Author Topic: nSpiKx - TI-Nspire emulator for Mac OS X (Cocoa)  (Read 53945 times)

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Offline DJ Omnimaga

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2012, 09:45:49 pm »
As Eeems said only a few people were voicing negative opinions about the software. I myself did too, but when I saw you didn't change your mind I stopped. I may not agree with your views, but it doesn't mean I'll constantly reprimand SpiroH about his actions. That would border on harrassment (in fact, maybe it is, per USA/Canada's definition, but I could be wrong).

I think one main main misunderstood here, that goes way beyond conflicting opinions, is that certain TI community members are convinced that SpiroH's only intention with KarmTI/nSpiKx is to flat-out compete directly against nspire_emu in order to get an ego boost, a common practice among past TI programmers on ticalc.org (and their friends... who don't remember all the Noshell bashing there from CalcUtil fanboys, despite the fact CalcUtil used plenty of code from Noshell?). SpiroH's latest post (specifically the 3rd line about his intention to let people's benefit from his work) states otherwise. With the knowledge that SpiroH has no bad intentions by keeping his software closed-source, I think all he did was having a strong opinion that is opposite to some people's view.

And everyone is entitled to their own views/opinions, although of course Omni has rules about how you can voice it (eg no harrassing behaviour, forcing people to do stuff they don't want to, forcing people to change their opinions or even being rude), and even if anyone disagrees with someone else, it doesn't mean the other person has to change his view, and if convincing him to do so doesn't work after a while, then IMHO the issue is closed.

In the future, it would be nice if any debate for/against open-source would be kept in a  separate thread and if anyone has a problem with a forum member, then he should deal with it via PM or report him to a moderator. It would also be nice if people stopped posting ragequit messages in response to such small group of people or even in response to moderation, when there are many other forum members you can enjoy being with. It's not like Omnimaga encourages hostility: There's even a notice on the front page discouraging it.

Why is VirtualTI dead today for example, although it was a reference years ago? Because it was closed-source, and because the authors stopped updating it.
Small correction, VTI source is actually on ticalc.org ;) http://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/85/8554.html (it's outdated, though)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:28:35 pm by DJ_O »

Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2012, 03:00:28 am »
Quote
Right now, I'm really considering whether or not i should simply go away
Assuming you are really considering leaving (*), I strongly doubt you'll conclude that you should simply go away without releasing the source code of your work - lest you want to prove us right in retrospect and damage your reputation even further ;)
But if you conclude that you should go away rather than trying to work cooperatively with upstream nspire_emu and efficiently help making the best possible Nspire emulator (that's what we're all asking for, the best explanation was probably Hayleia's above, as shown by the high number of upvotes it received) - IOW, if you don't want to make a more than welcome departure from your current obstructive behaviour - then so be it.

One thing that you might want to take into account when thinking about what you should do, is that I, and the others who agree with me, will be right (for the sake of the community) both ways, whether you release the source code or you don't:
* if you don't, we'll have been right to ask, and later warn against your versions;
* if you do, we'll have been right to pressure you into becoming a more useful member of the community.


Quote
Since people have not gotten the message that this is something that should not be pushed in a public place, the next person to downtalk someone for their choice on if they release their source code gets a 1 day temp ban.
Don't you think that this kind of moderator decisions will make people just use other ways and venues than Omnimaga to get SpiroH to behave more constructively, because that's in the community's best interests ?
As you know, in the TI community, I seldom complain that a community program is closed-source, and besides, I usually choose softer forms of expression. The admittedly increasingly hardball play, in this occurrence, is done because it is important that everybody can get the best open-source community Nspire emulator, and because it is flat out silly that anyone would have to waste time reinventing SpiroH's working wheel. I'm trying various tricks to try and prevent that outcome. Being polite didn't work, playing hardball hasn't yet worked.

Quote
and all you get here for your work are just allegations and hostilities
You seem to have missed that, once again, that our posts (including this one, and the one from yesterday morning which triggered the current discussion) do acknowledge the useful bits of his work...

Quote
certain TI community members are convinced that SpiroH's only intention with KarmTI/nSpiKx is to flat-out compete directly against nspire_emu in order to get an ego boost, a common practice among past TI programmers on ticalc.org
We think that there are no valid reasons for what he's doing, only bad reasons, excuses and pretexts. Ego (trying to make one's indispensable) is definitely one of the possible causes of not releasing the source code and/or nor behaving constructively.
Why are we attributing an ego to SpiroH, though it's possible that it's not his motivation ? Simply by experience: over time, in the TI community, as DJ_O indicates, we've seen some technically capable persons with large egos, and the harm their behaviour created in the community.

