posts for Axe that have given him counter arguments.
I have read that and knew it already before you mention it. Also even the individual users are not Cemetech: If one invididual there bashes Axe, it doesn't mean Cemetech does. Hence why my post refers to "some people" (as I mentionned above).

Quote
So instead of bashing Kerm or Cemetech by only posting snippets instead of the whole discussion, go read it all for yourself, see what is said, what is agreed to, and what arguments are made against other aspects.
I never did that. I did criticise him a bit, but I posted a link to the entire discussion (if you know how to read, you should have seen it. I even linked to it TWICE!) so everyone can read it all by themselves. I also linked to old ticalc.org examples so people see that this issue is not something from yesterday.

Before accusing me of trying to bash Cemetech or anything like that, you should re-read my post like I did with the 3 or so posts I saw on Cemetech when I initially posted this, because this was clearly not my intention. My intention was to bring up the whole BASIC/Axe vs ASM generalizations that I had to go through before and that is still going on in the community. Thank you.

I have rated down your post because it was a blantant accusation towards me and I wonder if it wasn't an attempt at making me mad by lashing at me.

DJ_O: Regarding your first post in the topic, I encourage you at least to have the courage to name me directly instead of saying things like "some people" repeatedly.  You'll noticed that only I expressed any reservations at all about Axe, and if you read through the topic, you'll see that a very high-brow, mature, and intelligent discussion was being conducted on both sides of the table.  Well-thought-out posts were being made, and everyone was being respectful of each other as programmers and as individuals.  I'm sorry to see that you elected to imply that Cemetech as a whole was at fault despite my disclaimer warning that I am Kerm, I am not Cemetech, and that Cemetech by definitely has a wide variety of views on Axe ranging from abject adoration to skepticism, with each member having the freedom to make their own decision.
The reason why I did not name you directly is because in the past when I gave names directly, it made things worse. I did not go "Cemetech said that" either because the people involved are not Cemetech, as you and tifreak said. I admit however that the Ashbad comments kinda blew a fuse so when I wrote my post last night I was already irritated to begin with. However I do not like the accusation from tifreak implying that I am blatantly trying to bash people or trying to start drama.

Offline TravisE

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2011, 11:29:55 pm »
Without speaking for anyone else, I think it is entirely possible that people could have honestly misunderstood the intention of linking to the Cemetech thread.  Even I wasn't totally clear on whether you were referring to the thread as a whole, posts in the thread, or just the comments from IRC in the first post, and this was when I read the post before anyone had replied yet. It seems several people have misunderstood, and not all of them may be attempting to purposely falsely accuse; they could have simply misunderstood, especially given past incidents where there were misunderstandings.
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Offline qazz42

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 06:55:15 am »
ah, but the thing is that the entire discussion on cemetech was actually a peacefull discussion with each side giving their side of the story and everyone respecting each other's decision. I would think the topic on cemetech was not peaceful and was a bunch of snobs bashing axe if I only had read this topic.

/opinion

Offline Xeda112358

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 07:16:18 am »
@qazz42: This topic was also rather peaceful. I admit I skimmed through a bunch of posts, but give us evidence of your claims

Offline KermMartian

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 08:45:54 am »
Xeda: Exacerbated by some of the veiled and not-so-veiled (thanks, Hayleia, whomever you are, and of course DJ_O), I found this thread to be very antagonistic and exactly the sort of bashing that I had believe Omnimaga did not allow. Qazz42: indeed, which is why I encourage anyone reading this thread to read the Cemetech thread as well and form their own opinion.  The fact that a user who frequents Omnimaga more than Cemetech (alberthro) was one of the individuals encouraging us to open a frank, respectful dialog should also help people see that any perceived insults lie more in the mind of the beholder than the participants.

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 08:56:49 am »
Too lazy to read everything posted here but...

Axe is great.  There are little to no cons in it, as it provides what the people that use it need.  If they want to learn something deeper, then they can, but i see no reason to learn asm just to never use it again.  some use it, but there is no reason to make it seem required.

I think the biggest problem is ti.
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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2011, 10:55:32 am »
I actually can understand DJ_O's first post quite good. He seems frustrated after reading your post, Kerm, and so do I.

If AXE wouldn't have been created, I think much less people would have joined the community, just because it seems to them that ASM is too difficult to learn for them. If a new program language is created which makes things go easier without having to learn much more it's obvious to me to go for that language. I don't know ASM and it doesn't seem to be the easiest language to learn. But do I have to learn it? Do I have to know that language to be able to accomplish what I want to do? To make the programs I want to do? No, I don't think so. For me, I'll have enough on AXE, Newprog and ti-basic. Does this make me a bad programmer? I don't think so. I will know less at programming than others. So what? :) The cool thing is, I don't need to know more. And since when must all programmers be hackers? If I'm no hacker does this make me less? Am I kicked out for that reason? That would be unfair in my eyes.
Many people here(I think) do programming for their hobby and don't think of having it as their job. If they do they most likely will have to use C, so then I can understand it that it's actually better to learn a 'real' language such as C.
Quigibo did a great job making AXE. He made a new language that in some way could replace ASM and C! People who aren't great programmers have the right to be able to program a nice game. And it isn't like you're not a good programmer if you know AXE.

It seems to me that some ASM programmers are jealous that 'simple people', unlike them, can make GREAT games and programs without going trough what they did.
Actually reading what Kerm quoted of himself in that first post(on cemetech) it sounds like programming shouldn't be made easy:
Quote
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them
If it would be like that, you actually forbid programmers with not good skills to make good games. I totally don't agree with you and I hope you change your opinion, which you are allowed to keep though.

If the ASM community looks like that I'm not really attracted to join it. :(
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 11:06:26 am by Stefan Bauwens »


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Offline Hayleia

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Re: Anti-Axe/BASIC mentality/debates
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2011, 10:55:54 am »
Quote from: Hayleia
People who think a language is worth more than another are just like people who only like one kind of music (quite the same example as DJ_O said but not exactly): narrow minded. Why not saying this, when we are at it
"No seriously, you are not a good coder until you can write your program in native hex."
That is nonsense.
We can make good programs in every languages and make bad programs in every language too.
And I find it funny from Kerm to say this about Axe after making DoorsCS
   <KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
   <KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge
   executables
But at least he didn't speak about speed.
You'll notice that everyone in the intelligent discussion on Cemetech was careful to discuss only the languages, not insult any coders in particular.  Everyone in this community has value as a coder and as a person, and singling anyone out for insults is in poor spirit as a member of a larger community.  I encourage you to post a topic on Cemetech discussing your concerns with the size and/or speed of Doors CS to my face so that I can explain the number of features painstakingly packed into its 48KB rather than cowardly insulting me behind my back.  I try to make an effort to be brave enough to speak to people directly when I want to discuss their programs, and I look forward to a future positive relationship with you as a member of the larger TI community (and perhaps Cemetech) if you'd like to join me.
(Sorry for the delay for the answer and sorry if my English is not good, I am French.)

So I'll explain better the situation:

Omnimaga is, in one way, Axe's home, and the same way, Cemetech is DoorsCS' home.
On Cemetech, you criticized Axe.
On Omnimaga, I said that some of your critics could apply to DoorsCS.
So we basically did the same thing.

Result of my action, you feel insulted.
So don't you think Axe coders can feel insulted by what you said too ?

I did not intend to insult you at all and you did not intend to insult anyone either, but that's how people feel, and you now know exactly how they feel (that was the aim of my post, not to "cowardly insult you in your back", moreover I use DoorsCS).
...any perceived insults lie more in the mind of the beholder than the participants.

And of course I'd like to join Cemetech. Notice that I have been having an account for months, but I'm lost through the menus and even with the link I did not manage to figure out how to introduce myself .__.° (this is not a stupid excuse: this is true)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 11:35:01 am by Hayleia »
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