Indeed, VTI's source code is outdated, which is why critor indicated that it's closed-source (for practical purposes) :)

(*): over time, in the TI community, we saw several perverts who had no intention to either fix their wrong ways or leave, but nevertheless threatened to leave. I'm not stating that you're one of them, just that such statements remind me of bogus threats I read in the past.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:19:52 am by Lionel Debroux »
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Offline critor

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2012, 03:54:20 am »
Indeed, VTI's source code is outdated, which is why critor indicated that it's closed-source (for practical purposes) :)

I never found any source for the latest VTI 3.0 alpha, which was the first version to support the TI-83 Plus Flash memory.

A major improvement over VTI 2.5 beta, and sadly nothing more ever.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 03:56:38 am by critor »
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Offline Hayleia

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2012, 06:43:45 am »
In response to SpiroH and fhub, no, it is not always the same people who answer since that was the first time I said something about it. And SpiroH didn't only get allegations and hostilities, at first he had compliments and politely-asked request about source code or using the last version of nspire_emu. All the askers got was a "no", and not a "no because..." so the askers asked again and got the same answer so they asked again, etc, and we are still at the same point.

In fact, what people want is not the source code, they want to see karmTI with the latest version of nspire_emu, but since you don't do it, they ask for the source to do it themselves, and this is where you get angry.
And leaving would be even more stupid because no one would be able to add the latest version of nspire_emu to karmTI sonce you would be gone and others wouldn't have the source code.

So SpiroH, I can understand why you don't release the source code, you can be afraid of code stealers. But why don't you use the latest version of nspire_emu ? I mean, using the last version would make your emu better so why avoiding it ?
If you give an answer to that question, the askers will certainly let you alone, and that would be the solution (and not leaving).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 06:46:13 am by Hayleia »
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Offline critor

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2012, 07:37:41 am »
fhub
But why don't you use the latest version of nspire_emu ?
Well, it seems you're missing one important point: where is this 'latest version' of nspire_emu???

Lionel gave the link to the updated source in a similar topic. He got no reply.
It seems you missed that too.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 07:39:04 am by critor »
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2012, 07:38:48 am »
Quote
Although one member here (the one who complained most) has mentioned several times that newer nspire_emu versions would exist,
They do.

Quote
but he never said where this newer version(s) could be downloaded.
You're having it backwards again, Franz: there's no improved public version of nspire_emu (at least the very latest version, with GDBstub, Nspire CAS+, RS232 input support and other stuff) because of SpiroH's closed-source fork.

Quote
So how can anyone complain that SpiroH won't use the latest nspire_emu, when he simply has no chance to get it anywhere???
Of course he has a chance to get it. He just has to work with upstream, which, AFAICT, he hasn't tried to do, despite my indications.
As one of the contributors to upstream, I'd probably know if he had tried.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 07:56:30 am by Lionel Debroux »
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Offline TIfanx1999

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2012, 07:56:01 am »
I'd like to take a moment to quote a sentence from our rules page;
Quote from: Omnimaga
Omnimaga is a site dedicated to calculator and computer game programming and music creation of any kind. Our goal is to provide a discussion environment free from hostility, allowing all coders to learn, help others, show off their projects, and discuss community-related news.
I know that those of you that would like this to be an open source fork have good intentions. I understand you want this project to be able to take advantage of the best of both worlds. I get that, I really do. But some of you are going on borderline harassment. That certainly does not create a friendly hostility free environment and very much goes against the spirit of Omnimaga. I'd like to ask that for the time being you cease the discussion of bringing this fork to open source. Whether you like it or not it its Spiro's choice, and obviously the insistence that this fork be made open source has gone nowhere. Thank you. :)

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2012, 08:29:24 am »
Lionel gave the link to the updated source in a similar topic.
Where? Can you provide a link?

All I've read from him (at least in the kArmTI thread) was something like "If you (SpiroH) don't give us your sources we'll not publish new nspire_emu source anymore". Just childish ...




Please, do *not* treat us as childish.

If SpiroH has the right, according to you, to use other's work in a non-mutual way, then the others have the right to stop updating, temporarily (if a new licence has to be chosen for future updates) or even permanently.


And I'd really like to see the next nspire_emu version released. It's wonderful with CAS+ emulation and RS232 input support!


That very last version remains private for now (build and source).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 08:35:06 am by critor »
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Offline Lionel Debroux

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2012, 08:31:11 am »
AOC: have you (Omnimaga moderators and admins in general), considered that by clamping down on such discussions to try and (fail to) create a hostility-free environment, you are helping the original trouble-maker, the disrespectful person who started it all, to keep being disrespectful to an entire community ?
As critor and others explained, a closed-source fork of an open-source program precisely goes against another part of the very rule you're quoting: "allowing all coders to learn, help others".
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Offline critor

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2012, 08:53:36 am »
If SpiroH has the right, according to you, to use other's work in a non-mutual way, then the others have the right to stop updating, temporarily (if a new licence has to be chosen for future updates) or even permanently.
Absolutely correct! But then nobody can complain that SpiroH doesn't use this 'new' updates!
How should he if they aren't released?


The very last version has not been released and it's a pity - yes.

But I've never said that previous versions source code wasn't available publicly.

Offline excale

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2012, 08:57:49 am »
So SpiroH, I can understand why you don't release the source code, you can be afraid of code stealers.

I'd just like to get back on this point.

What could a code stealer make with the source code? There is no money/patents/ect involved here, so... the only thing the would be able to do would be publishing some closed-source software using the source code he got. Isn't that exactly what SpiroH made?

PS: It's not because nspire_emu has no licence that it is morally correct to do so.

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2012, 09:00:26 am »
AOC: have you (Omnimaga moderators and admins in general), considered that by clamping down on such discussions to try and (fail to) create a hostility-free environment, you are helping the original trouble-maker, the disrespectful person who started it all, to keep being disrespectful to an entire community ?
As critor and others explained, a closed-source fork of an open-source program precisely goes against another part of the very rule you're quoting: "allowing all coders to learn, help others".
I don't see any "trouble maker" nor anyone who is being disrespectful. All I see is a coder wishing to release a fork of the Nspire emu that is easy to use. It's not a rule I quote either, more of a mission statement of what we are about. I understand that it is your opinion that this project would be much better open source, however it is his choice to do so. While it is true that others could possibly learn something from the source, this project is not directly impeding anyone from learning and to suggest such is just silly. Furthermore this topic is about the current release of nSpiKx. Not whether or not you or anyone else thinks it should be open source. Let's not get any more of topic on this thread than we already have.
*Edit* And seriously people stop with all the negative downrate spamming. It's getting ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:04:56 am by Art_of_camelot »

Offline Scipi

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2012, 09:21:28 am »
Hmm. I only saw this topic today, but here's what I'm getting so far.

SpiroH forked the original nSpire_emu and added a host of new features to it, but also made it closed sourced. This is the major point of controversy.

Now, aside from all the bickering and passive aggressiveness to outright hostility, something people need to consider: some of the reasons why he wants to keep it closed sourced. I'm sure he's already stated his reasons (I couldn't find what thread this debate started in, however) but here's some (probably very likely) reasons. One, he wants to be the only one coding it. Which makes sense, he knows his code best, he wants the experience of developing the tool, and he'll be in control of everything going on. Another reason, is what if he wants to bring some of his code into a professional career? Some of his code (from what I gather) can be useful in other projects. If his work is closed source, he would be able to use his code to bolster his potential career. If the code was open sourced, it would be more difficult to do so, since it's not entirely his code anymore and it's part of the public domain. The point I'm getting at, is there are many factors leading into his decision, and we should be respectful of that, even if we disagree.

Now onto the other stuff.

Something I'm seeing is the attitude that his decision hurts the community when in fact, it doesn't. It doesn't help, but not helping doesn't mean hurting either. What is hurting however, is the fact that the issue is being thrown in SpiroH's face and the fact that you guys are basically ganging up on him. I mean, really. Disrespectful posts being uprated? And even his second release in this thread was downrated?! I'm sorry to say it, but that's just shameful in my eyes. Just because he has an opinion some don't agree with, doesn't mean we should act like children in a petty squabble. SpiroH is about to leave this community. How are you helping it by making him do that?

Also, something to point out to what critor had mentioned earlier (not to call you out, critor. I just don't know how many people share this view. I'm not trying to attack you directly with this)

Quote
If SpiroH has the right, according to you, to use other's work in a non-mutual way

Everything that is others work is still publicly available in their own releases. Everything closed source, is SpiroH's work. Let me make an analogy, I have in my hand a soda can. If I take a marker to it and update the design, that new design is based off of the old one, yes, however, the changes are my own and I control whether or not I share it. The original design is still available by simply finding a new soda can. Honestly, I can but it this bluntly, it's SpiroH's work, his choice. If you guys want an open sourced version, then make the effort on your own part, don't attack someone who put effort into his own version and chooses not to share it.

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Offline Vijfhoek

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2012, 10:33:03 am »
As far as I know, nspire_emu is public domain. This makes it perfectly fine for people to fork it and close-source it. If it had a licence, it'd be an entire different story.

So people, please just quit whining at eachother, download the emulator if you have a Mac, and be happy.

Offline Hayleia

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Re: nSpiKx - TI-nSpire emulator for Mac os x (Cocoa)
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2012, 10:52:16 am »
SpiroH forked the original nSpire_emu and added a host of new features to it, but also made it closed sourced. This is the major point of controversy.
That is not the only point. My point is why use an outdated version of nspire_emu ? If he made karmTI and nSpiKx, it was to add features to nspire_emu, no ? So why not using the version of nspire_emu that has the most features ? ???
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